Intercept over TFR in Chicagoland

[mikea]

... I programmed my GPS and would fly a 4.01 circle around it, also the roof of the TFR was 6000 agl, to that I would climb to 6010 agl and pass right over his house.... The guys running the temp radar site would have a royal fit but had NO legal standing on busting me as I "played by their rules"...

You could have been busted and held on the tarmac at gunpoint.

We know from getting from under the Class Bravo that the distances are DME measured, not by GPS. DME is slant range. DME is not accurate to within 30 meters. You don't get .01NM to play with. If your blip is inside the line on the ancient CRT tube, you busted. We give a 5 NM berth.

For TFRS there's an AWACS jet overhead and they have equipment that is much more accurate than your 01. GPS measurement, but you STILL don't know where they're measuring from.

For crissakes the center of a TFR definition isn't specified within 0.01NM. It's DME!

 

[Bravo3]

Pretty sure the only real disrespect being shown these pilots is straight from the politicians who actually believe they're actually worthy of military aircraft cover.

They're infinitely replaceable. Especially the more they're just bought and paid for shills.

Roger that!

 

[N801BH]

You could have been busted and held on the tarmac at gunpoint.

We know from getting from under the Class Bravo that the distances are DME measured, not by GPS. DME is slant range. DME is not accurate to within 30 meters. You don't get .01NM to play with. If your blip is inside the line on the ancient CRT tube, you busted. We give a 5 NM berth.

For TFRS there's an AWACS jet overhead and they have equipment that is much more accurate than your 01. GPS measurement, but you STILL don't know where they're measuring from.

For crissakes the center of a TFR definition isn't specified within 0.01NM. It's DME!

One slight correction.... My perimeter was 4.1 NM, not .01. The leeway I gave myself was 528 feet not 52 feet... Sorry... To set this straight the co-or = lat/lon were given as were the DME numbers for this TFR.... At least that was what showed up on the FAA heads up site I used to program the GPS.... http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr_map_ims/html/reg/scale2/tile_1_1.html

 

[murphey]

Pretty soon, the most cautious of all pilots is simply one who decides to not fly for the duration of the TFR. Thanks, govt.

That's exactly what happened in 2008 during the DNC in Denver. The TFR and publicity was so onerous that most of us just stopped flying for the week. A few weeks after I was talking to one of the DIA ATC folks and he was surprised at how little GA traffic was around. I explained the reaction to the TFR and his comment was (paraphrased) "but but but...we didn't intend on a complete stoppage other than AF1 coming & going (usually 2 hrs each) and the actual acceptance speech"...well golly, that's NOT how it was communicated to the GA community.

 

[gprellwitz]

The previous posters' comments were directed toward the pilots, and clearly were disrespectful. It us not a joy ride or fun, but deadly serious. The planes are loaded with live ordnance. They know they might be tasked with killing hundreds to potentially save thousands.

When they launch they could be up against an airliner headed for downtown Chicago, or it could be some moron who didn't bother to get a briefing.

It is easy to make flip and snide comments sitting on your ass somewhere safe, but a lot harder flying the actual mission.

Jim, I read the post differently. I believe that the slam/disrespect was intended against the politicians, not the pilots.

 

[denverpilot]

When they launch they could be up against an airliner headed for downtown Chicago, or it could be some moron who didn't bother to get a briefing.

It is easy to make flip and snide comments sitting on your ass somewhere safe, but a lot harder flying the actual mission.

Sorry kid, I ain't buying that NORAD didn't know airliners don't cruise well at 60 knots in *this particular case*.

I've got good friends who serve and have served with distinction and they'd have been smart enough to know that this particular intercept was a non-starter from the beginning.

Security theatre.

They've got historical track data and could easily see it came off a grass strip, and puttered around at speeds slower than most things large enough to do any real damage can even fly at, and posed zero threat to the President.

You're being quite dramatic. I haven't seen anything that'd fly at 60 knots that would carry those "hundreds of people" they'd have to pull the trigger on to save "millions".

Read many Clancy novels lately?

Get some perspective. The little old lady only is a "threat" in today's world because the powers that be want TFRs more than they want to utilize their brains.

Put a friggin' helo up and send it to check out low speed targets, don't scramble fighters from a hundred miles away.

The AF folks tasked with the job know this stuff. They also know that "successful intercepts" give them a budget next year during cuts.

The politicians like hearing that the boys with their jets showed up, at later debriefings and the Generals know it too. Keeps their budget intact.

The times a jet scrambles and thwarts a real threat, it won't be on the evening news. Too many people will be embarrassed that it got that close.

How fast can a typical missile traverse 30 nm? 30 nm is "last ditch effort" range to save a President. If something's firing (or detonating) within that 30 nm ring, it's already an epic fail for the *real* security folks, and nothing doing 60 knots launched from a local airfield that didn't ever turn and fly inbound is a serious threat to a ground target, except maybe a helicopter.

I'm all for our folks gettin' the job done, there was just no job to be done here other than burning lots of Jet-A to get a visual on a low-priority target.

 

[AcroBoy]

How fast does helo go- 60 knots perhaps? Does a primary return distinguish the type and altitude? Do helos have much in the way of air to air capability?

How can you spin dissing our pilots and military into your political rant?

 

[Fearless Tower]

How fast does helo go- 60 knots perhaps?

H-60s tend to do between 90 and 120

Does a primary return distinguish the type and altitude?

