Incident at Oshkosh

[TEFLONSEAN]

How can you maintain controlled airspace and runway environment when you have no way of identifying aircraft other than by their color? I can't believe that this type of procedure and activity are continued to be used. It's a flawed system and something needs to be done to better handle the traffic. Close the airport for arrivals only on the main runway? It doesn't excuse the fact that my buddy found himself in a power off stall that could have been avoided but measures need to be taken to ensure this type of incursion doesn't happen again at OSH or anywhere for that matter.



And...

After 100,000's of safe landings at OSH over the years, the owner in now wanting the FAA and the EAA to change procedures because his pilot made a bone headed move.....

Agree.

Owner already stated pilot was 90kts on short final. Procedurally he was already too slow and when the **** hit the fan he stalled it. In a PA 46 you should be at 90kts over the numbers. Pilots decision to go around was too little too late with not enough airspeed.

 

[Henning]

Agree.

Owner already stated pilot was 90kts on short final. Procedurally he was already too slow and when the **** hit the fan he stalled it. In a PA 46 you should be at 90kts over the numbers. Pilots decision to go around was too little too late with not enough airspeed.

Vso at gross is going to be 58 or so, 90 is over 1.5 Vso, I wouldn't want to be over the fence over 75 and over the numbers at 65, and that's heavy. It has to meet Single Engine certification standards. There is no certified single engine plane that should be anywhere close to 90 kts on short final.

 

[TEFLONSEAN]

Vso at gross is going to be 58 or so, 90 is over 1.5 Vso, I wouldn't want to be over the fence over 75 and over the numbers at 65, and that's heavy. It has to meet Single Engine certification standards. There is no certified single engine plane that should be anywhere close to 90 kts on short final.

Wrong....but try again. Obvious you and the pilot havent had proper training for the PA 46.

It's why he stalled it.

But your the best of the best here....so we won't doubt your ever ending knowledge.

 

[Geico266]

Certificate not required, you are welcome to fly in in your ultralight as well.

My first OSH was flying into the UL area. Had to divert to a hay field so the powered parachutes could get out of the way.

I've been to the Ripon route dozens of times now, and I'm looking forward to the helo approach!

 

[German guy]

Vso at gross is going to be 58 or so, 90 is over 1.5 Vso, I wouldn't want to be over the fence over 75 and over the numbers at 65, and that's heavy. [...]

 

[fiveoboy01]

That's sort of a pointless conversation considering the accident airplane was in a steep bank, and the approach was far from typical.

 

[Henning]

Wrong....but try again. Obvious you and the pilot havent had proper training for the PA 46.

It's why he stalled it.

But your the best of the best here....so we won't doubt your ever ending knowledge.

Please, give me the numbers in your PA-46 AFM. Considering the energy and altitude, I would bet the stall was an accelerated stall out of the steep approach. 1.5+Vso doesn't just "stall", you have to add load factor.

 

[TEFLONSEAN]

Please, give me the numbers in your PA-46 AFM. Considering the energy and altitude, I would bet the stall was an accelerated stall out of the steep approach. 1.5+Vso doesn't just "stall", you have to add load factor.

He was 90kts short final....so likely much slower when decided to go around....most likely pulled up....got slower and stalled.

This wasn't a steep bank on final as everyone here assumes it was....the steep bank was a product of the stall at low alt and he got too slow.

Try to fly the book numbers and you will understand why the PA 46 has one of the worst crash records in general aviation.

 

[TEFLONSEAN]

That's sort of a pointless conversation considering the accident airplane was in a steep bank, and the approach was far from typical.

Wrong....the steep bank was a product of the stall.

Don't believe everything you read......no PA 46 pilot is going to attempt what has been posted here....no matter how proficient the pilot was.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Wrong....the steep bank was a product of the stall.

Don't believe everything you read......no PA 46 pilot is going to attempt what has been posted here....no matter how proficient the pilot was.

I spoke to someone who witnessed it and his account doesn't agree with what you say. I'll believe him.

 

[Kritchlow]

Wrong....the steep bank was a product of the stall.

Don't believe everything you read......no PA 46 pilot is going to attempt what has been posted here....no matter how proficient the pilot was.

Sheesh... You just keep telling everyone "wrong"
What makes you the master of this event? Perhaps you are the master and I overlooked the credentials, but perhaps you could state them again?

 

[Theboys]

I kind of like about 70 over numbers in malibu. 90 would take 4000 ft runway for comfort. 65 or 70 could get by on 2000

 

[drotto]

Is there a commonality in what eyewitnesses are reporting?

