Is ATP CTP a cash grab?

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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So having just wrapped this up, I feel like I just sat through defensive driving. You know, the state requires you to be here for 8 hours and take a quiz that everyone passes at the end.

30 hours of ground which was mostly watching crash videos and talking about how they impacted training, safety, as well as the causes.
A few times the person leading the effort would state "No need to take notes, you won't be tested on any of this". There was a 30 question quiz at the end that I understand "Nobody has ever failed".

Off to the sims which were truly amazing. Like legitimately recreates all of the sensations of flying. It is just really real.
They were a ton of fun and I learned what I am going to learn one day but no real "Here are the steps to do x, y, z" and also, "Don't worry, you won't be graded / tested on any of this"

From what I understand, going through all of this is a prerequisite to be able to start a test prep course and take the written.
So $5000 in order to be allowed to take a $150 PSI written exam. And the course does not prepare you for the written, you still have to go get a Sheppard or other course to prep.

I had fun, I learned some really interesting things about how jets fly but easily the most money I have spent to not gain any new skills.

Sim 1 was an A320, Sim 2 was a B737 and Sim 3 was an E145 so not really learning anything as it is a different plane every day. I like the E175 best by the way. I really wanted to like the 737 but it was my least favorite.

At any rate, I now have a letter that states I have taken an approved course and am eligible to take the ATP written.

After it is all said and done, I enjoyed it but I kind of feel like what's the point of this?
If you put me in a jet, I couldn't start it. I can tell you all about various crashes and that it takes a lot longer to stop a jet on a wet runway than a dry one and when you get a TCAS event, the plane will tell you to climb or dive.
I guess I don't understand what the intent of this ATP - CTP thing is supposed to be so it feels a little like Scientology. You can't move up until you have paid this money.

I am not complaining (too much) about the cost. I understand the sims are like $650 / hour but I am not sure what I got or why it was a required step.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
The person leading the effort was absolutely, positively, a ****ing lying sack of ****.

Look at the oral exam requirements in the ACS, Tasks I.C through G.
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I suspect he meant in the CPT course. This is not the full ATP, it is just to get you qualified to take the written.
No oral, no check ride.
 
the first thing they should have taught you is it's the ATP CTP course, not a CPT course. so they failed you.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I suspect he meant in the CPT course. This is not the full ATP, it is just to get you qualified to take the written.
No oral, no check ride.
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But you (probably) won’t get additional training on those tasks prior to the oral. I’ve had more than one applicant fail for that very reason.
 
eman1200 said:
bro u can’t go in and edit those typos, now my post doesn’t make sense.
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HAHA I didn't see your comment. I just started to wonder if I transposed it because I kept doing it prior. when googling.
I will go add them back :)
 
RyanB said:
Best course of action - let a regional or future employer pay for it. ;)
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I took it just because regionals are starting to not pay for it.
Hiring is slowing it seems.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I took it just because regionals are starting to not pay for it.
Hiring is slowing it seems.
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No seems about it. FO hiring is slowing. I’d put apps in at ULCCs and everywhere else you meet mins at.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
After it is all said and done, I enjoyed it but I kind of feel like what's the point of this?
If you put me in a jet, I couldn't start it. I can tell you all about various crashes and that it takes a lot longer to stop a jet on a wet runway than a dry one and when you get a TCAS event, the plane will tell you to climb or dive.
I guess I don't understand what the intent of this ATP - CTP thing is supposed to be so it feels a little like Scientology. You can't move up until you have paid this money.

I am not complaining (too much) about the cost. I understand the sims are like $650 / hour but I am not sure what I got or why it was a required step.
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I wouldn't call it a "cash grab" because it's FAA required. The point is to appease the general public and Congress who think it will increase safety. But it is a waste of time.
 
That's how I feel about the "Advanced Open Water" course(s). Seem like a pointless cash-grab.
 
TCABM said:
No seems about it. FO hiring is slowing. I’d put apps in at ULCCs and everywhere else you meet mins at.
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Yep. Got a friend who just jumped ship from being an LUH-72 IP to trying out for the regionals. Hasn’t been picked up as of yet. Think he might have missed the boat.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yep. Got a friend who just jumped ship from being an LUH-72 IP to trying out for the regionals. Hasn’t been picked up as of yet. Think he might have missed the boat.
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I read somewhere that the fly in the airline hiring Metamucil is lack of hardware, not demand for pilots. Both Boeing & Airbus are way behind on deliveries, with backlogs in the hundreds.

As I understand it, each new airliner delivered supports 100 pilots. That’s difficult to imagine, until you start playing around with 24-hr use of the plane plus 2 pilots per plane, crew duty time limits, vacations, sick days, training, & such. Maybe 100 pilots isn’t such a wild idea after all.

I’d say the long term outlook for your friend is good, if frustrating in the short haul.
 
Yeah I'm still pushing forward. Envoy which is local to me I think is ordered 20 new Embraer 175 this year.

I'm going to knock out my last couple of hours, take this test and then apply there. If they're not interested then I'll start scatter shooting every which way.
 
rhkennerly said:
I read somewhere that the fly in the airline hiring Metamucil is lack of hardware, not demand for pilots. …l.
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Every carrier faces one of two problems that impacts hiring right now.

Problem 1: there are not enough qualified CAs to meet demand.

Problem 2: Delayed airframe deliveries.

Neither is a quick fix.
 
