Keeping speed up in Bravo

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
I have never landed at a Bravo airport, but it is something I want to do, and I'll likely be flying into KSLC this fall for a wedding. I plan on trying to get at least one landing in at KPHX to practice.

I have heard that when flying small planes (i.e. 172 / Archer) in Bravo, while in the pattern, I should do my best to keep my speed up. What exactly does that mean? Should I stay at 100 KIAS until short final, then dump all the flaps and chop the throttle at the last minute? Is this something I just shouldn't worry about?
 
azpilot said:
I have never landed at a Bravo airport, but it is something I want to do, and I'll likely be flying into KSLC this fall for a wedding. I plan on trying to get at least one landing in at KPHX to practice.

I have heard that when flying small planes (i.e. 172 / Archer) in Bravo, while in the pattern, I should do my best to keep my speed up. What exactly does that mean? Should I stay at 100 KIAS until short final, then dump all the flaps and chop the throttle at the last minute? Is this something I just shouldn't worry about?
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If they ask you to keep your speed up plan on cruise descent speed until short, short final unless they say keep your speed at xxx knots. When in the Comanche and they want my speed up (and it's always in a long descending final) I am in the yellow arc (smooth air assumed) until 1/4 to 1/2 mile out. Then it's bleed speed, drop gear, bleed speed, drop flaps, bleed speed, land.
 
Gonna depend on traffic -- EdFred has it covered as far as speed. Sometimes you can do 65 kias and other times they want all you have. I was flying into ATL many, many years ago in a Seneca. ATC wanted 160 kias to threshold or, as he put it, "unless you want to be a hood ornament on the L1011 behind you!" Love 11,000 ft runways when that happens!!!!
 
What EdFred said. I've flown Bonanzas and Lances into ATL and they would request say 160 on final (easy to do in a descent), keep your speed up (go fast), or whatever speed. I would then go to idle on short final, slow up enough to get flaps out and land. Not anything difficult, just different from what you'd do at your home airport.
 
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Call ahead and see when would be the best time to arrive. Sometimes you can fit between the heavies and not be too much of a bother to them.
 
Try a fairly busy class C first.

"Best forward speed" is the unofficial motto of Oakland.

I got that approaching San Jose on my instrument checkride (on the ILS), and Tower made sure I knew there was a FedEx DC-10 on my six.
 
These are all great responses. In my ~85 hours of flying, I have never had an airplane in the yellow arc yet.
MAKG1 said:
Try a fairly busy class C first.

"Best forward speed" is the unofficial motto of Oakland.

I got that approaching San Jose on my instrument checkride (on the ILS), and Tower made sure I knew there was a FedEx DC-10 on my six.
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That's not a bad idea. I'll see if I can head down to KTUS first.
 
I love it when my cfi used to shrug his shoulders when tower told us best forward speed. He just said, looks like we doing our best. Now I actually like keeping my speed up. Didn't until practices no flap landings but now have gotten better at keeping speed up and dumping on short final
 
FWIW, "best fwd" is by no means exclusive to Bravo airspace. I have been asked in Charlie and even Delta airspace. It is all about sequencing during busy times.
 
MAKG1 said:
Try a fairly busy class C first.

"Best forward speed" is the unofficial motto of Oakland.

I got that approaching San Jose on my instrument checkride (on the ILS), and Tower made sure I knew there was a FedEx DC-10 on my six.
Click to expand...

I get the "best forward speed" from NorCal frequently when coming into SJC on an IFR flight plan. What I've learned is that, as long as it's not IMC actual, all I have to do is cancel IFR in the air, and it makes it much easier on them. I usually offer to cancel IFR and go direct to the Pruneyard (VPPRU), but what usually happens is that NorCal hands me off to the tower right after I cancel, and the tower clears me to land straight in. My best guess is that it has something to do with IFR spacing, and that that goes away when VFR. NorCal almost always tells me that they appreciate the help when I use this strategy.
 
Just keep in mind when you say "in the pattern", that the pattern at a busy B is not exactly what you are used to. You will not be making some sort of 45 to a downwind at 1000 feet and 3/4 mile from the landing runway.
Perhaps you knew that, but some newer pilots may not.
 
Years ago in my 182, I was told to "maintain best forward speed" on final to KABQ and, almost in the same breath, told to exit the runway ASAP because a 737 was #2. I'm surprised I didn't burn up my brakes on that one. I was a new pilot, so it seemed like a strange sequence of instructions.
 