 

[TEFLONSEAN]

I kind of like about 70 over numbers in malibu. 90 would take 4000 ft runway for comfort. 65 or 70 could get by on 2000

Yikes

Really??? 90 over numbers will get a maybe 65-70 by captains bars once you squeeze power with speed brakes....happens even faster in the Meridian....won't even get close to 4k.

 

[bnt83]

I kind of like about 70 over numbers in malibu. 90 would take 4000 ft runway for comfort. 65 or 70 could get by on 2000

The last time I was with you in the malibu we landed in lincoln with a light tailwind into 17 and what seemed like 90ish over the numbers. It was loooong lol

 

[TEFLONSEAN]

My dad was #2 and his instructor in the right seat saw it all happen.

I also spoke to a few people on the flight line.

Over banked base to final turn, one wing hit first.

There was NOT another aircraft involved at least in the collision.

I'm not aware of what situation happened if there was another aircraft on the runway or whatnot so I won't speculate on that.

The right seater in my dads plane is shocked that anyone survived the impact.

Let's go back to what your statement is.....

"Over banked base to final turn....one wing hit first"

Do we have this correct???

How did the aircraft land on the airport? If this is the case??

Quite certain the pilot didn't turn base to final on the numbers.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Anyone got an update on the crash? Is everyone okay now?

 

[fiveoboy01]

I've been watching and I haven't seen that anyone as died, so far so good there I think.

I was up in the tower on Friday but didn't think to ask the controller about it. Probably wouldn't have anyways.

 

[nddons]

If you can fly your own plane ok, there's nothing to worry about. People who fly in here are always worried about everyone else, but about 99% of the stuff that happens at Oshkosh is the pilot's own fault.

I've flown in three and out two times just this week. I've got at least one more trip in and two out to go. I've probably flown in and out of here two dozen times during the show. Yes, there will be chuckleheads who aren't on their game, but if you're on yours you'll be fine.

Flying into Oshkosh should be on every pilot's bucket list.

Kent, I marshaled you on Saturday coming northbound out of "the ditch" at Papa 1 and I turned you right to cross the threshold of 18. I presumed that wasn't your first trip into the show.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Wth! That is crazy low. Just go around.

Wow! I can't imagine being that low turning final.

Who turns base to final at 30'??

Hate to say it, but if you turn final at 30', I'm not sure you know what you're doing.

Clearly you guys haven't flown to OSH. That's how the approach to 18R is done. You start your descent turning crosswind to downwind, fly your base at the tower/blue dot (you do NOT get to even get to the point where you're abeam the numbers to keep you out of the 9/27 arrivals/departures), turn "final", flare, land. There's not much of a final to speak of.

It seems to be the 18R approach that bites the most pilots who decide to come to OSH when they are not proficient in their airplane.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I saw a DC3 do that early in the week. It looked cool

 

[kyleb]

I saw a DC3 do that early in the week. It looked cool

I've done it several times over the years. The key is to maintain downwind to runway spacing that is appropriate to your skills and airplane. A Cub can certainly fly a tighter downwind than I can in the RV, and I can fly a tighter downwind than someone in a Mooney, Comanche, or Malibu.

 

[Kritchlow]

Clearly you guys haven't flown to OSH. That's how the approach to 18R is done. You start your descent turning crosswind to downwind, fly your base at the tower/blue dot (you do NOT get to even get to the point where you're abeam the numbers to keep you out of the 9/27 arrivals/departures), turn "final", flare, land. There's not much of a final to speak of.

It seems to be the 18R approach that bites the most pilots who decide to come to OSH when they are not proficient in their airplane.

No, I have never been to Oshkosh. Perhaps I'm taking "turn final at 30 feet" too literally. I just don't see how that's physically possible, especially using the aforementioned 60 degrees of bank.

 

[kyleb]

No, I have never been to Oshkosh. Perhaps I'm taking "turn final at 30 feet" too literally. I just don't see how that's physically possible, especially using the aforementioned 60 degrees of bank.

You'd be dumb to be in a base to final 60 degree bank at 30'. But lots of arrivals are in a 20 degree bank at 50' or less.

 

[Kritchlow]

You'd be dumb to be in a base to final 60 degree bank at 30'. But lots of arrivals are in a 20 degree bank at 50' or less.

I do believe that, especially if they're rolling out at 50 feet. That is much different than turning final at 30 feet.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd like to see cameras installed recording everything and then have some action against people like that.

No. Freaking. Kidding.

It drives me NUTS how many people who fly into OSH don't follow the procedures. (Step 1: SHUT UP unless ATC asks you a question!)

The worst I've ever experienced was someone who landed 27 without talking to ANYONE while we were all landing on 9 - And then just took off, right into the flow of traffic that was on final!