I’ve been making applications since December and it’s definitely a rough patch for jobs. I agree that at this point it looks like you might have to pay for it, just to be considered. My problem is that it’s extremely difficult to take a full week off.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I’ve been making applications since December and it’s definitely a rough patch for jobs. I agree that at this point it looks like you might have to pay for it, just to be considered. My problem is that it’s extremely difficult to take a full week off.
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Yeah, I lost my job a few months back so I got nothing but time on my hands

Although there's this lady I live with who'd really like me to start bringing in money again.
 
I was just chatting with a new pilot at work a couple days ago that came from the regionals in Embraers. Former Navy 60 guy who went to the regionals after retirement. Got laid off during COVID, went back to flying helos and decided to stay. He enjoyed the flying but the commute wore him down. I think if your base is local, it could be a good gig though.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I disagree because there’s some really important stuff in there, but I agree because of the way it’s generally taught.
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If you're going to a 121 carrier you'll learn it there anyway.
 
I did it in 2016. Waste of time for me. Instructors were retired airline guys swapping “war stories” and I don’t remember anything relevant or important. I just used the time to study Sheppard air for the ATP written. Hopefully it’s a better learning experience now.
 
jordane93 said:
I did it in 2016. Waste of time for me. Instructors were retired airline guys swapping “war stories” and I don’t remember anything relevant or important. I just used the time to study Sheppard air for the ATP written. Hopefully it’s a better learning experience now.
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Unfortunately I haven’t seen any indications that it’s changed.
 
jordane93 said:
I did it in 2016. Waste of time for me. Instructors were retired airline guys swapping “war stories” and I don’t remember anything relevant or important. I just used the time to study Sheppard air for the ATP written. Hopefully it’s a better learning experience now.
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It was identical to what you describe
 
Hind sight, if you really pay attention to the accident stories, there will be bits that can save you later when flying, and making confusing decisions.

The price you paid is high, but I have taken courses that I could have taught, but they were mandatory for promotion. In spite of knowing more than the instructor most of the time, I learned additional aspects that I did not know.

Keep your student cap firmly on, and watch for the little things you did not know.
 
I got a little bit out of the ATP-CTP. The simulator was very cool, and I really enjoyed it. The classroom stuff was almost completely pointless IMO.
 
If you want some (unpopular) advice WRT the written, just learn how to do the equations and actually understand the content. You'll be better off for it; Shepherd Air is as far as I am concerned cheating.
 
I see a captain having a conflict with your sense of humor in the future.

Knowing your past, and your FSDO visits, I am unsold that you have the professional demeanor that's required to be responsible for multiples of dozens of lives.

Maybe I'm wrong and you come across different over the Internet than in person. But if we see where everyone on an E175 died because the FO flamed out the engines as a gag, we'll know the name before we read the details.

Flame me all you choose, prove me wrong (hopefully). I'm currently not feeling well about having read this thread.
 
Rgbeard said:
I see a captain having a conflict with your sense of humor in the future.

Knowing your past, and your FSDO visits, I am unsold that you have the professional demeanor that's required to be responsible for multiples of dozens of lives.

Maybe I'm wrong and you come across different over the Internet than in person. But if we see where everyone on an E175 died because the FO flamed out the engines as a gag, we'll know the name before we read the details.

Flame me all you choose, prove me wrong (hopefully). I'm currently not feeling well about having read this thread.
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lol this is pretty funny. surprising, but also funny. you should really try going to a fly-in and meeting some people. also, have you been thru ATP-CPT? or ATP-CTP?
 
eman1200 said:
lol this is pretty funny. surprising, but also funny. you should really try going to a fly-in and meeting some people. also, have you been thru ATP-CPT? or ATP-CTP?
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I've been to several fly-ins, met several people from here, and organized two mid-sized PA-32 flyins.

No, I haven't been thru anything like these programs.
 
Rgbeard said:
I see a captain having a conflict with your sense of humor in the future.

Knowing your past, and your FSDO visits, I am unsold that you have the professional demeanor that's required to be responsible for multiples of dozens of lives.

Maybe I'm wrong and you come across different over the Internet than in person. But if we see where everyone on an E175 died because the FO flamed out the engines as a gag, we'll know the name before we read the details.

Flame me all you choose, prove me wrong (hopefully). I'm currently not feeling well about having read this thread.
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Not sure if sarcastic or serious...
 
Rgbeard said:
I see a captain having a conflict with your sense of humor in the future.

Knowing your past, and your FSDO visits, I am unsold that you have the professional demeanor that's required to be responsible for multiples of dozens of lives.

Maybe I'm wrong and you come across different over the Internet than in person. But if we see where everyone on an E175 died because the FO flamed out the engines as a gag, we'll know the name before we read the details.

Flame me all you choose, prove me wrong (hopefully). I'm currently not feeling well about having read this thread.
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You are probebly right. I will give up and go back to writing software. Thanks for setting me straight.

I hope you accomplish all your goals in life. But yeah, I will cancel mine.
Wish you would have set me straight before I spent all that time and money, safely flying my plane all over the country with friends, instructors, examiners, and family on board.

For real I had to fly 24 different models of aircraft and land a plane over 2000 times without incident and pass all of those checkrides with DPEs that just wanted my money and passed me in spite of me having a sense of humor. Think of all the time I could have saved if you told me this in 2012.

Let me know if you are doing any motivational speeches, I would love to come see one. Hashtag Eyeroll Emoji
 
dmspilot said:
I haven't met him in person either, but I think you have a shallow understanding of his personality. I also think you overestimate the qualifications of the average regional new hire.
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I think the last sentence is the most poignant one.
 
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