Intercept over TFR in Chicagoland

[Bravo3]

http://dailyherald.com/article/20110803/news/708039771/

A plane flying out of Barrington was intercepted by two F-16 fighter jets early Wednesday night after the plane entered restricted airspace, which was temporarily put in place for President Obama's visit to Chicago.

The jets were scrambled by the North American Aerospace Defense Command at 5:34 p.m. after a Kitfox Model 2 flew into temporarily restricted airspace, said NORAD spokesman Lt. Michael Humphreys.

Tough for a guy to punch a few holes in the sky without getting a briefing these days.

I bet his heart rate jumped a bit.

 

[steingar]

Security theater at its finest.

 

[Fearless Tower]

How do people miss stuff like this???

Even if you don't get a briefing, these days it seems like my inbox gets full of emails from both AOPA and the FAA everytime there is a VIP TFR in my neighborhood.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

More lives saved, terrorists halted in their tracks.

Stop The TFRs!

 

[Bravo3]

I'm reminded of a Clint Eastwood line from the movie "In the Line of Fire":

Let's face it, half the things we do are window dressing. Take running alongside that limousine: it'd take an anti-tank missile to put a dent in that damn thing. There we are, out for show, trying to make the President look more presidential.

Nothing more "presidential" than a pair of F-16s chasing down a Kitfox.

 

[Fearless Tower]

More lives saved, terrorists halted in their tracks.

Stop The TFRs!

I totally agree that chasing down a Kitfox with a pair of F-16s is overkill, but at the same time, 10 years later, why the hell can't pilots freakin' stay clear of TFRs???

And don't forget, there are more TFRs out there than VIP movements.

For very good reasons, we have TFRs for:
Firefighting operations
Emergency ops
Airshows
and other things that are necessary, but don't mix well with civilian aircraft.

The problem is both wastefull government spending in the name of security AND pilots who seem to have difficulty following basic rules.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

why the hell can't pilots freakin' stay clear of TFRs???

I think we have to accept that, given the evidence of many years of pilots entering TFRs, we will never ever be able to do that. It is an impossible and unreasonable expectation.

That, combined with our knowledge that a TFR is not going to protect any vip, makes it obvious to most that such intrusions into our freedoms are pointless.

 

[ScottM]

How do people miss stuff like this???

Just a guess. But the airport, or rather airstrip that this guy took off from is a seldom used private airstrip. He was well outside the Chicago area and the Class B shelf is transitioning by him from 1900 to 3600 MSL. He probably was doing his typical take off and head away from Chicago type of flight. With the lack of friendly ATC in this area many people fly without talking on the radio to anyone, that is if he even had radio installed.

The emails from the AOPA were sent out pretty late. I got mine Tuesday evening. I had been wondering why no TFR as I had read earlier in the day that the president was coming in. For some reason it was not the typical several day notice. Not that any of this is an excuse. A simple call or brief would have solved the issue. I do have to admit that I sometimes will just head to the airport to go practice take off and landings with nothing more than a glance outside. I usually catch myself and run upstairs at the FBO to check for TFRs. This guy may have been doing the same sort of short flight type of thing.

 

[jpflys]

This was 75 year old matriarch of this small community, flying off her own grass strip. Kudos to her ! Stuff happens.
How long would it take the F-16s to arrive from Toledo ?

 

[Fearless Tower]

It is an impossible and unreasonable expectation.

I disagree that it is impossible or unreasonable. There are always going to be one or two remote cases where word doesn't get out, but by and large it just isn't that hard to stay clear if you do the due diligence that is required prior to flying IAW the FARs.

That, combined with our knowledge that a TFR is not going to protect any vip, makes it obvious to most that such intrusions into our freedoms are pointless.

While I fully agree that a TFR is not going to really protect a VIP, as I mentioned before, there are still plenty of TFRs that we as pilots are legally required to avoid. Are you suggesting that we pilots should be allowed to pick and choose which FARs we wish to follow?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I disagree that it is impossible or unreasonable.