Going into a Class C on a night flight a number of years ago in a C-152 I was asked to run as fast as I could due to a 747 coming in behind me. I kept that little tin can firewalled until I hit the fence, and then floated for a while down the enormous runway that airport offered.

On the other hand, the one time I flew into a Bravo it almost seemed as if I was alone… nice leisurely pace.
 
I think what they want is, don't drag it around at 1.3vso for miles. They know you will have to slow down at some point, just put that off until as long as is safely possible. Don't be afraid to tell them your limits "best I can do is 100kts til 1/4mi final". Don't let them push you beyond what you are capable of either. Don't scream over the numbers then force it to land on the nosewheel. But, don't dally on the runway - (safely) expedite your exit (even plan it so you have a taxiway picked out beforehand).
 
Both PHX and SLC have runways that are used more by GA than airlines. That doesn't mean that the traffic landing is necessarily slow or that you will get one of these runways. They are more convenient because they are closer to the FBOs. At PHX it is the southern runway; at SLC it's the eastern one.
 
Everskyward said:
Both PHX and SLC have runways that are used more by GA than airlines. That doesn't mean that the traffic landing is necessarily slow or that you will get one of these runways. They are more convenient because they are closer to the FBOs. At PHX it is the southern runway; at SLC it's the eastern one.
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Yes and no. Yes, GA will usually get 7R/25L. But I do not think it is accurate to say that 7R/25L is used more by GA than airlines. PHX uses the south parallels like ATL or LAX. The inner runway is used primarily for departures and the outer runway for landing traffic. It helps the flow. So while you will typically get the south runway if you ask, you will still be mixing it up with jet traffic and need to keep your speed up.
 
Kritchlow said:
Just keep in mind when you say "in the pattern", that the pattern at a busy B is not exactly what you are used to. You will not be making some sort of 45 to a downwind at 1000 feet and 3/4 mile from the landing runway.
Perhaps you knew that, but some newer pilots may not.
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Can you elaborate on this? Should I expect vectors to final?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Yes and no. Yes, GA will usually get 7R/25L. But I do not think it is accurate to say that 7R/25L is used more by GA than airlines. PHX uses the south parallels like ATL or LAX. The inner runway is used primarily for departures and the outer runway for landing traffic. It helps the flow. So while you will typically get the south runway if you ask, you will still be mixing it up with jet traffic and need to keep your speed up.
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I think what he is getting at is that at PHX, it would be very odd for GA traffic to be routed to 7L/25R or 8/26.

But you are right about the commercial traffic flying out of 7R/25L. I have flown commercially out of PHX dozens of times. I always like to try and figure out which runway and taxiway I am on sitting in the back.
 
azpilot said:
Can you elaborate on this? Should I expect vectors to final?
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Maybe.... You will just need to adjust to the situation at hand. I honestly wish I could be more specific, but there are an infinite number of things that can happen. That's what experience is all about.
That said, it's not rocket science. If you are a competent PP you will figure it out. You may stumble a bit, but you will do fine. In fact, the more you appear to stumble the more ATC will pay attention to you. That may not be a heroine thing, but a learning thing none the less.
 
Depends on the airport and push times. At the airport I fly out of (Class D), there have been plenty of times I've been told to keep best forward speed.
 
jimhorner said:
I get the "best forward speed" from NorCal frequently when coming into SJC on an IFR flight plan. What I've learned is that, as long as it's not IMC actual, all I have to do is cancel IFR in the air, and it makes it much easier on them. I usually offer to cancel IFR and go direct to the Pruneyard (VPPRU), but what usually happens is that NorCal hands me off to the tower right after I cancel, and the tower clears me to land straight in. My best guess is that it has something to do with IFR spacing, and that that goes away when VFR. NorCal almost always tells me that they appreciate the help when I use this strategy.
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It does have to do with IFR spacing. The separation requirement is there until you cross the threshold. Assuming you are a smaller airplane in the lead they need 3 miles. Once your VFR it's 1 1/2, sometimes less depending on how big the following airplane is.
 
azpilot said:
Can you elaborate on this? Should I expect vectors to final?
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Generally, you'll get a more verbose instruction.

"Fly heading 250, report 3 mile base" or something similar. You won't usually get vectored onto final, but you'll be given a heading to a specific point and then you'll fly the rest of the pattern. You won't ever hear "join the 45 degree downwind entry, report midfield downwind" or whatever they say these days at Class D.
 
SkyHog said:
Generally, you'll get a more verbose instruction.

