Insurance

4RNB said:
The data point of AOPA VREF is also valid
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True. And worth exactly nothing. The only truly “valid” value of the plane is the amount of the check you deposited after you sold it. Anything else is a guess. And the insurance company doesn’t like your guess. My advice is to try and find someone to buy it for that much, and sell it. Then you will be proven correct. Which still won’t solve your problem. Your problem is that underwriters don’t want to insure a 225k 172. They figure the odds of you making a claim for more than you’ve paid them are too great. Period.
 
4RNB said:
I just ran AOPA VREF, dont have the full avionics install list in front of me, likely missed some things (ok, I know I missed 2 G5s), and the number is 218K
So, I will stick to my guns that the 228K listed online is a GREAT starting point
AND I'd like to bring the discussion back on topic on how I can best deal with the insurance market.
My 50 ish yr old plane, with new engine, new avionics, and new paint, deserves to be insured better. I am willing to pay up to insure against losses as it can not be replaced for the value currently insured for.
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Forget Vref. Insurance won’t use that. Get yourself a reputable and recognized airplane appraiser. You’ll have better luck. Also, keep in mind, plane prices are severely overinflated right now. This time next year when the recession takes full hold, prices will drop, BUT, the insurance companies won’t be able to go back through all their insured and drop hull values, so they are extremely reluctant to “over” insure them now.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
If you are having difficulty insuring your plane....something is off kilter.....your expectations.o_O
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i mostly agree and suspect that the process being used to determine the value of the aircraft in question may be flawed. Nonetheless, the insurance industry is changing, and has caused some outliers more trouble when trying to adequately insure an aircraft. I recall at least one other similar thread on this board in the recent past.

I suspect the insurance underwriters view these 40-60 year old upgraded aircraft the same way most people would view an 85 year old woman with cosmetic surgery and a nice dress - she may look pretty on the outside but she’s still old on the inside. No life insurance company is going to take her on either.

In one of my instances where an insurance underwriter would not insure the aircraft for my declared value, the value was well within fair market value. The aircraft had a lot of modifications on it, some of which were quite expensive, and would not be reflected by simply looking at make and model year on paper to decide. It took an itemized list of modifications and some photos for the underwriters to realize that they weren’t insuring a 40 year old derelict aircraft. I suspect the OP will be headed in that direction to get this aircraft insured if a concession on agreed upon value is not taken.
 
“That said, think about it like this: You bought a '72 Pinto. You put in a bigger engine, leather interior, fancy wheels, and put a nice paint job on it. All told, you have $45,000 into it. The only way you're going to get that kind of coverage is if you go with some type of specialty insurance.”

And you’d still only have a Pinto.
 
There is also the case that in this economy a $218,000 172 of today may be worth $150,000 in eight months, just because of a possible general drop in prices. Some owners may then consider the option of a full insurance payment as an attractive way to preserve their invested capital. The insurer may not want to take the risk of an economic downturn, and that should be respected as a fair business decision.
 
4RNB said:
No NO NO
218 is AOPA VREF for my plane.
Have I not written that clearly before? Is my written communication unclear?

Upon what basis is my plane not worth that much?
Perhaps based upon your values?

I started at 228K based upon available used plane listings and thinking mine would be better featured. That is a data point.

The data point of AOPA VREF is also valid.

And the discussion is about how to increase my insured value when my insurer would not do so last year.

Even the base case (original avionics) on AOPA is >30K more than purchase price AND insured value. Surely that is a minimum to increase insurance by.

I have never discussed how much $$$ I have put into the plane.

This is not supposed to be a discussion about the value of my plane, but about insuring the plane.
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I’ll say it again - different insurers use different value guides. Avemco used vref to quote me and it was insanely high (as was the premium). They wouldn’t go lower than 80% of the vref value, which was also way too high. Call them directly (other agents cannot quote Avemco policies). They should be able to give you a different hull than you got elsewhere.

Assured is just an agency so they’re shopping your policy to a bunch of companies. Likely not much more you can do without a different agency. Ladd Gardner’s agency has some people that understand how to get quotes on unique airplanes. Maybe call them.
 
4RNB said:
No NO NO
218 is AOPA VREF for my plane.
Have I not written that clearly before? Is my written communication unclear?