OK then, I will await notice that we finally had a year where there were no TFR violations...and will proclaim you winner.

I think it is unaccepting of human nature to expect this to ever happen.


As far as ignoring FARs.....I did not ever suggest that. I do suggest we consider changing the ones that are ridiculous.

 

[Jay Honeck]

This was 75 year old matriarch of this small community, flying off her own grass strip. Kudos to her ! Stuff happens.
How long would it take the F-16s to arrive from Toledo ?

I would LOVE to have been a fly on the wall in her "conversation" with the Ruling Class jackboots who probably tried to cavity search her after forcing her to land.

I hope she reamed them a new one.

 

[ajstoner21]

Its really not that hard to check for TFR's and stuff before you take off....

So, I really don't understand how pilots violate TFRs.... I don't feel sorry for them. and I hope that doesnt come back to bite me...

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Here is our terrorist, Mrs. Myrtle Rose.

Probably out enjoying a flight, in memory of her husband Bill, who passed away just over a year ago and who also enjoyed a

"lifelong love of flying, holding a current commercial pilot's license and ratings for single-and multi-engine aircraft, land and sea, and helicopter. He was a proud member of EAA Chapter 790, attending Oshkosh air shows for more than 25 years"

.

.

Photo and brief description:
http://www.naplesnews.com/photos/2009/feb/05/92217/


If a person is not shaking their head at how ludicrous our tfr system is, then I suggest such a person truly likes to see g.a. suppressed and our freedoms restricted, or maybe enjoys being a wannabe cop.

.

.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Its really not that hard to check for TFR's and stuff before you take off....

So, I really don't understand how pilots violate TFRs.... I don't feel sorry for them. and I hope that doesnt come back to bite me...

I agree with regard to existing, long-standing TFRs, like the one surrounding Washington, D.C. or Camp David. Violating those TFRs takes a special kind of ignorance that makes all of us look like idiots.

But pop-up TFRs for so-called V.I.P.s that appear over the pilot's OWN GRASS STRIP, while she's flying a KITFOX? Those sorts of TFRs are just patently absurd, and if I thought it would help, I would gladly participate in a little "civil disobedience" by organizing a mass fly-over of such a "V.I.P."

Sadly, the end result of such an act would probably be a whole bunch of pilots in jail, and our Ruling Class would barely take notice of the action.

 

[ScottM]

I agree with regard to existing, long-standing TFRs, like the one surrounding Washington, D.C. or Camp David. Violating those TFRs takes a special kind of ignorance that makes all of us look like idiots.

There are no TFRs around Washington DC nor Camp David. There is a SFRA around DC and a Prohibited area around Camp David. A TFR, the SFRA and a prohibited area all have different rules about them. Knowing the difference is important to avoid regulatory entanglements.

Those sorts of TFRs are just patently absurd, and if I thought it would help, I would gladly participate in a little "civil disobedience" by organizing a mass fly-over of such a "V.I.P."

It would sure feel good, but I think it would just make us all look like lose cannons. But if you feel the need, I'll buy your fuel!

 

[Fearless Tower]

OK then, I will await notice that we finally had a year where there were no TFR violations...and will proclaim you winner. .

I did not say that zero TFR violations was necessarily achievable - as I said earlier, there will always be a one here and one there where something was mis-communicated. There have been people who busted TFRs that did their due diligence and still had a bust (most commonly because they did get a briefing, but for whatever reason the briefer did not mention the TFR). But those are few and far between. We should not be having as many violations as we seem to still have.

As far as ignoring FARs.....I did not ever suggest that. I do suggest we consider changing the ones that are ridiculous.

Which ones though? If you are specifying eliminating only VIP TFRs, then perhaps I might agree with you.

However, your post was:

Stop The TFRs!