This week wasn't so bad for me, though I did end up behind three different chuckleheads in my five arrivals this year. The first was just some guy in a high-wing taildragger that insisted on flying almost to the lakeshore before turning base for 27 and landing on the threshold despite ATC repeatedly asking him to make a short approach and "turn base NOW!"

The second was a C310 who took an instruction at Fisk for a "high-wing taildragger". I had to peel out and go back to Ripon for that one. (So did he, but he rejoined halfway up the tracks.)

The other was a Bonanza that just would NOT get off the runway into the grass, also right in front of me. Easy enough, ATC just sidestepped me to 36R on that one. Ended up parked next to the guy, and he told us how he'd flown an hour of IMC on his trip in without a flight plan and he had an index card taped over his failed AI. "I'm instrument rated, so it's OK." A couple days later, he was asking us where he could buy some beer and in the next sentence he was telling us how he just got his departure briefing.

The key to flying into OSH is knowing your airplane and the procedures, flying them to the letter, and being ready to change plans at any instant. ATC will frequently change plans to compensate for what the chuckleheads do.

 

[nddons]

No. Freaking. Kidding.

It drives me NUTS how many people who fly into OSH don't follow the procedures. (Step 1: SHUT UP unless ATC asks you a question!)

The worst I've ever experienced was someone who landed 27 without talking to ANYONE while we were all landing on 9 - And then just took off, right into the flow of traffic that was on final!

This week wasn't so bad for me, though I did end up behind two different chuckleheads. The first was just some guy in a high-wing taildragger that insisted on flying almost to the lakeshore before turning base for 27 and landing on the threshold despite ATC repeatedly asking him to make a short approach and "turn base NOW!"

The other was a Bonanza that just would NOT get off the runway into the grass, also right in front of me. Easy enough, ATC just sidestepped me to 36R on that one. Ended up parked next to the guy, and he told us how he'd flown an hour of IMC on his trip in without a flight plan and he had an index card taped over his failed AI. "I'm instrument rated, so it's OK." A couple days later, he was asking us where he could buy some beer and in the next sentence he was telling us how he just got his departure briefing.

The key to flying into OSH is knowing your airplane and the procedures, flying them to the letter, and being ready to change plans at any instant. ATC will frequently change plans to compensate for what the chuckleheads do.

I usually have my Nav/Com tuned to the arrival freq. when working the Flightline, and I've seen and heard all of those things. I was stunned to see the number of pilots who would just not exit the runway despite ATC's instructions to do so ASAP. It's like they all of the sudden have glass nose gear and are afraid to go into the grass.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I do believe that, especially if they're rolling out at 50 feet. That is much different than turning final at 30 feet.

You don't start the turn at 30 feet, you do finish it at 30-50 feet or even less.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Kent, I marshaled you on Saturday coming northbound out of "the ditch" at Papa 1 and I turned you right to cross the threshold of 18. I presumed that wasn't your first trip into the show.

Cool! I have you on video then - My right-seat pax was the vice chairman of EAA Video and there were GoPros all over the airplane. They wanted to get some video of the arrival.

You're right, that wasn't my first trip into Airventure 2015 - I was in and out five times this year! I flew in Sunday while my wife drove the SUV with all the stuff in it. I flew her home and flew back in again (#2). Tuesday, a club plane needed a new MP gauge and the FBO wanted $560 to have an overhauled one overnighted in. I figured that at OSH, *somebody* had to have an MP gauge. Found one for $75, flew it out to the shop, flew back in (#3). Thursday, I flew out to pick up my wife (#4), and then did the video run on Saturday (#5).

I noticed they had the strobe at Fisk again this year, at least one of the times. Hope they do that some more. The most common problem I see on the arrival is airplanes taking instructions for planes in front of them.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I had a handheld on Sunday and I was fairly stupified at the number of pilots repeating ATC instructions... Notam is pretty clear on that, and everything else for that matter.

 

[nddons]

Cool! I have you on video then - My right-seat pax was the vice chairman of EAA Video and there were GoPros all over the airplane. They wanted to get some video of the arrival.

You're right, that wasn't my first trip into Airventure 2015 - I was in and out five times this year! I flew in Sunday while my wife drove the SUV with all the stuff in it. I flew her home and flew back in again (#2). Tuesday, a club plane needed a new MP gauge and the FBO wanted $560 to have an overhauled one overnighted in. I figured that at OSH, *somebody* had to have an MP gauge. Found one for $75, flew it out to the shop, flew back in (#3). Thursday, I flew out to pick up my wife (#4), and then did the video run on Saturday (#5).

I noticed they had the strobe at Fisk again this year, at least one of the times. Hope they do that some more. The most common problem I see on the arrival is airplanes taking instructions for planes in front of them.

Cool! I was wearing my blue "PT-26 CAF Wi Wing" hat.