Upon what basis is my plane not worth that much?
Perhaps based upon your values?
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What you are clearly writing here is that you think AOPA VREF is a fundamental law of the universe.

It is not. It's just an arbitrary number spit out by some algorithm that holds as much weight in reality as a fervent wish.

You need to accept that, step back, and rethink the foundations of your argument.
 
aggie06 said:
I’ll say it again - different insurers use different value guides. Avemco used vref to quote me and it was insanely high (as was the premium). They wouldn’t go lower than 80% of the vref value, which was also way too high. Call them directly (other agents cannot quote Avemco policies). They should be able to give you a different hull than you got elsewhere.

Assured is just an agency so they’re shopping your policy to a bunch of companies. Likely not much more you can do without a different agency. Ladd Gardner’s agency has some people that understand how to get quotes on unique airplanes. Maybe call them.
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Thanks, I applied online with Avemco yesterday. VREF would be nice. Not sure about the premium yet. I like the chance to have things like Wings credit discount the insurance.
 
Last year my dad wanted to up his hull value on his Cherokee Six to 125k and got some pretty hard pushback. New paint, new interior. Comparable planes were in the 150-175 range.

Hull value is not aircraft value. It's just the maximum an insurer will give you. You're playing their game as there's only a few underwriters. Go ahead and shop brokers, but once you're n-number is entered the underwriters numbers won't change.

https://www.duncanaviation.aero/intelligence/2022/April/q-a-aircraft-hull-value-adjustments-in-volatile-market-conditions#:~:text=It is important to note,so insureds should plan accordingly.
 
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Sifossifoco said:
There is also the case that in this economy a $218,000 172 of today may be worth $150,000 in eight months, just because of a possible general drop in prices. Some owners may then consider the option of a full insurance payment as an attractive way to preserve their invested capital. The insurer may not want to take the risk of an economic downturn, and that should be respected as a fair business decision.
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That is a very good point that many folks do not consider.
 
4RNB said:
No NO NO
218 is AOPA VREF for my plane.
Have I not written that clearly before? Is my written communication unclear?

Upon what basis is my plane not worth that much?
Perhaps based upon your values?

I started at 228K based upon available used plane listings and thinking mine would be better featured. That is a data point.

The data point of AOPA VREF is also valid.

And the discussion is about how to increase my insured value when my insurer would not do so last year.

Even the base case (original avionics) on AOPA is >30K more than purchase price AND insured value. Surely that is a minimum to increase insurance by.

I have never discussed how much $$$ I have put into the plane.

This is not supposed to be a discussion about the value of my plane, but about insuring the plane.
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Put it up for sale and see what you can actually sell it for.

VREF is an ESTIMATE based on what is installed. No where does it say that you can sell your plane for that price.

And many of the things are no directly additive. VREF will let you say you have 5 GTN750Xis installed. But no one is going to buy the plane based on that. Unless they plan on selling them.

As for your last sentence, welcome to the internet and real life. Conversations drift. Just because you started it, doesn't mean you control it.
 
I think you have done all you can do at this point. Experience, ratings, etc. will help with premiums but won't likely influence whether or not a company will underwrite a policy for a hull value you're interested in. I don't believe you will have much luck, if any, calling underwriters directly. Once you work with one broker, Assured Partners in your case, others are not likely to be able to find you what you're looking for if Assured Partners can't. Avemco is the exception and you have already contacted them (though I have found email/online engagement with them doesn't work, I have always had to contact them by phone). Good luck with it!
 
Just talked to Avemco and received a tentative quote.
They will insure for VREF for completed work.
It costs a lot more!
 
4RNB said:
Just talked to Avemco and received a tentative quote.
They will insure for VREF for completed work.
It costs a lot more!
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congrats?
 
The other thing to think about with a high value is what happens if you do crash it. The normal thing is, if the damage is less than 70% of the insured value, they repair.

$152,000 of damage is a LOT for a 172 airframe.
 
Pinecone said:
The other thing to think about with a high value is what happens if you do crash it. The normal thing is, if the damage is less than 70% of the insured value, they repair.

$152,000 of damage is a LOT for a 172 airframe.
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Yup. It’ll be in the shop for years.
 
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