No ability to distinuish type. Altitude only if Mode C is on or using a military 3D radar.

Do helos have much in the way of air to air capability?

Only door mounted machine guns. Not the kind of thing you want to be using over suburban America.

 

[AcroBoy]

H-60s tend to do between 90 and 120

"No ability to distinuish type. Altitude only if Mode C is on or using a military 3D radar." And a low altitude primary target can pop up quickly.


"Only door mounted machine guns. Not the kind of thing you want to be using over suburban America."

Exactly to all, and point was that while it's easy to make a political rant in hindsight, helos are not really the ideal platform for air to air intercepts, our radar (onboard or ground based) cannot distinguish among primary returns, and therefore jets remain the best option.

It's just annoying when the arm chair quarterbacks can be so flip and criticize and diss our military, or spin their assigned missions into a political rant that supports their own agenda.

 

[Richard]

If an intercept will in any way end with a shoot down it means the TSA failed. I see win all over this thread...except for GA. The same GA who hasn't done a damn thing to deserve this ****!

 

[denverpilot]

How fast does helo go- 60 knots perhaps? Does a primary return distinguish the type and altitude? Do helos have much in the way of air to air capability?

Do you really want me to answer that or do you have a copy of Jane's or Wikipedia? Wow.

Helos have been doing better than 60 knots since before I was born, and carrying plenty enough firepower to splash any 60 knot flying machine.

Pretty sure any motivated door gunner with an M-16 could take out a Cub or it's pilot. Who needs missiles?

Again back to reality here... I can see it's hard for you, but try to think critically now...

From the lady's comments about having the radio off, we know the Cub had an electrical system and we can assume a transponder happily squawking away on 1200, but you're back to making stuff up again with the "primary return" thing.

Straight outta the spy novels. Your imagination is great but you may want to stick to the facts here.

How can you spin dissing our pilots and military into your political rant?

No spin necessary. "Spin" requires lying. This intercept is so dumb, no spin is required.

And no one here is "Dissing" anything other than that there was no threat worth scrambling for.

Scrambling for real threats is great. Good military folks doing a good job is great. A couple guys in an R22 with an M-16 could have handled this one.

There's poor planning on TFRs on how to deal with low and slow threats, but the brass loves a good high-speed intercept. That's all this was. The media eats it up and the taxpayers feel safe.

The politicians eat it up because the public says "hooray" at those "dangerous little airplanes" being safely escorted away from their errored ways of flying at a suburban Chicago grass field, by the golden-helmeted gods in the F-16s. That "dangerous" 75 year old lady in her Cub came too close to the President!

Save her from the error of her ways!

The fact that there's about a million higher threats to any VIP in Chicago within a two-block radius of the Principal than a Cub making lazy flights in the sky 30 miles away, is well known by those who really protect the VIPs.

They didn't exactly scramble him to the armored limo when they got word of the intercept.

The jets scrambling is just for show. It buys free media time.

The last assassination attempt on a president was done by a mentally disturbed person at point-blank range with a handgun, not a Super Cub named Winston 30 nm away.

VIP TFRs are useless because they can literally pop up in your path in-flight. Yeah we all give lip-service to always checking and most of us do it, but that can't fix the brokenness of the fact that on any other day of the year, that airspace she was in, she was doing nothing illegal.

And then one day she's busted for the movement whims of a politician.

That's a busted system in systems engineering terms. Not politics, just broken.

Scrambling fighters for 60 knot squawking targets, even more busted.

Christ, alter the orbit of the AWACS (actually it's a TACAMO E-lint aircraft, not a traditional AWACS but since you don't even know that helicopters can fly above 60 knots these days, we'll give you a pass on the AWACS comment), and tell the crew to look *down*.

"Yep, it's a Super Cub, over."

If it makes you feel better, we all know that TSA is doing such a great job, that a repeat of airliner scenario will never happen. So don't worry about that one anymore. (sarcasm)

No fighter pilot will ever have to make that horrible decision to splash an airliner because lots of people's junk was fondled at every major airport.

Keep trying to make scrambling on Cubs seem important, or as if claiming that it's not is "anti-military" or "anti-American", or discuss the facts. TFRs are busted. The response system for responding to 60 knot targets is busted. This is a perfect example.

Me and the little old lady flying the Cub will keep yawning. So will the real security detail. They're busy with much closer real possible threats.

 

[Richard]

Now I have a better idea than my 1,000 plane protest over DC. ALL GA, and I mean all...NBAA and as many Part 135 feeders as possible...follow a voluntary ground stop for one week. Nobody flies.

No fuel sales, no flight training, no charter ops, nothing in the air but 121 and the mil. Let's show the public the hurt and by doing so, pin the blame rightfully on the asinine TFRs.





"And without Matt "Guitar" Murphey."

 

[AcroBoy]

Nate, you're great at ranting, but not so much on reality. Do you really know this pilot had a transponder on and equaling, or are you making assumptions again. Can an R22 stationed at say Midway or ORD travel fast enough to overtake even a 172? Can it carry an M249, a couple cans of ammo, and a crew?

When was the last time anyone referred to NORAD?

It all shows your misguided ignorance and disrespect for our pilots.

 

[AcroBoy]

Actually,my questions were rhetorical, but to suggest that an R-22 with an M-16 would be effective is completely absurd. Last time I took a lesson in an R-22 it had the useful load of a bicycle and was about as fast.

