Incident at Oshkosh

N801BH said:
Well,,, I do sometimes....:redface:...

Ya just have to know what you are doing...:yes:;)
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Hate to say it, but if you turn final at 30', I'm not sure you know what you're doing.
 
Kritchlow said:
Hate to say it, but if you turn final at 30', I'm not sure you know what you're doing.
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You've never done a tight base to final turn where the wings rolled level right at touchdown? Might want to hone your flying skills. The ability to excute that kind of maneuver could save your bacon one day.
 
kyleb said:
You've never done a tight base to final turn where the wings rolled level right at touchdown? Might want to hone your flying skills. The ability to excute that kind of maneuver could save your bacon one day.
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Really??
 
Kritchlow said:
Really??
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Yup

During a engine failure I had to do something similar, beats the trees, worked fine for me.

As for the OSH incident I would have just gone around, no need to put yourself in that type of situation requiring those kind of maneuvers, especially somewhere like OSH IMO.
 
James331 said:
Yup

During a engine failure I had to do something similar, beats the trees, worked fine for me.

As for the OSH incident I would have just gone around, no need to put yourself in that type of situation requiring those kind of maneuvers, especially somewhere like OSH IMO.
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So we should all practice this to get proficient at it?
 
You never want to be low enough to hit the wings when maneuvering. You need to land straight & level, obviously. Very bad decision with a fully loaded plane and a high performance wing.
 
To be clear... Turn final at 30 feet. Not to be confused with turning final at 200 feet with 60 degree bank and rolling out at 30 feet.
 
Since we are all speculating - it might not be a 30 degree intentional bank, it could be pulling up too much with low power if he was really trying to avoid another aircraft and ending up in a "mush" / stall situation. That can drop a wing on you in a hurry.
 
kyleb said:
You've never done a tight base to final turn where the wings rolled level right at touchdown? Might want to hone your flying skills. The ability to excute that kind of maneuver could save your bacon one day.
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Sounds like a great way to wreck an airplane to me.
 
DavidWhite said:
Sounds like a great way to wreck an airplane to me.
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I think we've done it before in a Cub David... engine out practice maybe. Up to 30° you have marginal increase above stall speed (1.1 Gs?) . Over 30° that curve goes up pretty fast (2 Gs at 60°?).
I used to practice simulated engine out wheel landings on the numbers and if you have a crosswind from the wrong side of the downwind you have to adjust it when you get there.
 
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DavidWhite said:
Sounds like a great way to wreck an airplane to me.
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In the same way that swim lessons are a great way to drown.

You practice in controlled conditions to prepare for the day you need the skills for real.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I think we've done it before in a Cub David... engine out practice maybe. Up to 30° you have marginal increase above stall speed (1.1 Gs?) . Over 30° that curve goes up pretty fast (2 Gs at 60°?).
I used to practice simulated engine out wheel landings on the numbers and if you have a crosswind from the wrong side of the downwind you have to adjust it when you get there.
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We've done similar things, but never rolling out on final out of a bank and touching down immediately.

kyleb said:
In the same way that swim lessons are a great way to drown.

You practice in controlled conditions to prepare for the day you need the skills for real.
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You learn to swim in a pool you can stand in, but rolling out on final and touching down at the same time.....yeez.

I push the edge for a living (in some ways) in airplanes. One little gust of wind, or a bird, or a real failure? That could turn really really nasty in a hurry. In fact it did this morning.
 
DavidWhite said:
You've flown up here, you know exactly what I'm talking about.
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I've never flown on what I consider the edge with pax, same with that link to ACDCs big balls song you posted, if it requires that much risk I'm not taking someone's family up, many smoking holes up there.

Yeah, I'll fly weather, wind, whatever, but like that low turn stuff, know your limits and put a margin on it if anyone is in the plane, under the plane etc.

