IFR to fields with no approaches...

cowman

cowman

Final Approach
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Cowman
So this is something that was only really covered as a hypothetical during my instrument training, we never practiced it nor did we talk much about it beyond it being possible.

I'm interested in the practical end of it... I would presume that ATC sends you on a vector or by own navigation (I'm /G) towards the airport and clears you to descend to a certain point then you either see the airport and make a visual landing or have to climb back up and consider whether a second attempt is wise or you should move on to another field with published approaches and/or better weather.

My biggest question is of course about how far I can descend- what will ATC use to determine a minimum altitude to clear me down to and what should I use as a minimum for myself in case they tell me to go down to something inadvisable? I would assume something like the OROCA maybe?

More specifically I'm looking at the M34 airport and thinking through what my go/no go conditions are going to be for this weekend but I'm also just asking in general.
 
Before my home field offered an instrument approach procedure, I would file to my home field, list the nearby TRSA airport as alternate, and when close to home either go visual or request minimum vectoring altitude over town from ATC. They seemed happy to offer that for me.
 
cowman said:
So this is something that was only really covered as a hypothetical during my instrument training, we never practiced it nor did we talk much about it beyond it being possible.

I'm interested in the practical end of it... I would presume that ATC sends you on a vector or by own navigation (I'm /G) towards the airport and clears you to descend to a certain point then you either see the airport and make a visual landing or have to climb back up and consider whether a second attempt is wise or you should move on to another field with published approaches and/or better weather.

My biggest question is of course about how far I can descend- what will ATC use to determine a minimum altitude to clear me down to and what should I use as a minimum for myself in case they tell me to go down to something inadvisable? I would assume something like the OROCA maybe?

More specifically I'm looking at the M34 airport and thinking through what my go/no go conditions are going to be for this weekend but I'm also just asking in general.
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Should have an alternate airport. Having said that, if in radar contact center ATC can descend you to their MIA. You cannot go below their MIA unless in VFR conditions, unless you can assure compliance with the minimum off-route altitude requirements of 91.177.

Having said that, this is done all the time to remote VFR-only airports. You have to plan carefully so as to not get in a bind.
 
ATC will descend you as far as they are allowed for the visual. If you do not see the airport and have at least mvfr vis and ceiling then they will vector you and ask intentions.
 
It occurs to me I could always file nearby Paducah as my alternate, fly the approach there, then If I break out of the clouds and find myself in VFR I can cancel then turn back towards M34 under basic VFR.

If not land at Paducah and wait for the ceiling to lift or find a car.
 
Per 91.169(a)(2) and (b)(1), if the airport doesn't have an instrument approach, then you are required to have an alternate that meets the requirements of 91.169(c).
 
cowman said:
It occurs to me I could always file nearby Paducah as my alternate, fly the approach there, then If I break out of the clouds and find myself in VFR I can cancel then turn back towards M34 under basic VFR.

If not land at Paducah and wait for the ceiling to lift or find a car.
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Before Palo Alto (PAO) got instrument approaches, if the ceiling was below the minimum vectoring altitude (which around here is about 2000 AGL due to the mountains), it was very common to fly an approach to Hayward (HWD), cancel IFR once VFR conditions were reached, and fly across the bay under the ceiling. (I usually used SJC as my filed alternate, because with the ILS the alternate minimums were lower there.)
 
cowman said:
It occurs to me I could always file nearby Paducah as my alternate, fly the approach there, then If I break out of the clouds and find myself in VFR I can cancel then turn back towards M34 under basic VFR.

If not land at Paducah and wait for the ceiling to lift or find a car.
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I have flown an approach into 3G3 when ceilings were right at MVA, broken out, cancelled, and flown the two miles in MVFR to 15G. I always had the option in that case of landing at 3G3 or going missed!
 
I now have 4 airports I have used over the years to get into my homeport of 8NC8. I routinely file KRDU as my alternate and in the past it was my actual target if MVA didn’t get me home because KRDU had the only precision approach. I would shoot the approach there letting ATC know that my intent was to break it off and proceed home. Most of the time I would land at KRDU and go from there.

