Intercept over TFR in Chicagoland

mikea said:
I'm surprised you were able to land there. I heard that Mr. Rose banned all outsiders after he got sued when one crashed.

The Rose's are well known in the Northwest suburbs of Chicago, owners of the Mill Rose restaurant and the Rose Packing Company and gift shop. There's all kinds of flying memorabilia at the restaurant.

Maybe now if she stops flying they'll let it go to seed.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20110804/news/708049895/
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They were having a benefit wine tasting for their church, and a friend of mine invited us. We asked for and received permission to land there in October of 2008. I don't know when the accident occurred, and I don't see any in the NTSB database.
 
Followup, or follow down...

Myrtle Rose was just taking a short flight over suburban Chicago when the 75-year-old aviation enthusiast looked out her cockpit window to see two F-16 fighter jets. She assumed the military pilots were just slowing down to get a closer look at her antique plane.

...

Rose, who tries to fly every day when weather permits, said she had been itching to get back in the air Wednesday after a number of days on the ground. She normally uses her computer to check for any airspace restrictions, but it wasn't working properly.

"I hadn't flown in over a week," she said. "It was a beautiful afternoon." After some guests departed her home, she "just climbed in the airplane and left."

To make matters worse, "I didn't have my radio on. I was just flying around," she said.

...

When the fighters appeared, Rose wasn't alarmed.

"I thought, 'Oh, well, they're just looking at how cute the Cub is," she said Friday in an interview with The Associated Press. The blue-and-yellow plane had won a best-in-class award at the Oshkosh Air Show, a huge annual gathering in Wisconsin.

...

Though she never saw their faces — hard to do, she said, when she's puttering along at about 60 mph and the jets were doing what she figured was about 300 mph — she was impressed with the way the pilot who pulled in front of her kept his distance to avoid rattling her wood-and-fabric plane.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...-encounter-with-f16s-20110805,0,4054526.story
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:hairraise:

Myrtle! Don't be talking to nobody!
 
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Richard said:
Will you agree there may be a rule or regulation or law which is poorly written and strictly enforced?
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Yes, there are countless rules and regulations that would fit that description.

Richard said:
Will you agree that rule or reg or law may seem so onerous that everyone is or should be aware of it?
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Clearly - it has been 10 years since VIP TFRs have been strictly enforced. If a pilot doesn't know they are supposed to check this stuff before they commit to flight, they've had their head buried in the sand for the last 10 years. In this case, the pilot (by her own admission) did not check. Whether or not she and her Kitfox were a threat isn't the point. She's still in violation. This wasn't the case of a pilot getting a briefing and the briefing missing the NOTAM.

Richard said:
Will you agree that the rule or reg or law, as written, may be near impossible to accurately interpret?
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Nope, not in this case. It is pretty crystal clear to me.
 
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gprellwitz said:
They were having a benefit wine tasting for their church, and a friend of mine invited us. We asked for and received permission to land there in October of 2008. I don't know when the accident occurred, and I don't see any in the NTSB database.
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I'm not familiar with the area and am curious about her location; is her airfield IL68, Mill Rose Farm?
 
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Richard said:
Perhaps the fault is not with the pilot but with how the TFR is implemented and enforced. It's not like she was buzzing Lower Whacker, right?
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That's a great new name for our President! Lower Whacker! :)

(Yes, I know what Lower Whacker really is.)
 
Jim Logajan said:
Crude as it may seem, no person holding presidential office is uniquely indispensable. We can always find replacements.
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I have been saying this since I was subjected to witnessing Bush's visit to Iowa City after our big flood in '08. (See images here)

After that fiasco (I stopped counting at $18 million, just for the flock of helicopters and secret agents all over the place on Day One of his two-day visit), I realized just how far over the top we had gone toward having an emperor, not a president.

Personally, I prefer Germany's system. While I was there, Angela Merkl walked right past me, unprotected, on her way to the stage, where she spoke extemporaneously to a crowd in Munich for over an hour. Germans have accepted the fact that their leaders are simply "representatives" -- as in "representative of all of us" -- who can be easily replaced.

Obama could be replaced with a random selection from any unemployment line in America. All of this "protection" at the expense of liberty is patently un-American.
 
Jay Honeck said:
After that fiasco (I stopped counting at $18 million, just for the flock of helicopters and secret agents all over the place on Day One of his two-day visit), I realized just how far over the top we had gone toward having an emperor, not a president.
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Having been personally involved in just a small aspect of planning an overseas Presidential visit (that was ultimately cancelled), I can tell you that that was nothing. It would make you sick to know how much money is spent on high-vis trips.

