Kobe Bryant dead in helicopter crash

Bell206 said:
No you didn't, hence my question. I've found it's also best to quantify a persons response based on their experience. Which now explains the second part of the quote above.

Curious, as a business owner, do you have cameras on your employees now? A camera in your office perhaps?
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My business was a gun store / Pawn shop and employee theft was common in the 30 years it was open. Sometimes we caught them some we didn't some had systems where they worked with people who came into the store it was a family business. You can't trust anyone as a business owner, or you will be out of business just the way it is have to accept it. Most employees take advantage of you in someways or risk your business have to manage it. We sold it all in 2007 no longer in business now. There was no office had to keep an eye on things.
 
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kell490 said:
You can't trust anyone as a business owner,
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Without drifting this thread too much, I understand your point. However, after 30+ years of having worked for someone and 15+ year of having employed someone, I found it was a two-way street. You reap what you sow in both directions. But in aviation, the cameras would be there solely to tie off loose ends in an accident investigation vs to monitor employee behavior. Big difference.
 
Door bell picked up the sound of the helicopter and crash
 
kell490 said:
Door bell picked up the sound of the helicopter and crash
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I'm not sure what I was expecting, but not that. Sounded like it was flying slowly, but maybe its just hard to tell from audio.
 
The NTSB DCA20MA059 Kobe Bryant "Investigative Update."
 

Attachments

  • NTSB DCA20MA059 Investigative Update - Kobe Bryant.pdf
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Impressive update from the NTSB put out so many facts so soon.
 
GRG55 said:
I've not ever been left with impression the investigators at the NTSB didn't try to do the best they could with whatever they had to work with.
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Thoe folks with whom I've talked would disagree. Indeed. one of them posted his thoughts here on POA.

GRG55 said:
I don't imagine it's a wonderful way to spend your time...sifting through the burned out remains or scattered debris of shattered aircraft and the people that were in them. I'd be awful surprised if any of them take what they do lightly.
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It's their job, paid for by you and me. Cry me a river.

GRG55 said:
The criticism of the NTSB I read on this board is misplaced.
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And you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how misinformed.
 
Wow. Preliminary report is hard to read, there goes the malfunction ideas. Pilot error and CFIT
 
So, I just read the whole update pdf. Pretty good read, with some very good info for this early into the investigation. I have to say, at first I was thinking "yeah this guy was just stupid and didn't know what he was doing". But...

The pilot, age 50, had worked for Island Express for about 10 years. According to FAA records,
the pilot held an FAA commercial certificate with ratings for helicopter and instrument
helicopter, as well as an FAA instructor certificate for flight, instrument, and ground instruction.

His most recent FAA second-class medical certificate was issued on July 3, 2019, with a
limitation stating, “must have glasses for near vision.” At the time of his last medical application,
he reported 8,200 total hours of flight experience. The pilot logged about 1,250 total hours in the
S76 helicopter. His most recent flight review, including proficiency training in inadvertent entry
into instrument meteorological conditions (IIMC) and unusual attitude recovery, was conducted
in a helicopter with EUROSAFETY International on May 8, 2019. The pilot received
satisfactory grades for these maneuvers.
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And looking at the other evidence, including the flight path (particularly the last few minutes) and witness testimony, and the other pics of the weather at the time, well. I kinda feel like he did what one is supposed to do in IIMC situation, climb and turn around. But sure looks like he got disoriented and did the whole "start of the death spiral" to the left. If he had kept it in a CLIMBING turn he would have missed the hills. I have a feeling he did the whole pull up thing, and tightened his spiral.

Disclaimer - not IFR pilot and not rotorcraft. BUT just completed my BFR and spent some time on this exact scenario.
I guess my point is - even a 8,200 hour pilot with 1250 in this bird, in this area, can get screwed when IIMC happens. Really pretty eye opening to me. (you can argue all day about whether he should have turned around sooner, but it's possible for any of us to find ourselves in a rapid loss of visibility situation. Hopefully not at 700AGL but still... Death spirals happen at any altitude and recovery is not common)
 
jbrinker said:
So, I just read the whole update pdf. Pretty good read, with some very good info for this early into the investigation. I have to say, at first I was thinking "yeah this guy was just stupid and didn't know what he was doing". But...