Since then, KHNZ, KTDF, and (almost) KIGX have gained precision approaches. So now I find it easier to shoot an approach into one of them depending on direction and reported conditions with the intent of proceeding Home. Most of the time I make it home, no scud running allowed. The difference is I try to keep it daylight-only for returns to home plate.



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mwagg737 said:
You could always do a contact approach.

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Not in this case. To do that the airport has to have an instrument approach and weather reporting. In the scenario indicated the airport had no IAP.
 
Walboy said:
I thought a requirement for a contact approach was the airport have a IAP.
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It is. I was thinking of something different.

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cowman said:
So this is something that was only really covered as a hypothetical during my instrument training, we never practiced it nor did we talk much about it beyond it being possible.

I'm interested in the practical end of it... I would presume that ATC sends you on a vector or by own navigation (I'm /G) towards the airport and clears you to descend to a certain point then you either see the airport and make a visual landing or have to climb back up and consider whether a second attempt is wise or you should move on to another field with published approaches and/or better weather.

My biggest question is of course about how far I can descend- what will ATC use to determine a minimum altitude to clear me down to and what should I use as a minimum for myself in case they tell me to go down to something inadvisable? I would assume something like the OROCA maybe?

More specifically I'm looking at the M34 airport and thinking through what my go/no go conditions are going to be for this weekend but I'm also just asking in general.
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Checkout Note 2. OROCA can assist you in complying with 91.177 if you don’t want to or can’t figure out exactly where the rocks/obstructions are and if they are within 4 miles of your route.

4−5−7. ALTITUDE INFORMATION
Issue altitude instructions as follows:
REFERENCE−
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 4−2−1, Clearance Items.
a. Altitude to maintain or cruise. When issuing
cruise in conjunction with an airport clearance limit
and an unpublished route will be used, issue an
appropriate crossing altitude to ensure terrain
clearance until the aircraft reaches a fix, point, or
route where the altitude information is available to
the pilot. When issuing a cruise clearance to an airport
which does not have a published instrument
approach, a cruise clearance without a crossing
restriction may be issued.
PHRASEOLOGY−
MAINTAIN/CRUISE (altitude). MAINTAIN (altitude)
UNTIL (time, fix, waypoint),
or
(number of miles or minutes) MILES/MINUTES PAST (fix,
waypoint).
CROSS (fix, point, waypoint),
or
INTERCEPT (route) AT OR ABOVE (altitude), CRUISE
(altitude).
NOTE−
1. The crossing altitude must assure IFR obstruction
clearance to the point where the aircraft is established on
a segment of a published route or instrument approach
procedure.
2. When an aircraft is issued a cruise clearance to an
airport which does not have a published instrument
approach procedure, it is not possible to satisfy the
requirement for a crossing altitude that will ensure terrain
clearance until the aircraft reaches a fix, point, or route
where altitude information is available to the pilot. Under
those conditions, a cruise clearance without a crossing
restriction authorizes a pilot to determine the minimum
IFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section 91.177 and
descend to it at pilot discretion if it is lower than the altitude
specified in the cruise clearance.
 
Look at the RNAV 5 at 2M0. Inside 30 miles west of IXBER ATC can authorize 2700 MSL. M34 is 14 west of IXBER. So that is probably as low as they will authorize.

But 2700 MSL is ~2300 AGL and in Class E airspace. So even if they get you down to 2700 MSL, you have to be 500 below an overcast and have 3 miles flight visibility to legally cancel IFR. So ~2900 and 3 is probably your real WX minimums.

Just file to a location, cancel and go VFR.
 
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One problem I had with an overzealous controller once was when I did an approach, broke out in vmc, immediately phoned in a cancellation (below radio coverage but not radar apparently), then proceeded to my no-approach destination 4 mi away. O.M.G. the guy wanted to make a name for himself, called 7 federal and state agencies. He did not get the cancellation instantly, saw us somehow (we are told no radar below 8K there and were at 6K) and figured we were headed to our drug pickup. Total douche.
The FAA investigator dropped it. I wanted to have action taken against this guy for making serious unpleasantness but, probably wisely, was advised to forget it.
 
cowman said:
My biggest question is of course about how far I can descend- what will ATC use to determine a minimum altitude to clear me down to and what should I use as a minimum for myself in case they tell me to go down to something inadvisable? I would assume something like the OROCA maybe?
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Memphis Center is the controlling facility for M34 and PAH. The lowest altitude they can give you is the MVA (minimum vectoring altitude) for that area which is 2300.