Nate, you and I do not know the full threat assessment,but have you ever sat in on a secure briefing and then watched the "news" on Fox? It is not even close. Both you and I do not know the true real threats to our VIP's.

You do not know how hard it is to intercept a slow mover, pick it up on radar amongst ground clutter, and then get a lock. Someone with ill intent even in your average spam can has more of an advantage than you think. The purpose is not to intercept the moron who didn't get a briefing, it is to find out who it is and assess their intentions if possible.

A nordo pop up primary return is an unknown, pure and simple. It likely was someone who didn't pay attention and get a briefing, but would you want to be the one to make the call that it wasn't an unknown target and look at it objectively?

Regardless, the pilots do not go back and high five each other, or put markings on the side of their planes, as suggested in the other posts. When they launch and get vectored they are on a real mission, with live ordnance. It is not a lark or a joy ride. They do not know whether it is granny in a Kitfox, or someone with other intent. All they know is there is a plane out there that is not supposed to be there.

The only outcomes from these incidents are bad for GA.

 

[N801BH]

Actually,my questions were rhetorical, but to suggest that an R-22 with an M-16 would be effective is completely absurd. Last time I took a lesson in an R-22 it had the useful load of a bicycle and was about as fast.

Nate, you and I do not know the full threat assessment,but have you ever sat in on a secure briefing and then watched the "news" on Fox? It is not even close. Both you and I do not know the true real threats to our VIP's.

You do not know how hard it is to intercept a slow mover, pick it up on radar amongst ground clutter, and then get a lock. Someone with ill intent even in your average spam can has more of an advantage than you think. The purpose is not to intercept the moron who didn't get a briefing, it is to find out who it is and assess their intentions if possible.

A nordo pop up primary return is an unknown, pure and simple. It likely was someone who didn't pay attention and get a briefing, but would you want to be the one to make the call that it wasn't an unknown target and look at it objectively?

Regardless, the pilots do not go back and high five each other, or put markings on the side of their planes, as suggested in the other posts. When they launch and get vectored they are on a real mission, with live ordnance. It is not a lark or a joy ride. They do not know whether it is granny in a Kitfox, or someone with other intent. All they know is there is a plane out there that is not supposed to be there.

The only outcomes from these incidents are bad for GA.

I think you are missing the point...... That is ......

How much damage can a 75 year old lady do to the president with a Piper Cub from 30 miles away ???????????? .

Geez..... Some you guys need to get a grip on reality.

 

[AcroBoy]

You are absolutely correct about the limitation of damage from a Kitfox or Cub. But, how did you know it was a Cub when she was nordo by her own admission?

Regardless of whether she had a transponder or had it turned on, as was discussed, you might only see a pop up primary return, or just a VFR squawk. It could equally have been something big and slow, or anything in between.

Point is, you cannot tell what it was, who it was, or their intentions. Thirty miles at as slow as 60 MPH is thirty minutes, but how long does it take to get people into a jet, fire it up, taxi, launch, and intercept? And, this was just at 60mph.

Over reacting, perhaps in this case. On the other hand, maybe next time it won't be. We don't know the actual threat assessment,(or at least I don't), but I would assume this has something to do with the response.

When I see the posts about over reacting, not a threat, etc, it makes me think about the Navy's perspective in Pearl Harbor at the start of World War II- sounds somewhat familiar.

 

[AcroBoy]

Since making unsubstantiated pronouncements seems to be a common writing style, perhaps it would be better to phrase my response as questions:

With a NORDO plane, how does one identify them, communicate, or establish intent?

With a primary return only, how does one accurately determine the size and altitude of the plane, along with type and intent?

What is the actual threat assessment on any given day during a VIP TFR from aircraft? What is the real intel on how much of a risk exists that warrants a TFR?



What are the FAA regulations regarding pre-flight planning requirements?
Who is responsible for obtaining all pertinent information before flying?

How long does it take to jump in, strap in, start, arm, taxi, take off, and travel over mach approximately 100 miles?

Perhaps if we had the answers to all of the above, particularly regarding the threat assessment, we could make our own conclusions regarding the validity of the VIP TFR's. Until then, it's just more noise and rant.

I for one just don't know, and even the pilots I've spoken with are not able to reveal the details of the intercepts.

However, I would rather see our F-16's intercept 100 people in spam cans that forgot, were oblivious, or too lazy to check the NOTAMS, then see one GA or even commercial plane try to take out our leadership.

 

[bbchien]

Even better: always talk to ATC, and when you first check in with an approach control near a big city or one of the Big Ten, ask them if there are any stadium TFRs in the area. I'm not sure how friendly other TRACONs are (and suspect Chicago is close to useless for this purpose), but anytime I'm not sure whether a Tiger game is over yet, I ask Detroit Approach about Comerica Park and have never found them less than cooperative. In fact, they once warned me about a TFR due to a riverfront event that I didn't even know about.

I assure you, that C90 (Chicago Approach) is TOTALLY USELESS for this sort of information. They "Weeee can't heAR YOU!".

 

[Bravo3]

So you support activist judges?? :wink2::wink2:

Why not start with Constitution-defending judges? That'd be a breath of fresh air.

It used to be that the rulings of SCOTUS and lower were a coin toss. Nowadays they're as predictable as the Cubs blowing a six run lead (and not in a good-for-the-plebes way).