"Fly heading 250, report 3 mile base" or something similar. You won't usually get vectored onto final, but you'll be given a heading to a specific point and then you'll fly the rest of the pattern. You won't ever hear "join the 45 degree downwind entry, report midfield downwind" or whatever they say these days at Class D.
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This. But you also could be vectored onto final, or downwind, base etc.
 
SkyHog said:
Generally, you'll get a more verbose instruction.

"Fly heading 250, report 3 mile base" or something similar. You won't usually get vectored onto final, but you'll be given a heading to a specific point and then you'll fly the rest of the pattern.
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Can't speak for SLC, but going into PHX, you will most likely be getting vectored to final vice given a reporting point and turned loose. Phoenix TRACON isn't going to give you that much control. They will vector you around South Mounain until they can fit you in.
 
My advice to the OP is that before you try PHX, take a flight into Gateway (IWA). Try flying the final flaps up at 24-2500 RPM and then when you are around 300' AGL, starting pulling the power out and slowing it down to land. You might even try partial/no-flap landings. The runways at IWA are plenty long enough to give you time to get slowed down and you can always go around if you aren't comfortable. The key to going into busy Class B airports is maintaining good speed on final, but getting slowed down in time to make a safe landing. Really not hard once you've done it a few times.
 
mscard88 said:
This. But you also could be vectored onto final, or downwind, base etc.
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My first visit to a busy Charlie, around 100 hours, they vectored me onto downwind while still 6nm away. Then about 8 nm beyond the threshold,they gave me an airliner to follow. As soon as I spotted the far away white dot, I turned base; he flew by still a couple of miles in front of me. By the time I turned final, he was off the runway. I was reminded on short final of the MD80 behind me, but by that point I had no choice but to slow down so I could drop the gear. Took the high speed exit 3000' from the threshold, which was the total runway length at home. It was also the first time I added throttle after touchdown . . .

The bigger, busier fields require you to be sharp and on your game. Don't dawdle, and if you aren't sure where to go, just get off the runway quick then ask for progressive taxi.
 
I once landed at Fresno with a big CAP exercise (mission aircrew school), ANG exercises, a wildfire air tanker operation (CalFire), and the occasional airliner, all at once. Got vectored all over the place and of course got "best forward speed" on final. Total bedlam, but the ATC crew handled it beautifully.

And that's a Class C, not Class B. At least it had two very long runways. We tried to do intersection departures when feasible to keep the ground traffic down.
 
I try to let ATC know what to expect when given "keep your speed up".

"I can give you 130 to the fence if I can have the whole runway" PA-28-181.

-Skip
 
I flew my Archer into KSAN on Thanksgiving day. I called the day before and let them know I was coming. They told me the best time of day (1200-1400 local). I had practiced holding patterns and high speed approaches for days before the trip. Then they routed me in direct from MZB to 09, the opposite direction of the other traffic. It was an easy straight shot. They even had me taxi all the way down the runway to get me across the taxiway and to Landmark quickly. I got waves from the flight crew on the 757 that had lined up and was waiting to takeoff on 27 as I rolled toward them. It was easy peasy.
 
Skip Miller said:
I try to let ATC know what to expect when given "keep your speed up".

"I can give you 130 to the fence if I can have the whole runway" PA-28-181.

-Skip
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That does help and a reason why I recommend trying a high speed final at IWA first to see what you are comfortable with.
 
Fearless Tower said:
My advice to the OP is that before you try PHX, take a flight into Gateway (IWA). Try flying the final flaps up at 24-2500 RPM and then when you are around 300' AGL, starting pulling the power out and slowing it down to land. You might even try partial/no-flap landings. The runways at IWA are plenty long enough to give you time to get slowed down and you can always go around if you aren't comfortable. The key to going into busy Class B airports is maintaining good speed on final, but getting slowed down in time to make a safe landing. Really not hard once you've done it a few times.
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That's a great idea, I'll give it a try next time I go out.
 
I did some 'best speed landings/taxi' with my cfi during my transition training into the arrow. By far one of the better uses of my money. We have a 7000 ft runway to practice with (class d with some minor traffic).
The good thing is you are planning ahead, so you have plenty of time to get in the plane with a cfi (if you choose) and get a feel for things at an airport with longer runways but not much traffic.
 
I was based at Dulles for years. I flew the 172 at max speed to short final and then closed the throttle and slipped hard and dropped 10 degrees at 110 and 40 at 85. I could plant it at 2000' and be off at the first high speed.