It's cool to put your plane on the edge, find your limits and everything, I just personally don't think that the time to do that is with pax aboard. :dunno:
 
kyleb said:
You've never done a tight base to final turn where the wings rolled level right at touchdown? Might want to hone your flying skills. The ability to excute that kind of maneuver could save your bacon one day.
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So might flying into the pattern and jumping out with a parachute. Still a bad idea to practice. Maybe practicing spin recovery at 1500' will save your bacon one day -- I'm glad to never find out.

Unless you're planning to glide to a slalom one day, I have to agree that this just sounds like a good way to wreck an airplane.
 
James331 said:
Yeah, I'll fly weather, wind, whatever, but like that low turn stuff, know your limits and put a margin on it if anyone is in the plane, under the plane etc
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I do every flight with pax like my mom is on the airplane, and I don't mess around when I'm by myself, either. Risk is relative. What I consider the edge some would consider normal, and what I consider normal some people would consider the edge. It all depends on your perspective. My job is to mitigate risk as much as possible, but if I can accomplish a flight with an acceptable amount of risk, then I will go. Sometimes I am on "the edge" of my personal risk limitation. I start every flight like I am not going, and piece together my "picture" of the conditions before I depart.

An excellent example of flying on "the edge" (to me)

The wind is blowing 25 knots out of the NE and you have a NW/SE runway that was previously covered with snow, but it has warmed up to 35 degrees and whatever hasn't been blown away has melted and now the runway is glare ice. To land, I would be forced to take a 20 knot crosswind component on a surface where I will not have any braking and very minimal traction. Is this an acceptable amount of risk to me? No. Would some people do it? Yes. Is it safe? Arguable, but I am not comfortable with it. Now take the wind out of the equation, and I would depart. Is it safe? Still arguable. Legal? Yes, however so was the other scenario. Would I do it with pax/mom? Yes. Would I still consider it the edge? Yes, because it is on the outer limit of what I am comfortable with.
 
All that to say, the edge is fluid, and not a solid hard number or set of circumstances that all pilots will recognize as such.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I think we've done it before in a Cub David... engine out practice maybe. Up to 30° you have marginal increase above stall speed (1.1 Gs?) . Over 30° that curve goes up pretty fast (2 Gs at 60°?).
I used to practice simulated engine out wheel landings on the numbers and if you have a crosswind from the wrong side of the downwind you have to adjust it when you get there.
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Just to clarify the above comments. Yes the stall speed go's up as the bank angle go's up, but, only if the wing is loaded as in trying to hold level flight. The key here is to not load the wing up.
Haven't any of you seen an airshow pilots do something similar without any problems?
I believe I've done a few of those kinds of turns to landings, but it's a whole different animal in a Malibu than a Cub or a Champ, and no, I didn't have passengers on board at the time. They were not 30 degree banks to touchdown, they were 30 degrees to roll out, and then flare.

The problem here is the type of plane and not doing the maneuver properly, and any other factors we don't really know about yet.
 
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champ driver said:
Just to clarify the above comments. Yes the stall speed go's up as the bank angle go's up, but, only if the wing is loaded as in trying to hold level flight. The key here is to not load the wing up.
Haven't any of you seen an airshow pilots do something similar without any problems?
I believe I've done a few of those kinds of turns to landings, but it's a whole different animal in a Malibu than a Cub or a Champ, and no, I didn't have passengers on board at the time. They were not 30 degree banks to touchdown, they were 30 degrees to roll out, and then flare.

The problem here is the type of plane and not doing the maneuver properly, and any other factors we don't really know about yet.
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If you start a turn to final at 30 feet, 60 degrees bank, and don't hold the nose up......
 
There are reasons why I have given up going to fly-in's
And guys like this Malibu driver are high on the list
 
champ driver said:
Just to clarify the above comments. Yes the stall speed go's up as the bank angle go's up, but, only if the wing is loaded as in trying to hold level flight. The key here is to not load the wing up.
Haven't any of you seen an airshow pilots do something similar without any problems?
I believe I've done a few of those kinds of turns to landings, but it's a whole different animal in a Malibu than a Cub or a Champ, and no, I didn't have passengers on board at the time. They were not 30 degree banks to touchdown, they were 30 degrees to roll out, and then flare.