Jay Honeck said:
Personally, I prefer Germany's system. While I was there, Angela Merkl walked right past me, unprotected, on her way to the stage, where she spoke extemporaneously to a crowd in Munich for over an hour. Germans have accepted the fact that their leaders are simply "representatives" -- as in "representative of all of us" -- who can be easily replaced.
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Lots of places have - I got to shake hands with the president of Nigeria once....and I was just a low-life O-3 at the time.
 
I saw the Chinook lift copter flying overhead northwest to ...? Madison? this morning.
 
Hundreds of Light Airplanes Converge over President's Home
Mark Meedya

By Mark Meedya, CNN
August 5, 2016 4:25 p.m. EDT | Filed under: Mobile

At 3:15pm this afternoon we received reports of hundreds of light aircraft appearing inexplicably in the skies over St Louis, Mo. The Air Force has come out in response but so far there have been no reported conflicts between their F35's and the large number of small two, and four-seater Cessnas & Pipers. The personal aircraft have been simply flying a large circle centered on the President's home for the last hour but have taken no hostile action either.

Update 5:10pm EDT by Nora Neus
The circling of small aircraft, apparently owned by otherwise law-abiding citizens appears to be a protest against the government's continued imposition of ever-larger and more frequent TFRs (temporary flight restriction) zones in which privately owned airplanes have typically been forbidden, such as this 50nm diameter TFR centered on the President's home.

CNN's Mark Meedya has spoken with a public relations person representing the group and reports to us that they are fed up with the continued interference in their ability to simply navigate around the country. Phil Flivver tells us that his group, 'Take Back the Skies' (TBTS) is a grassroots organization of ordinary Americans who own and use light aircraft as a valid means of transportation - and this event is the start of many educational events in which they hope to explain to their fellow countrymen & women how the government is curtailing our freedoms.

Phil says TBTS plans to educate the public and lobby the government in the hopes of showing how most TFRs and other airspace 'thefts' as he calls them, are both unconstitutional and have proven to not once provide any benefit over many, many years.

"These airspace impositions are a perfect enactment of Benjamin Franklin's quote 'They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety.......' In fact, time has proven that these losses of our liberty have provided safety or benefit to no one. A light aircraft has been proven completely ineffective in terrorist attacks. It is time to reduce and repeal many of these unnecessary and imposing restrictions." Phil says this affects every American, as government impingement on any liberty is a threat to all of us.

Meanwhile over the city, the gaggle of light aircraft continued their orderly, 10 mile diameter circle over the city at 2000' above ground. The fighter jets have long since been recalled by the Air Force, and operations have resumed albeit with minor modifications to flight paths in and out of the Lambert-St. Louis Intl airport.

The FAA reports that the gathering of aircraft has been well organized and is causing no delays. Our observers tell us that aircraft break off from the formation constantly in order to land for fuel, and others are joining the circle at a similar rate.

Interviews with folks on the ground suggest there is no concern over the aircraft, indeed there is considerable support. Bill Buckyard and his family watched the flying from their front yard. "I wish them well in this - I hate to see our government constantly overstep its bounds" says Bill. His teenaged son Jake said he thought the flying looked "neat" and that he always wanted to go down to the airport to see about a ride.

At this time, there is no sign of this group slowing down in their aviation-style expression of civil disobedience, but we will report back later.
 
That's classic. I wonder what the Secret Service or whoever would do if a bunch of GA pilots got together and actually did that.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That's classic. I wonder what the Secret Service or whoever would do if a bunch of GA pilots got together and actually did that.
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It might be worth a try. Of course, getting pilots to do ANYTHING is a lot like trying to herd cats, but still...
 
ScottM said:
Just a guess. But the airport, or rather airstrip that this guy took off from is a seldom used private airstrip. He was well outside the Chicago area and the Class B shelf is transitioning by him from 1900 to 3600 MSL. He probably was doing his typical take off and head away from Chicago type of flight. With the lack of friendly ATC in this area many people fly without talking on the radio to anyone, that is if he even had radio installed.

The emails from the AOPA were sent out pretty late. I got mine Tuesday evening. I had been wondering why no TFR as I had read earlier in the day that the president was coming in. For some reason it was not the typical several day notice. Not that any of this is an excuse. A simple call or brief would have solved the issue. I do have to admit that I sometimes will just head to the airport to go practice take off and landings with nothing more than a glance outside. I usually catch myself and run upstairs at the FBO to check for TFRs. This guy may have been doing the same sort of short flight type of thing.
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Late e-mails from AOPA are not an FAA-approved excuse. The NOTAM was posted Monday.
 