 

[denverpilot]

Actually,my questions were rhetorical, but to suggest that an R-22 with an M-16 would be effective is completely absurd. Last time I took a lesson in an R-22 it had the useful load of a bicycle and was about as fast.

The R22 was also rhetorical. Do the Chicago police no longer have real helicopters? Does the Air Force own a telephone?

Nate, you and I do not know the full threat assessment,but have you ever sat in on a secure briefing and then watched the "news" on Fox? It is not even close. Both you and I do not know the true real threats to our VIP's.

Ahh, there's where we probably really differ. You assume I even care about our VIPs. Or think they're VIPs in the first place. Or deserve special protection. They're politicians. A dime a dozen. They deserve the same 90 second response time from the Chicago Police (on a good day) that the Citizen standing outside the Grand Birthday Hall would receive when they dial 911.

Why bring up Fox? It's interesting you used them specifically instead of saying "news media". Just a side-thought as I was reading your rant.

The "stay home and have a nice cake" pretty much covered it for me. Myrtle's right. If the President wants to go to Chicago for a birthday party, fine. Leave me, Myrtle, and our lives out of it. Nobody cares.

Don't drag the security blankie TFR around and "investigate" anyone who got within 30 nm in a light aircraft.

We're so sorry we didn't pay $10K a plate to attend the party after passing through the metal detectors and facial recognition scanners to see the Great Wizard of Oz eat his birthday cake, but oh yeah... We could care less about sucking up to the Great and Powerful Oz.

Doesn't matter which Party or ideology either. No one with a real life gives a ... about a Presidential birthday party.

You do not know how hard it is to intercept a slow mover, pick it up on radar amongst ground clutter, and then get a lock. Someone with ill intent even in your average spam can has more of an advantage than you think. The purpose is not to intercept the moron who didn't get a briefing, it is to find out who it is and assess their intentions if possible.

Oh hell, read some stuff by some people doing real military intercepts during the Cold War. They couldn't "assess their intentions" at all.

They were flying alongside Russian Bears and Backfires for one reason only... To put a Sidewinder up their ass if they launched anything.

There's not a human alive who can assess the intentions of another by looking at them through a Cub's side window. What a crock of BS.

A nordo pop up primary return is an unknown, pure and simple. It likely was someone who didn't pay attention and get a briefing, but would you want to be the one to make the call that it wasn't an unknown target and look at it objectively?

It was NORDO but I'll put $20 down that she was squawking 1200 from wheels up at a well-known airport to wheels down. She flies that airplane EVERY DAY.

You've hit on the REAL reason though. No military brass is NOT going to launch fighters against anything for fear of the repercussions if the completely unlikely did happen.

You want to be able to say you "did something" in the blame-game afterward at those levels.

Imagine if they'd have just had a Rolodex and the local police chopper crew on standby... and the police chopper didn't launch due to a mechanical problem.

That's the reason F-16s were used. Agencies don't trust each other to get things done.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When all you've managed to put on stand-by is a couple of F-16s in Toledo, everything looks like a bandit at Red Flag. You train like you fight.

Perhaps they need to train to talk to local agencies and learn about local resources? Just sayin'.

Regardless, the pilots do not go back and high five each other, or put markings on the side of their planes, as suggested in the other posts. When they launch and get vectored they are on a real mission, with live ordnance. It is not a lark or a joy ride. They do not know whether it is granny in a Kitfox, or someone with other intent. All they know is there is a plane out there that is not supposed to be there.

Never said they do any of that. You must have made it up in your head.

I said that the whole premise that "she wasn't supposed to be there" is flawed, right from the start.

VIP TFRs are retarded. Beyond retarded. And their implementation is even worse. They're mobile "violation/suspicion cylinders" of airspace that pop up out of nowhere for folks who don't care where these so-called VIPs go, or what they do with their time.

If TFR violations are such a problem (and they are... and continue to be...) you'd think after a decade of this silliness, the powers that be could figure out how to place a helicopter on stand-by as close to the center of the TFR as possible and not launch fighters from another State?

Frankly, my assessment is that they DO NOT WANT TO. The screaming fighters across the sky and resulting news media reports keep the budget money flowing.

A helicopter flying over to look at a Cub isn't even newsworthy. In fact, it wouldn't even make the last story slot on the local boob tube unless it were a slow news day.

Remember the line from "The Right Stuff"?

"No bucks, no Buck Rogers."

Yep. Agreed.

When you make up threats and create TFRs and plop them over the locations of sociopaths who think they're greater than the rest of us and deserve protection from the Citizenry who are "investigated" if they get too close...

You're absolutely right. Nothing good has, or will come from it.

The powers that be can be especially proud of intercepting a 75 year old lady in a Cub who goes flying every day to prove their "readiness" to protect against a non-existent threat they made up out of thin air in my lifetime.

The crews won't be proud. They'll probably give their squadron buddies the "Grandma Intercept" award made up of a pair of Depends nailed to a plauque in the squadron ready-room. Maybe a challenge coin with a Cub chasing the "six" of an F-16. Then they'll toss back a couple and laugh. The crews know what's important and what's funny.

Think anyone ever flew a light aircraft near any of the VIPs before TFRs? I'm sure I did. Probably multiple ones.

I used to listen to the baseball game on the ADF while doing a quick lap around the Stadium too. Was pretty fun.

I was a Free American in my airplane.

