Is ATP CTP a cash grab?

Rgbeard said:
I see a captain having a conflict with your sense of humor in the future.

Knowing your past, and your FSDO visits, I am unsold that you have the professional demeanor that's required to be responsible for multiples of dozens of lives.

Maybe I'm wrong and you come across different over the Internet than in person. But if we see where everyone on an E175 died because the FO flamed out the engines as a gag, we'll know the name before we read the details.

Also, you've never seen Stripes therefore you aren't worthy of stripes on your epaulets
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FTFY
 
Heck, if some of the bozos I knew in the Army can fly for the regionals, I’m sure Bryan will do just fine.
 
Rgbeard said:
I see a captain having a conflict with your sense of humor in the future.

Knowing your past, and your FSDO visits, I am unsold that you have the professional demeanor that's required to be responsible for multiples of dozens of lives.

Maybe I'm wrong and you come across different over the Internet than in person. But if we see where everyone on an E175 died because the FO flamed out the engines as a gag, we'll know the name before we read the details.

Flame me all you choose, prove me wrong (hopefully). I'm currently not feeling well about having read this thread.
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Having flown with and alongside Bryan, I can say with 100% certainty that he crashed no planes while I was around, not even as a gag. And he has the professional demeanor necessary to be responsible for two or three dozen lives.

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GaryM said:
Wait till you spend a day in an advanced nitrox course, and realize they could have covered the material by adding 15 minutes to the basic nitrox course
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I think I'll skip that...
 
Rgbeard said:
I see a captain having a conflict with your sense of humor in the future.

Knowing your past, and your FSDO visits, I am unsold that you have the professional demeanor that's required to be responsible for multiples of dozens of lives.

Maybe I'm wrong and you come across different over the Internet than in person. But if we see where everyone on an E175 died because the FO flamed out the engines as a gag, we'll know the name before we read the details.

Flame me all you choose, prove me wrong (hopefully). I'm currently not feeling well about having read this thread.
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I think many captains would love flying with someone like him. Too many uptight, no sense of humor, have nothing interesting to talk about FOs out there. When I used to fly 135, I loved flying with guys we can have a laugh. The dullards that only talked about airplanes, were the longest, boring flights.
 
Hmmm… the answer, yes. It’s a cash grab. Moron FAA requires it, people use that idiotic requirement to make tons of money doing nothing useful.

Now… all this awe over ATPs, their amazing knowledge, skill and devotion to duty… gag…. I’ve got LOTS of experience and ratings. Even outside aviation… the ATP represents the least of ALL of them. It’s up there with gryder’s aqp… which does nothing more than save the airlines money. Before AQP you learned a lot about your jet during training. Not since… trust me. I’ve been through over 20 part 121 training programs, pre aqp, hybrid aqp, post aqp. The aqp programs are flatly the easiest ‘cause ya ain’t gotta know squat and you can’t fail.

Becoming a proficient airline pilot is easier than working the line in a professional kitchen. It’s SO proceduralized you simply get what you need with EXHAUSTING repetition. That’s it.

A TRUE 1500 hours of experience flying around doing everything is worthwhile. VERY worthwhile. This course and the rest really ain’t worth much.

The amazing ability and maturity to be responsible for hundreds of lives… bleck… You simply gotta be a little narcissistic. I reckon if I can make it alive, so can everyone else. Don’t really care about them, sorry. I have a HIGHLY developed sense of self preservation! That seems to work just fine.

If you’re the betting type, believe in compulsive types flying your jet, which is what they try to hire. Follow the (MASSIVE AMOUNT OF) rules, things will almost certainly work out fine.

Part 135, ad hoc freight, part 91… oh hell, EVERYTHING BUT big airline part 121, you better know how to fly and mitigate risk. Otherwise, it don’t really matter, they do it for you.
 
OK... allow me to offer a different perspective....

I took the ATP-CTP in 2015. I was a barely 1500hr mostly C172 pilot and airline pilot wannabe and just missed the deadline to take the multi-engine ATP written before the course became mandatory. The closest course I could find was halfway across the country in Dallas. Even though I bristled at the $5000 cost and having to get a hotel and rental car, I signed up and made travel arrangements. After all, what choice did I have? Before you guys comment, I also missed the memo that a regional would have hired me without it and sent me to take it.