Jay Honeck said:
It might be worth a try.
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It'd have been effective and fun before they started locking up U.S. Citizens at Gitmo without due process for "terrorism" during a War never declared by Congress.

How many years, do you suppose, they could hold a small fleet of GA aircraft as "evidence" if a typical laptop involved in only alleged crimes, can take six months to three years to be returned?

Just think. We send 'em $0.40 of every dollar we make for this level of compassionate public service, and there's roughly 50% of the country who thinks we should all send more so we can magically create high-quality programs and bigger bureaucracies, because those have proven themselves worthy of more revenue/funds.

That'll make it all better. There is no bureaucracy at all.
 
kkoran said:
Late e-mails from AOPA are not an FAA-approved excuse. The NOTAM was posted Monday.
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Did you just skip over the part in the post you quoted where I said "Not that any of this is an excuse" and "A simple call or brief would have solved the issue" for a reason?

I ask because it seem that the way you posted you were taking exception with my post, yet in actuality we are in agreement. So I was wondering why the post trying to make it look I was trying to excuse her behavior.
 
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If I ever bust a TFR for one of these political scum bags (and I pray I do not do so accidentally) I will file suit in Federal Court asking the Court to declare TFR's for political appearances to be an uncompensated taking of the public air space and a violation of existing case law... We cannot take down the TFR system in total, but we can raise the stakes for the government bureaus involved so that they think before they act- and raise the political price for the politicians causing these pop up TFR's when they are out grubbing for dollars...
Yes, the President will always have a TFR around him and I don't expect to change that...

I will lose in court... But the next guy may not... Repeatedly going to the courts and demanding changes in regulations/laws that are unjust and unconstitutional is a major part of how child labor was reversed, women got the vote, blacks got the right to keep their seat on the bus, etc... The Courts usually back the establishment in the first few cases involving a challenge to the Government (one hand washes another) but with public scrutiny and cases being filed in multiple Federal Districts the justices get nervous and suddenly begin remembering they are supposed to be an independent branch of the Government and to be impartial triers of fact, and not just give the other branches of the Government a wink and a nod... As the cases begin to pile up the judges dust off their copies of Constitutional Law and begin reversing previous rulings...

I cannot conceive of a way for pilots to do a "sit in" over a TFR, and Politicians only respond to those groups that put cash in their pocket, so the Courts are our only avenue... If we want to spend dollars for gas to bust the TFR, better we give those gas dollars to a group who will sponsor a single pilot to bust the TFR and then land for the authorities - preplanned and with numerous cameras running and a law firm on hand to witness the authorities actions...

Wanna see some bureaucrats sweat - just let them suddenly realize they are on camera and a junk yard dog trial attorney is going straight to the Federal Court House to file a suit...

denny-o
 
Pretty sure they don't care as much as you think. Most of them have filed bankruptcy and a number of them have convictions of crimes. Hearing that someone's going to sue them for something non-personal probably induces a big yawn from much of our ruling class. They're sociopaths.
 
Richard said:
I presume the Pres TFR is still 30 nm. What is not said is what portion of the TFR did the Kitfox penetrate, at what altitude(s) and for what duration of time.

Yes, a definite line is a definite line not to be crossed. But when in radioless (and assumingly GPSless) aircraft, how exactly would the pilot even be aware she had crossed that line? Even if she had gotten a full NOTAM briefing.
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For those of you who can't navigate without a GPS: Get a chart (one of those paper things) and find the centerpoint of the TFR. Draw a circle 30 nm around the that point.

A quick brush against the perimeter ring of the TFR is a violation but absent those facts ya'll sure seem quick to fry a fellow bird.

Richard said:
Perhaps the fault is not with the pilot but with how the TFR is implemented and enforced. It's not like she was buzzing Lower Whacker, right?
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Maybe they could use a crop duster to paint a line on the ground (and buildings, cars, trees, etc.) denoting the TFR boundary.
 
ScottM said:
Did you just skip over the part in the post you quoted where I said "Not that any of this is an excuse" and "A simple call or brief would have solved the issue" for a reason?

I ask because it seem that the way you posted you were taking exception with my post, yet in actuality we are in agreement. So I was wondering why the post trying to make it look I was trying to excuse her behavior.
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Sorry, Scott, I didn't mean it that way. I meant it as a reinforcement to your comment for those people who seem to rely on AOPA notifications (or what they see on their GPS) for TFR awareness rather than checking the offical NOTAMs.
 
ya'll sure seem quick to fry a fellow bird.
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Yes, but it gets very quiet when those folks goof up.
We need a motto, "Judge not a fellow flyer til we have traveled 1000 hobbs hours in their left seat"!