The best options for those of us going there IFR is to ask for the lowest available altitude (2300 in this case) and see if you can see the airport. If so cancel and land. As mentioned, you can shoot an approach to PAH and get to VFR wx and cancel/head on over or we can land at PAH and wait it out. You could always try the SVFR game but I usually don't.
 
Why not fly somewhere nearby that has a precision approach, use it to get below whatever's in the way, and then scud run back to where you wanted to go in the first place?
 
Palmpilot said:
Before Palo Alto (PAO) got instrument approaches, if the ceiling was below the minimum vectoring altitude (which around here is about 2000 AGL due to the mountains), it was very common to fly an approach to Hayward (HWD), cancel IFR once VFR conditions were reached, and fly across the bay under the ceiling. (I usually used SJC as my filed alternate, because with the ILS the alternate minimums were lower there.)
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This is how I do it. Just recently filed into 06A, broke out inside the FAF, cancelled and went home VFR. The ceiling was just under 2000msl, no biggie. If weather is forecast like this, I file so ewhere with an approach and put "Destination XXXX" in Comments so that no one is surprised; it the forecast is good, I'll file for the no-approach field and put in an alternate with approwches if I think I'll need it.

I've also made this adjustment in destination to a field with an approach in the air as I got close, but was already IFR.
 
As pointed out, if the uncontrolled field is your filed destination you need an alternate (no matter what the weather).
Of course, if you file to an airport nearby that has an instrument approach you only need to deal with the 1-2-3 rule for alternates.

I live on a field with no approach. Fortunately SVH has an ILS (well two ILS approaches) and is 6 miles away. In fact, if I break out at 1000' or so, I can pretty much see my field and then cancel IFR and divert VFR home. Otherwise, I'll land at SVH and have to bum a ride home (or wait it out).

Note that this is kind of an interesting quirk in the alternate rules. If I declare NC26 my destination, I can use SVH as an alternate only 5 miles away. If I declare SVH my destination, I have to use an airport much further away (20 miles or so are the closest others that qualify). Frankly, I always plan CLT as my alternate even if SVH would be my real first choice after home.
 
After talking about this in theory for a long time, I finally got to do it for real last Labor Day weekend heading up to the 6Y9 fly-in.

I don't remember the exact forecast, but I knew I wasn't going to be able to go VFR, and word from the folks there was that the ceilings were OK at 6Y9 but that there was an OVC layer. I filed from KMSN to KLNL (30nm from 6Y9), and shot the RNAV 32 into KLNL. I broke out just a little bit above minimums, but was pretty much flying out the side of the clouds at that point, it was much clearer to the north and west. Since I was in Class G airspace, I only needed a mile and clear of clouds and I had plenty more than that, so I cancelled and took a right, heading toward 6Y9 at first and then intercepting and following the road up to the small town of Kenton, where I knew there were PoAers having beverages. I flew over and rocked my wings at the people who came out of the bar and headed for 6Y9 and some great fun. :)

@cowman, depending on which direction you're coming from, pick a field and you can do the same. I would probably go for 2M0. They have LPV mins there which will get you as low as you'd want to go VFR, and you can follow the road west out of town right to the lakes and the dam, so pilotage should be very easy from there to M34 for a scud run. In addition, the MEFs are lower between M34 and 2M0 than they are over toward Paducah.

FWIW, I went to see the eclipse at 2M0 last summer and they did a fantastic job of taking care of everyone, so I'm sure they'd be a good place to go if you needed to just land there, despite Princeton being a smaller town than Paducah.

Radar Contact said:
Memphis Center is the controlling facility for M34 and PAH. The lowest altitude they can give you is the MVA (minimum vectoring altitude) for that area which is 2300.

The best options for those of us going there IFR is to ask for the lowest available altitude (2300 in this case) and see if you can see the airport. If so cancel and land. As mentioned, you can shoot an approach to PAH and get to VFR wx and cancel/head on over or we can land at PAH and wait it out. You could always try the SVFR game but I usually don't.
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Remember that you need to not only be able to see the airport, you need to have VFR minimums to cancel IFR. In this case, at 2300 you're in Class E airspace, so need 500 feet above you and 3 miles to cancel. So, 2800 MSL layer (2500 AGL) and 3 miles.
 
