Jet Crash at Greenville Downtown Airport

134 1/2 ???

As in, should be 135, but doesn't have a certificate, may or may not make some sort of attempt at looking legal (eg, putting the passenger in the right seat and giving them a logbook signed "dual received".)
 
Hmmm. There were passengers. And unless BOTH pilots had added ratings recently, well, neither one was qualified to be doing what they were doing!

The SIC/owner had told a friend to tell his sons to keep the business going if something happened to him. If he wanted that to happen, maybe he should have operated a bit more legally - Gonna be awfully difficult to keep it going with the FAA all over them.
 
I think the insurance company is going to be the least concern for any of the management that is left in the company, the FAA is going to come down on them like a ton of bricks. Jail time is a distinct possibility.



Slang for illegal charter


They're going to jail dead men?
 
Sadly gear up might have saved their lives.

Just couldn’t tell Jack, but I didn’t see any sparks or anything of that nature indicating the gear was up. Plus it probably wouldn’t have been moving that fast if it were sliding in.
 
Just couldn’t tell Jack, but I didn’t see any sparks or anything of that nature indicating the gear was up. Plus it probably wouldn’t have been moving that fast if it were sliding in.
Agree, you can't see them, but it was moving very fast. Until I saw the video, I didn't realize how big of a fall this was.
 
Also, I'm not sure, but at the very beginning of the video and in the middle it looks like they might have tried to pull the nose up.
 
Also, I'm not sure, but at the very beginning of the video and in the middle it looks like they might have tried to pull the nose up.

Hmmmmm..... no visible tire smoke. Anti-lock brakes or brake failure.??

The nose might have been going down due to heavy braking, and going up to a slight decrease in brake pressure.

All a SWAG by me.
 
Hmmmmm..... no visible tire smoke. Anti-lock brakes or brake failure.??

The nose might have been going down due to heavy braking, and going up to a slight decrease in brake pressure.

All a SWAG by me.

I had to look that one up. Scientific Wild A** Guess?
 
Preliminary report is out. Confirmed that the pilot in the right seat was only a private pilot, and the guy in the left seat only had an SIC type. Also part of the braking system was inop, and at best they had no anti skid. It was deferred, so they knew about it, yet still flew into a 5400’ runway.

https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.tow...-11e8-a1fb-07323b2496df/5bb7cb108bc11.pdf.pdf
But seeing as neither pilot had likely been to school on the Falcon, they had no clue that they were doomed before they touched down.

And the pax have stated that they ‘chartered’ the flight.

Whoever from the FAA had oversight of that operation needs to be drawn and quartered.
 
But seeing as neither pilot had likely been to school on the Falcon, they had no clue that they were doomed before they touched down.

And the pax have stated that they ‘chartered’ the flight.

Whoever from the FAA had oversight of that operation needs to be drawn and quartered.
Gonna guess that nobody from the FAA knew about this.
 
Preliminary report is out. Confirmed that the pilot in the right seat was only a private pilot, and the guy in the left seat only had an SIC type. Also part of the braking system was inop, and at best they had no anti skid. It was deferred, so they knew about it, yet still flew into a 5400’ runway.

https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.tow...-11e8-a1fb-07323b2496df/5bb7cb108bc11.pdf.pdf

The most interesting thing I took was this sentence:

First responders reported that all three engines were operating at full power for at least 20 minutes after the accident with, one engine running until about 40 minutes after the accident.
 
The most interesting thing I took was this sentence:

First responders reported that all three engines were operating at full power for at least 20 minutes after the accident with, one engine running until about 40 minutes after the accident.

Not sure how they ascertained they were at full power.

But the report also said this: "The Nos. 2 and 3 fire handles were pulled." No mention of who might have pulled them or when.
 
Because the FAA down there looks the other way.

People need to go to prison for this.

Yep. This situation is pretty egregious - especially if the FAA knew it was going on - but it's telling that I'm not particularly surprised. I think I've mentioned it before on a different thread, but there's a charter owner from my old neck of the woods that would routinely ferry his Challengers around single pilot. Why pay a day rate on a qualified crew if the plane wasn't generating revenue, you know? :rolleyes: I don't think the local FSDO (let alone the owners!) knew anything about it, though. That said, most of the stuff I witnessed was a lot more innocuous.

The company I worked for was mostly on the up and up, but like the other small 135 operators in the region we were loose with some of the regs. Rolling rest, looking back to determine hard time off, actual weights required but never weighed a single bag - etc etc. Typical 135 crap, at least at the time. Our POI was well aware of all of it, but didn't care as long as the paperwork was right. On one of my last 299 rides (captain line check) before selling my soul to the airlines, as usual our POI wanted to observe as we did the preflight. And as always he'd ask us to point to the scale we used for weighing luggage. He looked at the box and said, "Kayoh, you've been showing me that scale for years and years, and I bet it still has the plastic wrapped around it."

"Hmmm...I dunno. I've never opened the box before." And then we'd have a big laugh.

My FO at the time was new - I think he about crapped his pants when he heard my comment. Welcome to 135, kid!
 