Practically every person in the class came from the military or some 135 outfit with tons of turbine experience. Except me. So, of course they were bored with the course. I, on the other hand, had no experience with high altitude, high speed flight. And I love the deep dives into flights gone wrong. So, other than stuff like crew rest requirements, I enjoyed it quite a bit.

Additionally, I unintentionally became an subject of interest in the class and just about everyone pitched in to help me and encourage me. (Why? Probably because I was an old man of almost 63). The folks were about the nicest anywhere. The course forked out to hire a consultant to help with airline resumes and interviewing (which I made good use of), and gave us all a complementary Shepard Air course for the ATP.

So, armed with all the advice and Shepard Air I went home and finished up and got hired by a great regional. And I can't help but be thankful for the course and all the connections it provided me. I still don't know what the FAA learning objectives for the course, but without that community of support from attending the course, I probably would not have made it.

Yes, I had to retire after two years of flying.

So... (please excuse the hyperbole), I couldn't help but see these many of these comments as from entitled and spoiled kids who feel they have nothing to learn. Everyone has something to learn from any event - so be grateful. Improve your attitude - maybe captains will want to fly with you. (OK... end of hyperbole. Hopefully, we can still be friends).

My advice.
 
Given the exact same material, there can be good instructors and there can be bad instructors. I recall one time I got assigned to a class mid semester because the students complained so much about not learning anything from the original instructor that he was shown the door.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Given the exact same material, there can be good instructors and there can be bad instructors. I recall one time I got assigned to a class mid semester because the students complained so much about not learning anything from the original instructor that he was shown the door.
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An FAA course is absolutely nothing like a college course. If the FAA approved instructor does not read every FAA approved PowerPoint slide to you, they will get in trouble. It is a horrendous teaching method.
 
dmspilot said:
If the FAA approved instructor does not read every FAA approved PowerPoint slide to you, they will get in trouble.
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Slide reading - took a boating safety course - slide comes up with someone wearing a type 1 PFD - instructor comments on how important it is to wear the life jacket. Next slide - type 2 PFD - really important to wear it. Next slide - type 3- ummm more life jackets. Next slide - type 4 - instructor is clearly confused, I'm waiting for him to catch on. Next slide - Type 5 PFD - Instructor stares at it for a moment and goes to the next slide.
 
TommyG said:
I think many captains would love flying with someone like him. Too many uptight, no sense of humor, have nothing interesting to talk about FOs out there. When I used to fly 135, I loved flying with guys we can have a laugh. The dullards that only talked about airplanes, were the longest, boring flights.
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I flew with too many Captains who were spiteful, grumpy bastards and did not appreciate my humor. Mostly the guys I flew with enjoyed my personality and requested me for the hard IFR flights.
 
I did it all on my own dime, before any of this crap was mandated. After 1300 hours of CFI time in two years, I was more than happy to learn new stuff and get the ATP with no classes or extra training of any kind. I spent a weekend studying my butt off and took the checkride cold in an airplane I had only flown twice. It was fun and I returned the next week and took my MEI in the same airplane.

The ATP-CTP was just a knee jerk reaction to a tragic crash that was caused by pilots who were "trained" to minimum standards and had little real experience and insufficient knowledge of basic aviation stuff.
 
IK04 said:
…The ATP-CTP was just a knee jerk reaction to a tragic crash that was caused by pilots who were "trained" to minimum standards and had little real experience and insufficient knowledge of basic aviation stuff.
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QFT.

The guy who flies AF1 with whoever’s the Prez on board can’t fly a Beech 99 in a 121 operation without that ATP-CTP square checked.
 
It’s not a cash grab as much as a government mandated class. If you think of it that way, it’s just as expensive and useless as you’d expect. The sim time is fun though, if you haven’t been in one. It’s also why the class is expensive, not the death by PowerPoint.

No doubt both Colgan pilots would have passed it with flying colors
 
Like most FAA requirements it's useless and most likely a result of an over reaction to something. Just like the 1500 hour rule, it's not quantity it's quality but they can't control the quality so they just increase quantity.
 
Grum.Man said:
Like most FAA requirements it's useless and most likely a result of an over reaction to something. Just like the 1500 hour rule, it's not quantity it's quality but they can't control the quality so they just increase quantity.
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It’s only useless if the instructor and/or learners decide to make it useless.
 
If you are going to do part 91 or 135 stuff it could be useful. But if you you go 121, all that will be covered in your training.
 
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