And looking at the other evidence, including the flight path (particularly the last few minutes) and witness testimony, and the other pics of the weather at the time, well. I kinda feel like he did what one is supposed to do in IIMC situation, climb and turn around. But sure looks like he got disoriented and did the whole "start of the death spiral" to the left. If he had kept it in a CLIMBING turn he would have missed the hills. I have a feeling he did the whole pull up thing, and tightened his spiral.

Disclaimer - not IFR pilot and not rotorcraft. BUT just completed my BFR and spent some time on this exact scenario.
I guess my point is - even a 8,200 hour pilot with 1250 in this bird, in this area, can get screwed when IIMC happens. Really pretty eye opening to me. (you can argue all day about whether he should have turned around sooner, but it's possible for any of us to find ourselves in a rapid loss of visibility situation. Hopefully not at 700AGL but still... Death spirals happen at any altitude and recovery is not common)
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IIMC procedure in a helicopter does not call for climb and turn around.

Low level in deteriorating conditions surrounded by terrain left him with very few options.
 
Doc Holliday said:
IIMC procedure in a helicopter does not call for climb and turn around.

Low level in deteriorating conditions surrounded by terrain left him with very few options.
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Except that, prior to the descent, he was an eyeblink from being above the murk.
 
Doc Holliday said:
What's the old saying about being close and horse shoes?
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Yes, but all he needed to do was continue what he was doing. Why did he not? We can guess, and the NTSB can guess, but anyone who knows is dead and buried.
 
Yeah, really sucks. And definitely I'm not a helicopter pilot. But I wonder if he did what many of us might, and completely lost track of where he was in space, maybe even thought "I dont want to hit the hills in front of me" and climbed and unintentionally began a left turn (he did radio "climbing to 4000" not "turning back"). Then the whole "JFK Jr" spacial disorientation hit him and he "pulled up" tightening his turn and spiraling to the left.

Speculation is really just hangar flying this flight track right now anyway, but I think more about what can be learned by the rest of us.

Certainly I would not want to be at 700AGL and go IIMC. But in a helicopter it sure seems like the best case - Slow down, climb like crazy. Hell you can hover! I think he was aware of the tops of the layer (at least in general). Man, human factors... Makes me want to get my IFR ticket (probably starting soon).
 
jbrinker said:
And looking at the other evidence, including the flight path (particularly the last few minutes) and witness testimony, and the other pics of the weather at the time, well. I kinda feel like he did what one is supposed to do in IIMC situation, climb and turn around. But sure looks like he got disoriented and did the whole "start of the death spiral" to the left. If he had kept it in a CLIMBING turn he would have missed the hills. I have a feeling he did the whole pull up thing, and tightened his spiral.
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It's very possible he was not prepared to enter IMC. I know others will point out that there are reports that he said he was going to climb through the clouds to go 'on top'. I've not heard this recording, but accepting the reports for now. However, it is entirely possible he went IIMC first, then called to say he was going to climb on top, then with all the distractions going on, including the radio, did not perform his scan, got spatial disorientation, and perceived the tightening turn to the left as straight and level flight.

When entering IIMC these are the order of your priorities
1. Commit to IFR, get on the instruments. (Fly the Aircraft)
2. Initiate a climb, preferably towards known lower terrain.
3. Communicate with ATC. If you do not have the AC under control, talking to ATC will not help you and very well may make things worse.

Just like many other types of flying, when flying IFR/IMC, hours and ratings don't really equate to anything. What's more important is experience in those conditions, and more importantly, currency and proficiency.

jbrinker said:
it's possible for any of us to find ourselves in a rapid loss of visibility situation. Hopefully not at 700AGL but still... Death spirals happen at any altitude and recovery is not common)
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The great thing about helicopters is that they are not airplanes. You don't have to rapidly encounter loss of visibility and you don't have to be at 700AGL. You can be at 5Kts and 5 Feet.