Now I'm a "target" and a "threat" if I do that.

This in a Country that has much more wrong with it in the back rooms of Washington -- problems that can and have caused more damage to it -- than anything I could do with a Skylane or Myrtle could do with her Cub.

If all we have left for our military to accomplish is to scramble fighters to look at Cubs that stray too close to the Wizard of Oz here in Emerald City, perhaps our priorities are now royally and thoroughly f-ed?

I'm pretty sure a young man or woman died today in Afghanistan who would have appreciated another fully-loaded F-16 overhead -- instead of it sitting in Toledo on hot-standby ready to save the President from a Super Cub.

I'm also sure your plan is the right one and that I'm anti-military because you said so.

You're fun. I think anywhere a VIP goes he should have an entourage of Generals who toss rose petals at his feet. I think the real troops would get a kick out of that. Might help morale to distribute some videos of that.

 

[AcroBoy]

I suppose you know a lot about troops and generals or the military at all because of some vast experience doing....? Other than I suppose ranting and making political proclamations, or perhaps not even considering other perspectives?

I did notice you do make lots of proclamations about anything and everything, but there were actually very few questions. It gets tiring, but I guess it's your right.

Enough for me.

 

[Bravo3]

Nate,
I think you've got the right take on this Bizarro world we've entered in this last decade.

Now let me raise it up a notch.

I believe this authority-loving, flag-waving, uber nationalistic, thank-you-for-my-freedom-and-safety worship of anyone wearing a uniform is deeply disturbing. I think the clock is being reset to a very bad time from my father's day, and it don't look good. I'm starting to see eager Jugend everywhere.

And politicos can kiss my hairy left one. The world doesn't need a one of 'em.

Let the indignation begin . . .

 

[N801BH]

The R22 was also rhetorical. Do the Chicago police no longer have real helicopters? Does the Air Force own a telephone?



Ahh, there's where we probably really differ. You assume I even care about our VIPs. Or think they're VIPs in the first place. Or deserve special protection. They're politicians. A dime a dozen. They deserve the same 90 second response time from the Chicago Police (on a good day) that the Citizen standing outside the Grand Birthday Hall would receive when they dial 911.

Why bring up Fox? It's interesting you used them specifically instead of saying "news media". Just a side-thought as I was reading your rant.

The "stay home and have a nice cake" pretty much covered it for me. Myrtle's right. If the President wants to go to Chicago for a birthday party, fine. Leave me, Myrtle, and our lives out of it. Nobody cares.

Don't drag the security blankie TFR around and "investigate" anyone who got within 30 nm in a light aircraft.

We're so sorry we didn't pay $10K a plate to attend the party after passing through the metal detectors and facial recognition scanners to see the Great Wizard of Oz eat his birthday cake, but oh yeah... We could care less about sucking up to the Great and Powerful Oz.

Doesn't matter which Party or ideology either. No one with a real life gives a ... about a Presidential birthday party.



Oh hell, read some stuff by some people doing real military intercepts during the Cold War. They couldn't "assess their intentions" at all.

They were flying alongside Russian Bears and Backfires for one reason only... To put a Sidewinder up their ass if they launched anything.

There's not a human alive who can assess the intentions of another by looking at them through a Cub's side window. What a crock of BS.



It was NORDO but I'll put $20 down that she was squawking 1200 from wheels up at a well-known airport to wheels down. She flies that airplane EVERY DAY.

You've hit on the REAL reason though. No military brass is NOT going to launch fighters against anything for fear of the repercussions if the completely unlikely did happen.

You want to be able to say you "did something" in the blame-game afterward at those levels.

Imagine if they'd have just had a Rolodex and the local police chopper crew on standby... and the police chopper didn't launch due to a mechanical problem.

That's the reason F-16s were used. Agencies don't trust each other to get things done.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When all you've managed to put on stand-by is a couple of F-16s in Toledo, everything looks like a bandit at Red Flag. You train like you fight.

Perhaps they need to train to talk to local agencies and learn about local resources? Just sayin'.



Never said they do any of that. You must have made it up in your head.

I said that the whole premise that "she wasn't supposed to be there" is flawed, right from the start.

VIP TFRs are retarded. Beyond retarded. And their implementation is even worse. They're mobile "violation/suspicion cylinders" of airspace that pop up out of nowhere for folks who don't care where these so-called VIPs go, or what they do with their time.

If TFR violations are such a problem (and they are... and continue to be...) you'd think after a decade of this silliness, the powers that be could figure out how to place a helicopter on stand-by as close to the center of the TFR as possible and not launch fighters from another State?

Frankly, my assessment is that they DO NOT WANT TO. The screaming fighters across the sky and resulting news media reports keep the budget money flowing.

A helicopter flying over to look at a Cub isn't even newsworthy. In fact, it wouldn't even make the last story slot on the local boob tube unless it were a slow news day.

Remember the line from "The Right Stuff"?

"No bucks, no Buck Rogers."



Yep. Agreed.

When you make up threats and create TFRs and plop them over the locations of sociopaths who think they're greater than the rest of us and deserve protection from the Citizenry who are "investigated" if they get too close...

You're absolutely right. Nothing good has, or will come from it.

The powers that be can be especially proud of intercepting a 75 year old lady in a Cub who goes flying every day to prove their "readiness" to protect against a non-existent threat they made up out of thin air in my lifetime.