That's kind of ridiculous since (as I pointed out) there are a whole lot of very legitimate reasons to impose a Temporary Flight Restriction other than for VIP movement.

Again, while I agree with you that VIP TFRs are rather silly and pointless, my point is that if we can't get pilots to avoid those TFRs, then how can we get expect them to avoid the TFRs that might actually prevent them from killing people like wandering into a formation of high speed jets or a stream of fire-fighting aircraft?

Just because the VIP TFR might be stupid, doesn't automatically make the pilot who busts it intelligent.

 

[RyanShort1]

Sadly, the end result of such an act would probably be a whole bunch of pilots in jail, and our Ruling Class would barely take notice of the action.

Or worse - they would take the threat "seriously" and shoot some of us down, taking snippets of things you've said and "anti-government" propaganda, twisting them to make you look like a radical, and leaving the public thinking that a great danger was averted, our fellow pilot brethren further restricted, and no reasonable person left to defend what would be the truth of the matter.

If that, or something like it ever happens, I will be suspicious.

Ryan

 

[silver-eagle]

What they should do is send the presidents plane to chase down the offender. A nice low altitude slow pass by a 747 might make a lasting impression.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I'm flying to OSH tomorrow and have the FAA TFR map open; nothing showing around Chicago. All I see is an airshow at Billy Mitchell. And, how is one to keep track of the Presidential TFR over his bus on his tour of the midwest?

Best,

Dave

 

[ScottM]

I'm flying to OSH tomorrow and have the FAA TFR map open; nothing showing around Chicago. All I see is an airshow at Billy Mitchell. And, how is one to keep track of the Presidential TFR over his bus on his tour of the midwest?

Best,

Dave

Whose bus tour of the Midwest?

The president was in Chicago for Wednesday afternoon and evening then went home that night. He is gone, and he took AF1.

 

[Richard]

I presume the Pres TFR is still 30 nm. What is not said is what portion of the TFR did the Kitfox penetrate, at what altitude(s) and for what duration of time.

Yes, a definite line is a definite line not to be crossed. But when in radioless (and assumingly GPSless) aircraft, how exactly would the pilot even be aware she had crossed that line? Even if she had gotten a full NOTAM briefing.

A quick brush against the perimeter ring of the TFR is a violation but absent those facts ya'll sure seem quick to fry a fellow bird.

Perhaps the fault is not with the pilot but with how the TFR is implemented and enforced. It's not like she was buzzing Lower Whacker, right?

 

[Jim Logajan]

VIP TFRs appear to have nothing to do with protection of national security; they are entirely for personal security. The death of the president does not affect national security. Some notable presidential deaths and near deaths in times of national stress or war and the non-consequences:

• Abraham Lincoln assassinated at the close of the U.S. civil war. National security unaffected.
• Franklin D. Roosevelt dies during World War 2. National security unaffected.
• John F. Kennedy assassinated during the Vietnam and height of the cold war. National security unaffected.
• Ronald Reagan assassination attempt and disablement during latter period of the cold war. National security unaffected.

Crude as it may seem, no person holding presidential office is uniquely indispensable. We can always find replacements.

 

[gprellwitz]

Dang, when I read "Barrington", I was afraid it was the Roses. I've landed at their strip before, and talked with her husband back in October of 2008. Their strip is a lighted grass strip in an affluent northwestern suburb of Chicago, a few miles to the right of the approach to 14R at ORD. They were both pilots, and she was a former wing-walker! They had a variety of aircraft at their strip, including the Bell helicopter he flew to his plan in the southern suburbs of Chicago. They also had an award-winning Grumman Goose that they flew down to Florida. IIRC, he said that he did not land it in the salt water. The original article is no longer coming up, but I can (unfortunately) guess at all too many of the details.

 

[Mike I]

What bothers me are stadium / sporting event TFRs that don't show up on any online map, and briefers don't always have their info. Cross country flight planning can be a pain if one plans a lower segment, as stadiums aren't always readily depicted on sectionals, and even so, their event schedules won't show up as TFRs online. What's the solution?