And have working anti-skid....
So there's no chance it could've stopped without the anti-skid? You'd figure even someone who was typed for SIC would have known that. Though I am but a lowly PPL talking out of my hindquarters.
 
So there's no chance it could've stopped without the anti-skid? You'd figure even someone who was typed for SIC would have known that. Though I am but a lowly PPL talking out of my hindquarters.

Getting an SIC type is just a matter of bringing paperwork to the FSDO. No checkride or anything along those lines required. With most jets, your landing distance increases by 50% or so without antiskid.
 
Not sure how they ascertained they were at full power.

But the report also said this: "The Nos. 2 and 3 fire handles were pulled." No mention of who might have pulled them or when.

Considering that the cockpit tore off the body of the plane , positions of the controls may not mean all that much.
 
So there's no chance it could've stopped without the anti-skid? You'd figure even someone who was typed for SIC would have known that. Though I am but a lowly PPL talking out of my hindquarters.
An SIC type rating is a paperwork exercise. "Familiarization" is all the sustems training that's required, and no specific knowledge level is required to be demonstrated to get the paper.
 
Getting an SIC type is just a matter of bringing paperwork to the FSDO. No checkride or anything along those lines required. With most jets, your landing distance increases by 50% or so without antiskid.
Oh boy. I figured SIC was at least some sort of systems exam or similar. That's insane if they literally had no chance. Preliminary says the only thrust reverser deployed and flaps, slats and speed brakes were deployed.
 
Yep. This situation is pretty egregious - especially if the FAA knew it was going on - but it's telling that I'm not particularly surprised. I think I've mentioned it before on a different thread, but there's a charter owner from my old neck of the woods that would routinely ferry his Challengers around single pilot. Why pay a day rate on a qualified crew if the plane wasn't generating revenue, you know? :rolleyes: I don't think the local FSDO (let alone the owners!) knew anything about it, though. That said, most of the stuff I witnessed was a lot more innocuous.

The company I worked for was mostly on the up and up, but like the other small 135 operators in the region we were loose with some of the regs. Rolling rest, looking back to determine hard time off, actual weights required but never weighed a single bag - etc etc. Typical 135 crap, at least at the time. Our POI was well aware of all of it, but didn't care as long as the paperwork was right. On one of my last 299 rides (captain line check) before selling my soul to the airlines, as usual our POI wanted to observe as we did the preflight. And as always he'd ask us to point to the scale we used for weighing luggage. He looked at the box and said, "Kayoh, you've been showing me that scale for years and years, and I bet it still has the plastic wrapped around it."

"Hmmm...I dunno. I've never opened the box before." And then we'd have a big laugh.

My FO at the time was new - I think he about crapped his pants when he heard my comment. Welcome to 135, kid!

Honest Q, what is it about S FL that attracts this type of operational environment versus any other 134.5 operation in the Country?
 
An SIC type rating is a paperwork exercise. "Familiarization" is all the sustems training that's required, and no specific knowledge level is required to be demonstrated to get the paper.
So basically I could get one. That's astounding if he just flew the thing off the end of the runway because he literally didn't know he couldn't stop in that distance.

Also, someone on PPRUNE said the following:

"Might be worth noting (1st hand knowledge), the PIC was fired from a a G-1159 job a few years back when CP found out he had lied about his hours and experience..."
 
Honest Q, what is it about S FL that attracts this type of operational environment versus any other 134.5 operation in the Country?

I assume it is a cultural holdover from the pharmaceutical trade during the '70's - 90's.
 
Honest Q, what is it about S FL that attracts this type of operational environment versus any other 134.5 operation in the Country?

I was in Socal, but I think you'll see these kinds of shenanigans (at least the milder type I personally dealt with at my 135 job) in any large metro area with multiple 135 operators. The margins are stupid thin, so with numerous operators around, there's a tendency for it to get cutthroat. S. Florida has a reputation of being a whole other level, but I don't have any direct experience there.
 
Yikes! I couldn’t tell if the gear was down or not?

There is a trail of smoke following the plane on it's short trajectory from the top of the embankment to the road. My guess is that the gear was down and the brakes were locked.
 
Word on another forum is that the original pilots refused the plane with the INOP anti-lock brakes being deferred. So the owner hired another pilot and decided to ride co-pilot.

I am unable to verify that at this time.
 
Oh boy. I figured SIC was at least some sort of systems exam or similar. That's insane if they literally had no chance. Preliminary says the only thrust reverser deployed and flaps, slats and speed brakes were deployed.

Just 25 hours while acting as PIC with someone who holds a PIC type. They sign off the log entries and you get a SIC.
 
Just 25 hours while acting as PIC with someone who holds a PIC type. They sign off the log entries and you get a SIC.
You don't even need a specific amount of time. All you need is 3 full stop landings and a some form of engine out training. I got my first SIC in about a 1.3 HR flight. You also need familiarization training, something similar to ground training and that's about an afternoons worth of time.
 
Sic type ratings can vary greatly. I have one from an airline that refused to give full type ratings until upgrade because they didn’t want first officers getting the type and leaving. The only task not completed was demonstrating the ability to taxi. No tiller on the right side. That SIC type was no freebie.

No way to know what training the guy actually had prior to the issuance.
 
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