The crews won't be proud. They'll probably give their squadron buddies the "Grandma Intercept" award made up of a pair of Depends nailed to a plauque in the squadron ready-room. Maybe a challenge coin with a Cub chasing the "six" of an F-16. Then they'll toss back a couple and laugh. The crews know what's important and what's funny.

Think anyone ever flew a light aircraft near any of the VIPs before TFRs? I'm sure I did. Probably multiple ones.

I used to listen to the baseball game on the ADF while doing a quick lap around the Stadium too. Was pretty fun.

I was a Free American in my airplane.

Now I'm a "target" and a "threat" if I do that.

This in a Country that has much more wrong with it in the back rooms of Washington -- problems that can and have caused more damage to it -- than anything I could do with a Skylane or Myrtle could do with her Cub.

If all we have left for our military to accomplish is to scramble fighters to look at Cubs that stray too close to the Wizard of Oz here in Emerald City, perhaps our priorities are now royally and thoroughly f-ed?

I'm pretty sure a young man or woman died today in Afghanistan who would have appreciated another fully-loaded F-16 overhead -- instead of it sitting in Toledo on hot-standby ready to save the President from a Super Cub.

I'm also sure your plan is the right one and that I'm anti-military because you said so.

You're fun. I think anywhere a VIP goes he should have an entourage of Generals who toss rose petals at his feet. I think the real troops would get a kick out of that. Might help morale to distribute some videos of that.

Outstanding response to this topic..... I ,for one admire you for that.

Your statement----

"I'm pretty sure a young man or woman died today in Afghanistan who would have appreciated another fully-loaded F-16 overhead -- instead of it sitting in Toledo on hot-standby ready to save the President from a Super Cub. "

Should be the lead story in every media market in this once fine nation. With the upcoming budget shortfall, every federal, state and local government agency will be positioning themselves with " crisis" items to justify their existence... You can take that to the bank too.... Hurry though as they will probably be the next thing to experience a "crisis".

 

[denverpilot]

I suppose you know a lot about troops and generals or the military at all because of some vast experience doing....? Other than I suppose ranting and making political proclamations, or perhaps not even considering other perspectives?

Generals? Met 'em. Very good at war. Not so good at dealing with civilians. Often spend no more than a few seconds saying hello and returning their attention to the Senator or better, the troops. Tend to believe the world revolves around them, because in the confines of their world, it does.

I have great respect for what they do for all of us. Especially when they have the chops to tell a politician, "We'll accept this mission if you make us, but we're not well suited for it."

They have a tough job, keeping politicians apprised of reality.

Also not to hard to figure out that they need to play by the politicians rules or they get to go home and try to reassimilste into civilian life on the speech circuit. Met a couple doing that, too.

I considered your perspective! You know, the one where you lied and said I was disrespecting the crews who made the intercept. You might note that I summarily dismissed it because it wasn't true.

I did notice you do make lots of proclamations about anything and everything, but there were actually very few questions. It gets tiring, but I guess it's your right.

This coming from the man who made the proclamation that I was "Dissing" military flight crews and never asked me any questions? Rich.

I call the world like I see it.

I'm game. I'm very curious what questions you think I should have asked.

Did the Secret Service open a hotline I can call where they'll give details about military intercepts they ordered?

If you've found errors in my posts, I'm willing to be wrong. You don't like my opinion that TFRs are ineffective and retarded, and I can't spend too much time worrying about that.

We'll both be dead and gone and the VIPs still won't care what either of us think or post on an Internet message board, unless of course we (pilots) come up with a collaborative message that gets through en-masse that shakes their view of how ****ed off TFRs make all of us.

If they don't bother you, don't take it personally if they bother those of us who remember a day without them.

Back when light aircraft weren't military threats, and the military was busy intercepting real bad guys who flew low-level in stuff a lot faster than a Cub.

Not U.S. Citizens flying their Cub over their grass field just because it just happens to be within 30 nm of the President.

Oh wait. We're still not a military threat. Silly me.

I'll ask you a question, since you claim to want them:

Do you find the VIP TFR system effective against any known credible threat?

Is closing down airspace around the so-called leadership, the only way to handle this?

Aren't we smart enough as a Nation anymore to know it's theatre for the TV cameras and a drain on our military's time and energy?

Buy the President a helicopter gunship and send the F-16s to fights they're better suited to fight. Or let the F-16s fly highcap and not sit 100 miles away from the "possible threats" on the ground.

If we're to the point where anywhere a President goes is to be treated with the same tactics as a war zone, just get on with it so we can all see how silly it all is.

If the day is here of instant communication and information, acting like someone's normal who has a TFR up around them for the rest of their lives is pretty silly. The peasants can't possibly understand the need for safety of the Great and Powerful Oz.

(Note: I've been careful to use the Oz metaphor because if I tried to explain the silliness with a real politician's name, I'd be blasted from whichever side's guy's name I chose to explain the silliness of VIP TFRs. And we all know the story of Oz and how he was just a normal human behind all the green smoke and mirrors.)

Get Congress to declare a War and send the U.S. Military to get the job done. I'm all for that. Plenty of folks aren't.

Send the military fighters after Super Cubs, I'll always call BS on that one. No politician is worth that precedent.

We pay the FBI and police to handle that, and F-16s can be called in when they can't handle it. The second a Cub splashes a police helicopter, send in the ringknockers to clean it and fry it.