 

[gprellwitz]

What bothers me are stadium / sporting event TFRs that don't show up on any online map, and briefers don't always have their info. Cross country flight planning can be a pain if one plans a lower segment, as stadiums aren't always readily depicted on sectionals, and even so, their event schedules won't show up as TFRs online. What's the solution?

To be honest, I don't worry too much about them. I rarely fly cross country distances at less than 3000' AGL, so the stadium TFRs don't come into play. Plus, if they don't have the mechanisms in place to provide the briefers with the information needed to warn us about the TFRs (including times), how are they getting the information to the enforcers to bust us? For me, the only concern comes when doing the lakefront route in Chicago, where the stadium TFRs extend out over the Lake, and the Class B is forcing you low.

 

[Richard]

Grant, with all due respect, you gotta get more utility out of your aircraft.

Consider you are on a X/C flight. You see something worthy of your attention. You circle 'round and drop down for a better look...BUSTED! You didn't check for "low level' TFRs.

I could come up with several other similar scenarios but the point is we fly because of the utility it affords and the joy of flight. You rightly mention the mechanism of faulty dessimination of TFR information yet you dismiss it because it doesn't apply to you.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Whose bus tour of the Midwest?

The president was in Chicago for Wednesday afternoon and evening then went home that night. He is gone, and he took AF1.

On CNN yesterday, it announced he was going on a bus tour of the midwest. I couldn't hear it, just saw the captions while eating lunch.

Best,

Dave

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

What bothers me are stadium / sporting event TFRs that don't show up on any online map, and briefers don't always have their info. Cross country flight planning can be a pain if one plans a lower segment, as stadiums aren't always readily depicted on sectionals, and even so, their event schedules won't show up as TFRs online. What's the solution?

"Stadiums" can be selected at DUAT but it does not give TFR information. You have to look up the schedules for the various teams. And hope that they don't go overtime or play a game that wasn't orginally scheduled, or...

The best thing to do is to never talk to ATC so they don't know who to bust unless you land at an attended airport and they call to find out who just landed.

 

[ScottM]

On CNN yesterday, it announced he was going on a bus tour of the midwest. I couldn't hear it, just saw the captions while eating lunch.

Best,

Dave

I had not heard that before. Hopefully the TFRs will not be a 'roving' one. That would be a Royal PITA for these kingly TFRs.

 

[azure]

The best thing to do is to never talk to ATC so they don't know who to bust unless you land at an attended airport and they call to find out who just landed.

Even better: always talk to ATC, and when you first check in with an approach control near a big city or one of the Big Ten, ask them if there are any stadium TFRs in the area. I'm not sure how friendly other TRACONs are (and suspect Chicago is close to useless for this purpose), but anytime I'm not sure whether a Tiger game is over yet, I ask Detroit Approach about Comerica Park and have never found them less than cooperative. In fact, they once warned me about a TFR due to a riverfront event that I didn't even know about.

 

[steingar]

Even better: always talk to ATC, and when you first check in with an approach control near a big city or one of the Big Ten, ask them if there are any stadium TFRs in the area. I'm not sure how friendly other TRACONs are (and suspect Chicago is close to useless for this purpose), but anytime I'm not sure whether a Tiger game is over yet, I ask Detroit Approach about Comerica Park and have never found them less than cooperative. In fact, they once warned me about a TFR due to a riverfront event that I didn't even know about.

Some folks don't have radios. Some of us would rather listen to music than ATC chatter. The real solution is for the government to relinquish all this expensive and utterly useless security theatre. Obama made mention of such in his inauguration, but sometimes his sweeping rhetoric fails to match his actions.

 

[azure]

Obviously if you're NORDO you can't talk to ATC, that's a Doh! As long as I have a radio though, I'm not going to be listening to music while flying... too much at stake.