The Navion is more fun, you can drop either the gear or flaps until 87 knots, but I was still good at keeping full speed up clean and then closing the throttle and holding back until 87 and dropping full gear and flaps out.

Amusingly one night I was directed to land on 12 which the threshold is probably about 3 or 4 miles from the tower. I'm doing 160 knots in the descent and the controller asks if I have my landing lights on. I told him hold on and I slow down to 85 and get the gear out and the lights come on. The full-flap, gear-out approach path on the Navion is pretty steep and he sees me drop 100 knots in short order and go near straight down.

IAD: 27Kilo What type of aircraft is that?

They weren't even going to suppose it was an airplane.
 
As a pilot I was occasionally chased by jets and turbo props to the home class D after I got my private. I was always taught make 1/10 takeoffs/landings unusual. IE Short or soft field. In that realm my unusual landings were typically ones with flaps, because I always came in hot, chopped the throttle and hit the first taxiway without flaps granted in a 150.

As a controller at a Bravo, if you're only comfortable landing with max flaps and VSO 1.3 from 3 mile final, tell me you're going to be going slow. Most Bravos give you two miles of runway nearly. From about a 10 mile final a Skyhawk needs as much room with a jet behind as two jets if it goes full throttle. This only gets worse farther out. If there isn't a dedicated GA runway expect box vectors. Just do what you can speed wise and if you can, communicate how fast you can go till over the fence.
 
Approach_controller said:
As a controller at a Bravo, if you're only comfortable landing with max flaps and VSO 1.3 from 3 mile final, tell me you're going to be going slow. Most Bravos give you two miles of runway nearly. From about a 10 mile final a Skyhawk needs as much room with a jet behind as two jets if it goes full throttle. This only gets worse farther out. If there isn't a dedicated GA runway expect box vectors. Just do what you can speed wise and if you can, communicate how fast you can go till over the fence.
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So the moral to this story is, don't put slow GA aircraft on 10 mile final, and you won't have these problems! I'm not a jet, I can't fly like one. I can keep my speed up on final, but not to jet speed, then I need time and distance to slow down to gear speed before I can land. Give me a nice, long 2-3 mile final and I can fit in.

P.S.--how fast I can go is how fast I'm going right now. Unless I'm descending right now, in that case it's slower.
 
azpilot said:
I have never landed at a Bravo airport, but it is something I want to do, and I'll likely be flying into KSLC this fall for a wedding. I plan on trying to get at least one landing in at KPHX to practice.

I have heard that when flying small planes (i.e. 172 / Archer) in Bravo, while in the pattern, I should do my best to keep my speed up. What exactly does that mean? Should I stay at 100 KIAS until short final, then dump all the flaps and chop the throttle at the last minute? Is this something I just shouldn't worry about?
Click to expand...

There's lots better close by choices than SLC in the Salt Lake area.

Paul
 
I called into Las Vegas's KLAS from outside the ring, got a Bravo clearance and landed at KLAS one Thanksgiving. My only problem was the controller asked if I could see the airport. I couldnt so I said no. He didnt understand why not because the other planes could from there, But they were HIGHER than I was. Controllers sometimes don't understand that, IVe run into that one before. Its because most other planes come in higher. I was down about 1500 AGL or so at that other airport to the south under me when that came up. So be on the lookoout for that one. I am tempted to say yes to that even thought I cant. I mean I have navigation to the airport, its VFR. I have done that but its kind of weird saying that one. Dont relaly want to go into a whole spiel with the guy.....
 
Just blend in, remembering everyone else is doing 130+ knots on final. The closer you can be that til you're ready to land the happier they will be.

Years ago going into Toronto in a Dakota the asked for 130 knots to the runway. I complied and was still down and off the runway well before the mid point. Our little planes slow up well.
 
In a 172, going into BWI, I stay as close to 120 as I can, without being asked. The controller knows the 172's limitations, usually, and I can chop, drop, slip, over the fence, and still have oodles of room.

Where I somtimes have trouble is being left high, very late; I can't get down from 7K' three miles out, not easily, anyway. Most GA airplanes don't go up, or down, as quickly as big iron.

Just tell them your issue, and they'll turn you, give you space, figure it out. Usually without attitude. But cool or snarky, turn on your attitude "filter"; if the controller is annoyed, so be it, don't let it be a factor in your requests or operation. His work station isn't moving; he can see the big picture, and that's his job.
 
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