 

[Bravo3]

Nate,
You really need to consolidate your last couple of posts and turn it into a letter to AOPA and any and all GA aviation forums as a manifesto from all of the pilots who find the creeping police state (general aviation in particular) offensive and downright un-American.

Create a damn petition and I'll be on the top of the list.

 

[Jay Honeck]

The R22 was also rhetorical. Do the Chicago police no longer have real helicopters? Does the Air Force own a telephone?



Ahh, there's where we probably really differ. You assume I even care about our VIPs. Or think they're VIPs in the first place. Or deserve special protection. They're politicians. A dime a dozen. They deserve the same 90 second response time from the Chicago Police (on a good day) that the Citizen standing outside the Grand Birthday Hall would receive when they dial 911.

Why bring up Fox? It's interesting you used them specifically instead of saying "news media". Just a side-thought as I was reading your rant.

The "stay home and have a nice cake" pretty much covered it for me. Myrtle's right. If the President wants to go to Chicago for a birthday party, fine. Leave me, Myrtle, and our lives out of it. Nobody cares.

Don't drag the security blankie TFR around and "investigate" anyone who got within 30 nm in a light aircraft.

We're so sorry we didn't pay $10K a plate to attend the party after passing through the metal detectors and facial recognition scanners to see the Great Wizard of Oz eat his birthday cake, but oh yeah... We could care less about sucking up to the Great and Powerful Oz.

Doesn't matter which Party or ideology either. No one with a real life gives a ... about a Presidential birthday party.



Oh hell, read some stuff by some people doing real military intercepts during the Cold War. They couldn't "assess their intentions" at all.

They were flying alongside Russian Bears and Backfires for one reason only... To put a Sidewinder up their ass if they launched anything.

There's not a human alive who can assess the intentions of another by looking at them through a Cub's side window. What a crock of BS.



It was NORDO but I'll put $20 down that she was squawking 1200 from wheels up at a well-known airport to wheels down. She flies that airplane EVERY DAY.

You've hit on the REAL reason though. No military brass is NOT going to launch fighters against anything for fear of the repercussions if the completely unlikely did happen.

You want to be able to say you "did something" in the blame-game afterward at those levels.

Imagine if they'd have just had a Rolodex and the local police chopper crew on standby... and the police chopper didn't launch due to a mechanical problem.

That's the reason F-16s were used. Agencies don't trust each other to get things done.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When all you've managed to put on stand-by is a couple of F-16s in Toledo, everything looks like a bandit at Red Flag. You train like you fight.

Perhaps they need to train to talk to local agencies and learn about local resources? Just sayin'.



Never said they do any of that. You must have made it up in your head.

I said that the whole premise that "she wasn't supposed to be there" is flawed, right from the start.

VIP TFRs are retarded. Beyond retarded. And their implementation is even worse. They're mobile "violation/suspicion cylinders" of airspace that pop up out of nowhere for folks who don't care where these so-called VIPs go, or what they do with their time.

If TFR violations are such a problem (and they are... and continue to be...) you'd think after a decade of this silliness, the powers that be could figure out how to place a helicopter on stand-by as close to the center of the TFR as possible and not launch fighters from another State?

Frankly, my assessment is that they DO NOT WANT TO. The screaming fighters across the sky and resulting news media reports keep the budget money flowing.

A helicopter flying over to look at a Cub isn't even newsworthy. In fact, it wouldn't even make the last story slot on the local boob tube unless it were a slow news day.

Remember the line from "The Right Stuff"?

"No bucks, no Buck Rogers."



Yep. Agreed.

When you make up threats and create TFRs and plop them over the locations of sociopaths who think they're greater than the rest of us and deserve protection from the Citizenry who are "investigated" if they get too close...

You're absolutely right. Nothing good has, or will come from it.

The powers that be can be especially proud of intercepting a 75 year old lady in a Cub who goes flying every day to prove their "readiness" to protect against a non-existent threat they made up out of thin air in my lifetime.

The crews won't be proud. They'll probably give their squadron buddies the "Grandma Intercept" award made up of a pair of Depends nailed to a plauque in the squadron ready-room. Maybe a challenge coin with a Cub chasing the "six" of an F-16. Then they'll toss back a couple and laugh. The crews know what's important and what's funny.

Think anyone ever flew a light aircraft near any of the VIPs before TFRs? I'm sure I did. Probably multiple ones.

I used to listen to the baseball game on the ADF while doing a quick lap around the Stadium too. Was pretty fun.

I was a Free American in my airplane.

Now I'm a "target" and a "threat" if I do that.

This in a Country that has much more wrong with it in the back rooms of Washington -- problems that can and have caused more damage to it -- than anything I could do with a Skylane or Myrtle could do with her Cub.

If all we have left for our military to accomplish is to scramble fighters to look at Cubs that stray too close to the Wizard of Oz here in Emerald City, perhaps our priorities are now royally and thoroughly f-ed?

I'm pretty sure a young man or woman died today in Afghanistan who would have appreciated another fully-loaded F-16 overhead -- instead of it sitting in Toledo on hot-standby ready to save the President from a Super Cub.

I'm also sure your plan is the right one and that I'm anti-military because you said so.

You're fun. I think anywhere a VIP goes he should have an entourage of Generals who toss rose petals at his feet. I think the real troops would get a kick out of that. Might help morale to distribute some videos of that.