But pilot:pilot squabbles distract us from the real issue. The enemy is not within - it is not other pilots. It is the perpetrators of unwarranted restrictions of our liberty.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Yes, but it gets very quiet when those folks goof up.
We need a motto, "Judge not a fellow flyer til we have traveled 1000 hobbs hours in their left seat"!

But pilot:pilot squabbles distract us from the real issue. The enemy is not within - it is not other pilots. It is the perpetrators of unwarranted restrictions of our liberty.
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Exactly.
 
ajstoner21 said:
I love this line:
""I thought, `Oh, well, they're just looking at how cute the Cub is," she said Friday in an interview with The Associated Press."
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I'm still wondering how the Kit Fox became a Cub. That does seem to lend credence to the unique qualities of her Cub and why the F-16s would be interested in looking at it.
 
Richard said:
I'm still wondering how the Kit Fox became a Cub. That does seem to lend credence to the unique qualities of her Cub and why the F-16s would be interested in looking at it.
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Eh, I just put it down to typical reporters. Though I admit a Kitfox isn't one that I'd expect a typical reporter to come up with.
 
Don 'cha wonder how these Guard pilots look at it?

At the debrief, do they get high fives for a mission accomplished just for managing to slow down enough to be seen by a Kit Fox?

I wonder if they realize what a waste of time and money it is.

Prolly they're happy to have a mission, no matter how bogus the grounds for it are.
 
mikea said:
At the debrief, do they get high fives for a mission accomplished
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I bet they have 'Myrtle' decals which they stick below the canopy each time they nail one of us.

Myrtle the Terrorist:
 

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Rose, a Republican who said she did not vote for Obama, joked about mailing the president a note for his birthday.

"Oh dear, maybe I should send him a belated birthday card and say, 'You should have stayed home and Michelle baked you a birthday cake.'"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44037919/ns/us_news/

:rofl: :popcorn:

I like her style. ;)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
But pilot:pilot squabbles distract us from the real issue. The enemy is not within - it is not other pilots. It is the perpetrators of unwarranted restrictions of our liberty.
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Sadly that is not true - the enemy is both.

In case you haven't been following things, the overall public perception of General Aviation is not super positive right now. Whether the TFR is effective at protecting VIPs and F-16s intercepting a Kitfox is overkill doesn't matter that much in a public relations fight and that is exactly what we are up against. Joe Public just sees some over-privelleged aviator who can't follow rules. Just one more nail in GA's coffin.

There is only one real way to fight this - support organizations that can be advocates for GA and while doing that straighten up and fly right.
 
mikea said:
Don 'cha wonder how these Guard pilots look at it?

At the debrief, do they get high fives for a mission accomplished just for managing to slow down enough to be seen by a Kit Fox?

I wonder if they realize what a waste of time and money it is.

Prolly they're happy to have a mission, no matter how bogus the grounds for it are.
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Outwardly they will say that it is a waste caused by some pilot who couldn't follow the rules. On the inside, they're just glad to have a reason to fly. In the current DoD fiscal situation, pilots just don't get to fly all that much anymore. Any excuse is a good one.

And no, I am not NG (I'm Navy), but I have worked with a few.

These days, if a Navy pilot can rack up 2000 hrs over 20 years, he is doing pretty good.
 
Hey, iwin and Dave Taylor: I know and work with these pilots on a daily basis. It is not an easy mission since they all know that they might be told to shoot down an airliner full of mostly innocent people, and live with the consequences.(or have you already forgotten 9-11 and its impact?)

These are the same guys who also go to Iraq and Afghanistan for months at a time.

If you think they enjoy chasing after a moron in a spam can who didn't bother to get a briefing you are sadly mistaken. Your flip comments disrespect the men and women who fly these missions as well as all the missions we are given.
 
AcroBoy said:
If you think they enjoy chasing after a moron in a spam can who didn't bother to get a briefing you are sadly mistaken. Your flip comments disrespect the men and women who fly these missions as well as all the missions we are given.
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Pretty sure the only real disrespect being shown these pilots is straight from the politicians who actually believe they're actually worthy of military aircraft cover.

They're infinitely replaceable. Especially the more they're just bought and paid for shills.
 
The previous posters' comments were directed toward the pilots, and clearly were disrespectful. It us not a joy ride or fun, but deadly serious. The planes are loaded with live ordnance. They know they might be tasked with killing hundreds to potentially save thousands.

When they launch they could be up against an airliner headed for downtown Chicago, or it could be some moron who didn't bother to get a briefing.

It is easy to make flip and snide comments sitting on your ass somewhere safe, but a lot harder flying the actual mission.
 
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