The problem here is the type of plane and not doing the maneuver properly, and any other factors we don't really know about yet.
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:yeahthat:
 
Henning said:
I do too, but I try to be in the habit of getting one last alignment check as I line up on centerline.
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I do too, but it only takes a second or two to verify the DG, whiskey compass, and runway are all in agreement.
 
Kritchlow said:
If you start a turn to final at 30 feet, 60 degrees bank, and don't hold the nose up......
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Well...

If you are carrying enough airspeed, it can be done safely... You will just be landing down the runway a bit further..
 
N801BH said:
Well...

If you are carrying enough airspeed, it can be done safely... You will just be landing down the runway a bit further..
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I disagree this can be done safely, but to each their own I suppose.
 
Maneuvering down to the runway isn't a problem, pulling 60°+ bank turns is taking things a bit too far.
 
Henning said:
Maneuvering down to the runway isn't a problem, pulling 60°+ bank turns is taking things a bit too far.
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It is all about the type of flying one does...... If someone likes to do a 5 mile, straight in final with a stabilized approach, I say have at it... If you want to fly some serious backcountry strips where you are in a canyon, making blind turns to a 1/8 mile short final and having to dodge 100 tall trees to line up on the runway... then you better bring on your A game..... I practice for those days, and it must work, as I am still alive to type this...:rolleyes:....;)
 
N801BH said:
It is all about the type of flying one does...... If someone likes to do a 5 mile, straight in final with a stabilized approach, I say have at it... If you want to fly some serious backcountry strips where you are in a canyon, making blind turns to a 1/8 mile short final and having to dodge 100 tall trees to line up on the runway... then you better bring on your A game..... I practice for those days, and it must work, as I am still alive to type this...:rolleyes:....;)
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I fly as low and tight as anyone, even in the hardest Ag turns, I'm climbing before I'm banking, and I'm <30° bank by 40' on the way back in.
 
Dr. O said:
There are reasons why I have given up going to fly-in's
And guys like this Malibu driver are high on the list
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What are you worried about? You don't have to fly with them.
 
Kritchlow said:
If you start a turn to final at 30 feet, 60 degrees bank, and don't hold the nose up......
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Let me clarify my earlier statement better.
I never said that starting a 60 degree bank to final 30' off the ground is safe or smart. Continuing a 30 degree bank turn, well under control to a very short final in something like a Champ is not a big deal, and even a Malibu shouldn't be a problem, if done properly.

This looks like the classic hard turn to final too low and too slow which has killed others in years past. In fact I saw one back in the 70's at Oshkosh, hard turn to final, trying not to drift past the runway, stalled it and it rolled over as it hit, 2 killed on board.
 
30' is 3 stories high... I'm not sure how this is so dangerous. It also depends on what you fly. I fly a Cessna 140 and if nobody else is in the pattern, I sometimes practice losing my engine at different points in the pattern. I sometimes turn base right at the end of the runway and slip it in. I also practice the impossible turn. Again though, depends on the plane. My plane is very docile.

Kritchlow said:
Hate to say it, but if you turn final at 30', I'm not sure you know what you're doing.
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N801BH said:
Well...

If you are carrying enough airspeed, it can be done safely... You will just be landing down the runway a bit further..
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If your doing this you obviously have made an error in judgement somewhere in the pattern and your not using sound judgement, especially at an event like this where bad things often occur. It's why some insurance policy's don't cover fly - ins. Always good to check your policy to be sure.
 
Flew in Monday. Guy on runway ahead of us didn't exit promptly. Controllers noticed this and changed out clearance to land on orange instead of green dot. Go around a are always an option but it sounds like Malibu stalledftom what I heard.
 
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