 

[topsail]

Just a note on experience. I usually fly into FonD Du Lac because of the craziness that is Oshkosh. For fun I fly a Husky. I fly a Mirage for business, my usual mission is 400 to 1000 miles and I often fly into airports that are new to me. On buses back and forth to Oshkosh from KFLD I spoke so several pilots that have rarely left their own pattern and many of those have been flying for years. This really surprised me. I ask you what could possibly go wrong with such a mix of experience and inexperience? Obviously you know the answer.

 

[narchee]

I have often told friends who ask me about Oshkosh that if I ever end up in an airplane crash, it will probably be at Oshkosh. It is insane. But I would not give it up for anything. The majority of those who fly in are competent I am convinced. There are some who should not be there and others who don't/won't listen to instructions or have not read the NOTAM. They are in the minority. I hope my luck continues to hold out and I won't clash with this small minority.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I have often told friends who ask me about Oshkosh that if I ever end up in an airplane crash, it will probably be at Oshkosh. It is insane.

I have flown into OSH a gazillion times over the last 33 years (okay, I may be exagerrating a little) and have never found it to be insane.

You want insane? Go to a fly in like Reklaw, where there are NO arrival procedures and 500 planes inbound. Oshkosh is morning in Sunday school, by comparison.

Oshkosh has precisely defined procedures that -- so long as everyone follows them -- makes arriving/departing safe and easy.

 

[champ driver]

I do believe that, especially if they're rolling out at 50 feet. That is much different than turning final at 30 feet.

And THAT was exactly what I was trying to explain earlier to you. You seemed to be hung up on starting a turn at 30' with a 60 degree bank.

 

[narchee]

I have flown into OSH a gazillion times over the last 33 years (okay, I may be exagerrating a little) and have never found it to be insane.

You want insane? Go to a fly in like Reklaw, where there are NO arrival procedures and 500 planes inbound. Oshkosh is morning in Sunday school, by comparison.

Oshkosh has precisely defined procedures that -- so long as everyone follows them -- makes arriving/departing safe and easy.

And you would know how? You fly in before it gets busy and fly out when everyone else has left

Seriously though most of the time it flows smoothly. There are times when it gets insane like after the airport opened again following the malibu accident. They do handle it well though and stop the arrivals from coming just when it is starting to get out of control.

 

[Jay Honeck]

And you would know how? You fly in before it gets busy and fly out when everyone else has left

Seriously though most of the time it flows smoothly. There are times when it gets insane like after the airport opened again following the malibu accident. They do handle it well though and stop the arrivals from coming just when it is starting to get out of control.

Sunday was the busiest we have seen the FISK Approach in years. I have got to figure out how to turn off "traffic alerts" in my EFIS/headset cuz they were nonstop and really annoying. lol

As always, it all worked out. There was a guy who cut in ahead of us beyond Ripon, but at least he got his speed and altitude right, so no harm done.

Flying out of OSH is absolutely bone simple, no matter when you leave. You may sit in line, but when you get to the front and launch, it's out and gone.

EAA really has their act together.

 

[N801BH]

Sunday was the busiest we have seen the FISK Approach in years. I have got to figure out how to turn off "traffic alerts" in my EFIS/headset cuz they were nonstop and really annoying. lol

As always, it all worked out. There was a guy who cut in ahead of us beyond Ripon, but at least he got his speed and altitude right, so no harm done.

Flying out of OSH is absolutely bone simple, no matter when you leave. You may sit in line, but when you get to the front and launch, it's out and gone.

EAA really has their act together.

I agree.... It is a time tested, well oiled machine...

 

[flyingron]

...or the AOPA HQ flyin. I've never seen a bigger screw up. Controllers who "think" they are at Oshkosh and pilots who haven't even read the notam let alone beginning to follow instructions.

I fly in and out of OSH many times during the show. Controllers will try to push you along to keep the flow going but don't do anything unsafe. It's not a disaster if you miss the dot.

[By the way FLO guys...I'm the one with the alternate "You look good in Orange" and "Thank You" signs (I also have one that says "You look good in pink" for the controllers).
These are interleaved with my MVFR sign for departure.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

...or the AOPA HQ flyin. I've never seen a bigger screw up. Controllers who "think" they are at Oshkosh and pilots who haven't even read the notam let alone beginning to follow instructions.

I think one big detriment to safety at OSH is... Sun 'n' Fun.

You can fly into SnF without reading the NOTAM and be fine - Hell, they read it to you on the ATIS, then Lake Parker Arrival controllers pretty much read it to you again, then the tower tells you what's left. I was appalled when I flew in there.

If someone flies into SnF to try out the "big show experience" and thinks OSH is going to be the same, they are going to be sorely mistaken and woefully unprepared.