This gets my nomination for post of the week, month, year. It addresses EVERYTHING that is wrong with these absurd TFRs, in a nice, neat, concise rant.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Hey, iwin and Dave Taylor: I know and work with these pilots on a daily basis. It is not an easy mission since they all know that they might be told to shoot down an airliner full of mostly innocent people, and live with the consequences.(or have you already forgotten 9-11 and its impact?)

These are the same guys who also go to Iraq and Afghanistan for months at a time.

If you think they enjoy chasing after a moron in a spam can who didn't bother to get a briefing you are sadly mistaken. Your flip comments disrespect the men and women who fly these missions as well as all the missions we are given.

There used to be a guy posting here that did the interceptions. Didn't seem to enjoy it much.

I think the problem is not that "we" have forgotten 9/11/01 but that we really have forgotten 1/5/02 and the difference in the results.
(Note: The aircraft in the 1/5 attack was intercepted. The pilot ignored the hand gestures made by the helicopter crew and flew into the building anyhow.)

Further, I suspect that 9/11 style aircraft were flying in and out of ORD purd near nonstop while the president was there. Right?
One rogue pilot.
By the time that someone realizes that the aircraft has deviated from the expected track it will be way too late to do anything. How long would it take from deviation to impact? 200-300 seconds?
One ****ed off political fringe pilot.
Our military pilots really don't need to worry about the possibility of having to shoot down an airliner full of people - it will be over long before they get there.

Which kind of attack should we be most concerned about - 9/11 or 1/05?
Which kind of attack are the TFRs designed to prevent?
How does this make sense?

If we need a TFR for security, we need a TFR that shuts down the high risk aircraft as well as the minimal risk aircraft. Of course, that wouldn't be popular with people on their way to Disney World.

On the other hand, our dear little old lady really should have known better given the fact that her strip is right there next to Chicago and the President has been know to visit on occasion. Yea, her computer was broken (her claim), but how hard is a phone call? 1-800-wxbrief - didn't even have to look that up. I'm sure she had a phone in the house. One has to keep one's own butt covered and not be stoopid.

 

[steingar]

Hey, iwin and Dave Taylor: I know and work with these pilots on a daily basis. It is not an easy mission since they all know that they might be told to shoot down an airliner full of mostly innocent people, and live with the consequences.(or have you already forgotten 9-11 and its impact?)

These are the same guys who also go to Iraq and Afghanistan for months at a time.

If you think they enjoy chasing after a moron in a spam can who didn't bother to get a briefing you are sadly mistaken. Your flip comments disrespect the men and women who fly these missions as well as all the missions we are given.

I would happily trade places and go chase cubs with a fire-breathing fighter jet. Really I would.

Personally, I think they should be very, very grateful to the American taxpayers. They get to fly top-of-the-line aircraft on our nickel. But like I said, if it gets too hard for them, I'll happily fill in. Don't thank me, it's my patriotic duty, since useless security theatre is just so hard on those pilots.

 

[azure]

On the other hand, our dear little old lady really should have known better given the fact that her strip is right there next to Chicago and the President has been know to visit on occasion. Yea, her computer was broken (her claim), but how hard is a phone call? 1-800-wxbrief - didn't even have to look that up. I'm sure she had a phone in the house. One has to keep one's own butt covered and not be stoopid.

And the lesson is: you too could become an international laughingstock if you forget, even just once, to check for TFRs. I'm sure Myrtle Rose won't make that mistake again, but the question is, will the FAA even give her the opportunity? I hope she doesn't get Hoovered over this -- apart from going after her ticket, some of her comments to reporters could be taken as evidence of mental incapacity. I thought she was being self-effacing, but I'm not an FAA inspector.

Sadly, the popular outcry is all too predictable.

http://dekerivers.wordpress.com/2011/08/06/myrtle-rose-too-stupid-to-ever-fly-her-plane-again/

 

[Bob Noel]

I would happily trade places and go chase cubs with a fire-breathing fighter jet. Really I would.

Personally, I think they should be very, very grateful to the American taxpayers. They get to fly top-of-the-line aircraft on our nickel. But like I said, if it gets too hard for them, I'll happily fill in. Don't thank me, it's my patriotic duty, since useless security theatre is just so hard on those pilots.

I might be missing a thread of sarcasm, but I just want to comment that if any of these intercept pilots are unhappy about their tasks, I believe it'll be because they know how much of a waste the intercepts are. Nobody with the drive and skills of these pilots enjoys wasting time doing useless tasks.

 

[Bob Noel]

And the lesson is: you too could become an international laughingstock if you forget, even just once, to check for TFRs. /

The people who are getting in a tizzy over her flying that dangerous aircraft are the candidates for being laughingstocks.

 

[steingar]

I might be missing a thread of sarcasm, but I just want to comment that if any of these intercept pilots are unhappy about their tasks, I believe it'll be because they know how much of a waste the intercepts are. Nobody with the drive and skills of these pilots enjoys wasting time doing useless tasks.

Never saw you post anything so dumb Bob. There isn't such a thing as a task too stupid to not be fun in an F15.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Never saw you post anything so dumb Bob. There isn't such a thing as a task too stupid to not be fun in an F15.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=608174&postcount=16

 

[steingar]

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=608174&postcount=16

I will happily fly those missions for that poor fellow. Where do I sign up?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I will happily fly those missions for that poor fellow. Where do I sign up?

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