It would also be beneficial to read AIM 5-4-23, which is the section on visual approaches. The weather at the airport has to be at least 1000 and 3, but you don't have to maintain VFR cloud clearance, just have the airport in sight and remain clear of clouds. ATC can authorize a visual approach to an airport that has no weather reporting "provided there is a reasonable assurance that weather at the airport is a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater (e.g., area weather reports, PIREPs, etc.)."
 
You can be legal VFR with other than 1000 and 3. 1000 means squat in uncontrolled airspace. Mile and clear of clouds is all you need. All I need is to breakout below 700'
 
I don’t understand all the answers suggesting filing to an approach, canceling and then scud running.

It makes far more sense to me to file to the actual destination, if that doesn’t work out, then divert to the alternate, then either land or cancel and go vfr if it’s not far. If it’s far, scud running seems stupid in either case.
 
Salty said:
I don’t understand all the answers suggesting filing to an approach, canceling and then scud running.

It makes far more sense to me to file to the actual destination, if that doesn’t work out, then divert to the alternate, then either land or cancel and go vfr if it’s not far. If it’s far, scud running seems stupid in either case.
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It was SOP at my field (before my field got an approach procedure) to fly approach at the nearby TRSA then break it off and scud run. Of course, the nearby TRSA was only 10 miles away or so. One factor may be that there are mountains in the area, minimum vectoring is 4300 or so if I recall, which means that often one would not break out at minimum vectoring.
 
flyingron said:
You can be legal VFR with other than 1000 and 3. 1000 means squat in uncontrolled airspace. Mile and clear of clouds is all you need. All I need is to breakout below 700'
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True in class G, but as mentioned in post #16, the lowest ATC can vector in the M34 area is 2300 feet, which would be a little less than 2000 AGL at the airport. If the ceiling was 2100 AGL for example, canceling IFR would not be legal because he would still be in class E, which requires 500 feet below the clouds for VFR. A visual approach would get around that provided he had the airport in sight from the altitude he had been vectored to, because a 2100 AGL ceiling is well above the 1000-foot minimum for a visual approach.

If the bottom of the clouds is 2800 MSL or higher, then he can cancel IFR at the 2300-foot minimum vectoring altitude if he has at least three miles of visibility.
 
If the area ceilings would require “scud running” I’m not going but I don’t think it will come to that. Last forecast I saw for Paducah was saying overcast 4000 as of 11am, if that’s what actually happens I can probably do it any darn way I feel like and be good to go.

Another solution came to mind this afternoon though when I remembered M34 has no fuel. Technically I have enough range to fly there, not refuel, and make it home but I don’t like cutting it that close so what I think I’ll do is go ahead and file and fly to one of the nearby fields with an approach and fuel. Land, top off, make the short trip to M34, and not have to worry about gas for the trip home.
 
Sounds like a good plan.
 
flyingron said:
You can be legal VFR with other than 1000 and 3. 1000 means squat in uncontrolled airspace. Mile and clear of clouds is all you need. All I need is to breakout below 700'
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You can breakout higher. You just can't cancel until below 700
 
Palmpilot said:
It would also be beneficial to read AIM 5-4-23, which is the section on visual approaches. The weather at the airport has to be at least 1000 and 3, but you don't have to maintain VFR cloud clearance, just have the airport in sight and remain clear of clouds. ATC can authorize a visual approach to an airport that has no weather reporting "provided there is a reasonable assurance that weather at the airport is a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater (e.g., area weather reports, PIREPs, etc.)."
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Good point. For some reason I had thought you couldn't do a visual approach to an airport with no IAPs, but that's only true of a contact approach according to the current AIM. So, if one were to see the airport at the MVA and have 1000 and 3 at the airport but not have VFR cloud clearance requirements at the point they are in the flight - For example, at the 2300 MSL MVA with clouds at 2400 - They could request and execute a visual approach to M34, and then cancel IFR as soon as they have VFR requirements met (ie, below 1900 MSL if the clouds are at 2400 MSL).

flyingron said:
You can be legal VFR with other than 1000 and 3. 1000 means squat in uncontrolled airspace. Mile and clear of clouds is all you need. All I need is to breakout below 700'
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You need 1000 (AGL) and 3 for a visual approach in the scenario above. Alternatively, shoot an approach to a different airport and cancel when you hit the G-space, assuming you have a mile and clear.