I totally agree about the inane security theatre though. That and a lot of the rest of the excessive regulation that's a big part of why recreational aviation will probably be priced beyond the reach of anyone but the filthy rich by, oh say, about 2025.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Some folks don't have radios. Some of us would rather listen to music than ATC chatter. The real solution is for the government to relinquish all this expensive and utterly useless security theatre. Obama made mention of such in his inauguration, but sometimes his sweeping rhetoric fails to match his actions.

No one is requiring you to communicate with ATC. That was just offered up as an extra precaution to help ensure you (or the Flight Service briefer) didn't miss something.

If you would rather listen to music while you fly, you have every right. But if you bust a TFR and get intercepted by some jets while you are jamming to your tunes, then I will not feel sorry for you.

I said it before and I'll say it again - I think VIP TFRs are as stoopid as most of you feel. But when a pilot fails to follow their basic responsibilities as outlined in the FARs and busts one.... well, I am sorry - it's not the TFRs fault.

 

[gprellwitz]

Obviously if you're NORDO you can't talk to ATC, that's a Doh! As long as I have a radio though, I'm not going to be listening to music while flying... too much at stake.

I totally agree about the inane security theatre though. That and a lot of the rest of the excessive regulation that's a big part of why recreational aviation will probably be priced beyond the reach of anyone but the filthy rich by, oh say, about 2025.

In the case under discussion, it is my understanding that Myrtle did not have a radio in her Kitfox.
Edit: Apparently she was flying her Cub and, while it has a radio (handheld?), it was not turned on.

 

[azure]

In the case under discussion, it is my understanding that Myrtle did not have a radio in her Kitfox.

I believe I read that too. But I was responding to Geoffrey's post, just in case it wasn't intended as tongue-in-cheek (or someone took it seriously).

 

[mikea]

Dang, when I read "Barrington", I was afraid it was the Roses. I've landed at their strip before, and talked with her husband back in October of 2008. Their strip is a lighted grass strip in an affluent northwestern suburb of Chicago, a few miles to the right of the approach to 14R at ORD. ...

I'm surprised you were able to land there. I heard that Mr. Rose banned all outsiders after he got sued when one crashed.

The Rose's are well known in the Northwest suburbs of Chicago, owners of the Mill Rose restaurant and the Rose Packing Company and gift shop. There's all kinds of flying memorabilia at the restaurant.

Maybe now if she stops flying they'll let it go to seed.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110804/news/708049895/

 

[ScottM]

I'm surprised you were able to land there. I heard that Mr. Rose banned all outsiders after he got sued when one crashed.

The Rose's are well known in the Northwest suburbs of Chicago, owners of the Mill Rose restaurant and the Rose Packing Company and gift shop. There's all kinds of flying memorabilia at the restaurant.

Maybe now if she stops flying they'll let it go to seed.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110804/news/708049895/

I had thought they already let it go to seed after the husband died a year or so ago. I had no idea the wife was still flying.

 

[Richard]

I said it before and I'll say it again - I think VIP TFRs are as stoopid as most of you feel. But when a pilot fails to follow their basic responsibilities as outlined in the FARs and busts one.... well, I am sorry - it's not the TFRs fault.

Will you agree there may be a rule or regulation or law which is poorly written and strictly enforced?

Will you agree that rule or reg or law may seem so onerous that everyone is or should be aware of it?

Will you agree that the rule or reg or law, as written, may be near impossible to accurately interpret?

 

[Richard]

Where and how did Mrs Rose violate the TFR?

If she flew within 29.9999 nm of the President, she 'busted' the TFR. So let's say the prudent pilot decides to stay 35 nm from the President. Then an unknown wind presents itself and wholly infavorable to the pilot.

Or another pilot thinks they are even more cautious and decides 35 nm is cutting it too close so they decide on 40 nm.

ad absurdum

Pretty soon, the most cautious of all pilots is simply one who decides to not fly for the duration of the TFR. Thanks, govt.