In a helicopter, when visibility goes down, Slow down and go down. You have all kinds of choices and options when you're moving very slowly.
 
Doc Holliday said:
IIMC procedure in a helicopter does not call for climb and turn around.

Low level in deteriorating conditions surrounded by terrain left him with very few options.
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Low level in deteriorating conditions at the speed he was traveling, surrounded by terrain left him with very few options.

just my opinion from someone who's been doing this for awhile.
 
SToL said:
Low level in deteriorating conditions at the speed he was traveling, surrounded by terrain left him with very few options.

just my opinion from someone who's been doing this for awhile.
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Agreed. And my opinion from someone who's well versed in the subject matter. ;)
 
jbrinker said:
I have a feeling he did the whole pull up thing, and tightened his spiral.
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During my years of experience as a helicopter instrument flight examiner for the Army, I noted that when pilots at the controls in IMC panicked, they always seemed to go into the fetal position from primal fear. Since their hands were firmly attached to the controls, guess what happened? The cyclic stick gets pulled back into the belly, nose goes up, and you start to see all white on the artificial horizon.
 
It's been said elsewhere in a video where an EMS pilot was reviewing this accident that a helicopter cannot be controlled in IMC using instruments when flying forward at less then 30 knots? Is this a fact?
 
kell490 said:
It's been said elsewhere in a video where an EMS pilot was reviewing this accident that a helicopter cannot be controlled in IMC using instruments when flying forward at less then 30 knots? Is this a fact?
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That’s been covered several times in the preceding 14 pages.
 
If this helicopter was truly going 165 kts. at one point, then "popped out of the clouds and rolled left", I'm wondering about retreating blade stall. Not that that would be anything other than the final nail.
 
kell490 said:
It's been said elsewhere in a video where an EMS pilot was reviewing this accident that a helicopter cannot be controlled in IMC using instruments when flying forward at less then 30 knots? Is this a fact?
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No that’s not fact. There’s a speed where the auto pilot disengages, ours is 44 kts. I forget what was said on the S76 but I believe it was 60 kts. So, common sense, you would not want to get slower than your AP speed. Now, aerodynamically, slow speed sucks as well for IMC. The slower you get (below max endurance) the less airflow around the aircraft (stability) and the more torque is pulled (induced drag). This means the pilot will have to work harder. As I stated earlier, unless you’re trying to do a brownout / whiteout takeoff, vertical thru IMC is not the way to go. You’d be making things more difficult on yourself and the reducing the aircraft’s excess power for climb.
 
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SToL said:
Low level in deteriorating conditions at the speed he was traveling, surrounded by terrain left him with very few options.

just my opinion from someone who's been doing this for awhile.
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Why was he headed into the canyon and rising terrain? If he had continued to follow the 101 freeway westbound, he would have been over the lowest point in the area. Spatial disorientation? Potential hole in the clouds? The question of why he went south, up into the canyon with rising terrain, will hopefully get answered in the final NTSB report.
 
As I much often tell non-aviation people (I got grilled seriously heading to my family reunion in Boston right after the JFKJr cash), it's not that people CAN'T fly on instruments that's the problem, is that they don't realize WHEN they need to be flying on insturments.
 
SoCal 182 Driver said:
Why was he headed into the canyon and rising terrain? If he had continued to follow the 101 freeway westbound, he would have been over the lowest point in the area. Spatial disorientation? Potential hole in the clouds? The question of why he went south, up into the canyon with rising terrain, will hopefully get answered in the final NTSB report.
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I doubt you will see the answer. The only one that knows that is dead.

Low visibility, deteriorating weather, delays, VIP passenger, etc all lead up to the PIC making some poor choices.
 
There are reports, including the one from Jennifer Homendy of the NTSB, stating that the pilot radioed that he was climbing above the clouds.

Has anyone heard the audio of this or know where this originated?
 
SToL said:
It's very possible he was not prepared to enter IMC. I know others will point out that there are reports that he said he was going to climb through the clouds to go 'on top'. I've not heard this recording, but accepting the reports for now.
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This is the wording from the 'investigative update':

At 0945, the pilot of N72EX again contacted SCT and advised he was climbing above cloud layers and requested advisory services. The second controller was not aware of the aircraft, as services had previously been terminated, so asked the pilot to identify the flight. The SCT controller then asked the pilot his intentions, to which he replied he was climbing to 4,000 feet. There were no further transmissions.