Salty said:
I don’t understand all the answers suggesting filing to an approach, canceling and then scud running.

It makes far more sense to me to file to the actual destination, if that doesn’t work out, then divert to the alternate, then either land or cancel and go vfr if it’s not far. If it’s far, scud running seems stupid in either case.
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In the case I did it, I knew two things: One, I was not getting below the layer without shooting the approach. ZMP radar doesn't really go below about 8,000 feet in that area. And two, the destination was 30nm farther away than the airport with the approach, so even if radar was reasonably low - Like, say, 3,000 feet - if I wasn't below the clouds there I'd have needed to backtrack and shoot the approach anyway. I figured, if I'm going to need to shoot the approach, might as well do it. If I'm not going to need to shoot the approach, chances are I'll know that before I start the approach and I can simply cancel at that point.
 
Palmpilot said:
The chart I looked at shows the floor of class E at 1200 AGL over M34.

https://skyvector.com/?ll=37.00511164045384,-88.35536956218426&chart=301&zoom=2&fpl=undefined

The problem is, how do you get vectored that low when the minimum vectoring altitude is almost 2000 AGL.
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That wasn’t about being vectored. It was about @flyingron ’s post #19 where he was doing an Approach and then cancelling when breaking out underneath

EDIT: note to self, don’t reply right away. Read a few more posts to see if it’s already been answered
 
Salty said:
I don’t understand all the answers suggesting filing to an approach, canceling and then scud running.

It makes far more sense to me to file to the actual destination, if that doesn’t work out, then divert to the alternate, then either land or cancel and go vfr if it’s not far. If it’s far, scud running seems stupid in either case.
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Agreed that scud running is generally stupid, unless you're very familiar with the area and any obstacles. But it seems to me that if you're reasonably sure that you will not be able to get in at your destination, you might as well file to the "alternate", since ATC will be able to better work you in there with plenty of advance warning, better than with a last minute diversion. (Of course, it's also a good idea to let them know of your true intentions so that you don't accidentally create a conflict after canceling.)
 
One other thing to add to all this. Finding a nearby airport with a ‘Precision Approach’ keeps coming up. If you need to get lower than the MDA of a ‘non’ precision approach to get underneath and cancel then you may want to give it some second thoughts. Also, most airports with ‘precision’ approach’s have Surface Areas. If the ceiling is less than 1000 you can’t just cancel and mosey on over to your destination beneath that ceiling.
 
FORANE said:
It was SOP at my field (before my field got an approach procedure) to fly approach at the nearby TRSA then break it off and scud run. Of course, the nearby TRSA was only 10 miles away or so. One factor may be that there are mountains in the area, minimum vectoring is 4300 or so if I recall, which means that often one would not break out at minimum vectoring.
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And I can think of one or two fields around here where, even though an IAP exists, the MDA is so high that you might be better off filing to a nearby Class D with an ILS or LPV, canceling, and proceeding VFR to the destination field. Even more so for fields without an IAP, since, as in your case, MIAs are generally quite high around here, in most areas well above 4000 or even 5000.
 
luvflyin said:
One other thing to add to all this. Finding a nearby airport with a ‘Precision Approach’ keeps coming up. If you need to get lower than the MDA of a ‘non’ precision approach to get underneath and cancel then you may want to give it some second thoughts. Also, most airports with ‘precision’ approach’s have Surface Areas. If the ceiling is less than 1000 you can’t just cancel and mosey on over to your destination beneath that ceiling.
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In practical terms you mean Class E Surface Area airports have at least one ILS. But, there are many airports now with LPV to 200-300 DAs that don't have a Class E Surface Area. FWIW.
 
azure said:
And I can think of one or two fields around here where, even though an IAP exists, the MDA is so high that you might be better off filing to a nearby Class D with an ILS or LPV, canceling, and proceeding VFR to the destination field. Even more so for fields without an IAP, since, as in your case, MIAs are generally quite high around here, in most areas well above 4000 or even 5000.
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Any IFR airport where the approach (or approaches) have high MDAs means there is a significant obstacle issue at the airport. No problem for someone who is very familiar with the area.
 
azure said:
Agreed that scud running is generally stupid, unless you're very familiar with the area and any obstacles. But it seems to me that if you're reasonably sure that you will not be able to get in at your destination, you might as well file to the "alternate", since ATC will be able to better work you in there with plenty of advance warning, better than with a last minute diversion. (Of course, it's also a good idea to let them know of your true intentions so that you don't accidentally create a conflict after canceling.)
Click to expand...

Yeah. I'd say it's such "a good idea to let them know of your true intentions so that you don't accidentally create a conflict after canceling," that you should pretend it is mandatory.
 
Yeah
aterpster said:
Any IFR airport where the approach (or approaches) have high MDAs means there is a significant obstacle issue at the airport. No problem for someone who is very familiar with the area.
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Yup. I've heard rumors about local folk who have 'roll your own' Approaches.
 
azure said:
Agreed that scud running is generally stupid, unless you're very familiar with the area and any obstacles. But it seems to me that if you're reasonably sure that you will not be able to get in at your destination, you might as well file to the "alternate", since ATC will be able to better work you in there with plenty of advance warning, better than with a last minute diversion. (Of course, it's also a good idea to let them know of your true intentions so that you don't accidentally create a conflict after canceling.)
Click to expand...

I’ve found that while filing an alternate is both mandatory and a good preflight planning exercise, once in the air it means little. What I’ve actually thought about before and during the flight is going to drive the decision process. And to the extent that ATC is helpful in decision making based on current conditions (and at times I’ve found them extremely helpful) the only useless bit of information on the table is my filed alternate.

So I routinely file KRDU as my alternate simply because when flying direct to the obscure 8NC8, it seems to give faraway controllers some idea of where I’m headed, that is, my home port is next to KRDU. My actual alternate planning is a separate exercise and is subject to update as forecasts become actual.


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Bill Watson said:
I now have 4 airports I have used over the years to get into my homeport of 8NC8. I routinely file KRDU as my alternate and in the past it was my actual target if MVA didn’t get me home because KRDU had the only precision approach. I would shoot the approach there letting ATC know that my intent was to break it off and proceed home. Most of the time I would land at KRDU and go from there.

Since then, KHNZ, KTDF, and (almost) KIGX have gained precision approaches. So now I find it easier to shoot an approach into one of them depending on direction and reported conditions with the intent of proceeding Home. Most of the time I make it home, no scud running allowed. The difference is I try to keep it daylight-only for returns to home plate.



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So this happened yesterday.
fbe3904114d1c411ef14b2ea7a9d5777.jpg


I filed KAGC KLYH KDAN KTDF 8NC8 with KRDU the alternate. The intent was do the last approach at KTDF and VFR underneath Home. Per my flight plan comments my intent was to fly missed approaches at 3 ‘ports and land at 8NC8. Good shot at some approaches in actual for proficiency and currency.

The early morning Wx agreed with shooting a nice low RNAV into KLYH. But KDAN had a small cell cluster growing nearby and KTDF was getting worse. So I requested RNAV 24 at KHNZ.

At this point the controller at KRDU had is hands full but was totally in control. He gave me a delaying vector and a ‘standby’ while he shaked and baked the stack. At one point I got a somewhat non-standard “descend 4,000, once there, clear direct VEKUC and the RNAV 24.” I descended then turned for VEKUC. I was handflying the whole way but when I hit execute on the electronics, it led me thru a procedure turn which benefited from a descending turn to 3k before intercepting the GS. Perfect slam dunk but to me a somewhat unusual clearance.... but it immediately got me going without more chatter.

I flew the procedure into my favorite ‘get home’ Airport. Why a favorite? My original CFII had demonstrated how one could ‘scud run’ home following I-85 from there. Even though his demo scared me a bit, since then I’ve flown between those 2 Airports more than 60 times when I was finishing my build. The interstate run had a cell sitting over it but there were 1,200’ ceilings just to the east and I had a very pleasant trip home over territory I had seen a lot of before.

That was a very engaging and satisfying flight. The most important decision was not trying that route the previous evening when conditions were worse. It was a nice hotel room.


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