Certainly sounds like he was committed at some point to climb through the layer.
 
weilke said:
Certainly sounds like he was committed at some point to climb through the layer.
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To keep my comment you quoted in to context. Here's the rest of it.

However, it is entirely possible he went IIMC first, then called to say he was going to climb on top, then with all the distractions going on, including the radio, did not perform his scan, got spatial disorientation, and perceived the tightening turn to the left as straight and level flight.

"climbing above cloud layers and requesting advisory services" does not automatically imply he's in IMC.
 
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SToL said:
To keep my comment you quoted in to context. Here's the rest of it.

However, it is entirely possible he went IIMC first, then called to say he was going to climb on top, then with all the distractions going on, including the radio, did not perform his scan, got spatial disorientation, and perceived the tightening turn to the left as straight and level flight.

"climbing above cloud layers and requesting advisory services" does not automatically imply he's in IMC.
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Had he unintentionally entered the clouds, you would think he had the knowlege and experience to declare an emergency. By simply stating that he intended to climb to 4000, it appears more compatible with someone who just decided to climb through the layer to get where he wanted to get.
 
SToL said:
There are reports, including the one from Jennifer Homendy of the NTSB, stating that the pilot radioed that he was climbing above the clouds.

Has anyone heard the audio of this or know where this originated?
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I don't think the actual ATC audio has been released yet. The only audio we've heard was the LiveATC.net feed, in which after the flight switched from VNY to SoCal, only the controller could be heard.
 
I was flying at KCMA that morning shooting approaches. Regardless of route or altitude, this guy was going IMC that day. The reported 2,400ft tops at Burbank is deceiving because it was more than likely higher the further west you got. The reports of them “within 100 feet” of breaking out is probably a big exaggeration. I was within a wingspan of the tops when vectored into Camarillo at 3,000 and the Conejo Grade, another terrain choke point along their route, was socked in. The fog was hugging the hills pretty hard but the bases were not solid. It got exponentially worse until fully IMC by 1,000 ft when departing KCMA. Here is a shot of the peaks just south of Newbury Park I took maybe a half hour before the accident while being vectored south for the ILS 25 into Oxnard:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-jZRke4nJnHDuDkXm7PtdRIFxK27YPtq/view?usp=drivesdk
 
weilke said:
Had he unintentionally entered the clouds, you would think he had the knowlege and experience to declare an emergency.
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In my opinion, the knowledge and experience to declare an emergency is not going to help him in any way until AFTER he has committed to IFR and is flying the aircraft under control. There is NOTHING more important than flying the aircraft. NOTHING! Coms can wait, and there's nothing they can say or do to help you until you have the AC under control.

It's also entirely possible he had not perceived an emergency until it was too late.

Also, the 76 is not a simple machine even for a trained SPIFR pilot. I doubt seriously that he had any IFR training in this aircraft, possible, but I just doubt it.

It would be a chore, flying along at 150 Kts, to transition to IFR, confirm your scan, initiate a climb, confirm your scan and when satisfied with all that and under control, contact ATC. But it does not appear that's the way it happened.

weilke said:
By simply stating that he intended to climb to 4000, it appears more compatible with someone who just decided to climb through the layer to get where he wanted to get.
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Sure, that's possible, but it obviously didn't work for him.

So it's also possible that he entered the clouds first, either intentionally or unintentionally, AND THEN stated he intended to climb. We don't know. I was merely offering a possible senario. We're all just speculating, remember?
 
I'm not sure it matters if he declared his intentions then climbed or climbed while he stated his intentions. Either way, the result was the same - LOC in IMC.

What surprises me is that a very experienced pilot couldn't maintain wings (or rotor) level for the minute or two it would have taken to climb to VMC conditions. This wasn't JFK Jr. This was a guy who should have had plenty of simulated instrument experience. That's the part that baffles me.
 
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