IFR release quandary - uncontrolled field

RussR

RussR

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Russ
Yesterday I had an interesting situation happen. We resolved it easily, but it showed an unusual situation, so I thought I'd tell it.

Our field is uncontrolled. We have a GCO on the field to call Clearance Delivery. Yesterday was IMC, about 900 foot ceilings. I filed my flight plan, taxied to the end of the runway, did my runup, and called CD on the GCO for my clearance and release. There is no runup area on this end of the runway, but this has never been a problem before, not much flying here when it's IMC.

So I get ahold of CD on the GCO, he reads me my clearance, I read it back and tell him I'll be ready in one minute. He tells me to hold for release, because there is another aircraft already released off the airport that hasn't called in yet after takeoff. Really, who? I look back down the taxiway, and stopped behind me is the only other aircraft operating on the field. So I ask Clearance:

Me: Is that other aircraft a Grumman Cougar? (Kind of a rare aircraft, and it's also based at my airport.)
CD: It says here a GA-7, and his tailnumber is Nxxxx.
Me: Yep, that's him, he's behind me. But there's no way for him to get around, I'm blocking his way.
CD: Um, okay, let me see if I can work anything out.

He puts me on hold for a minute, so I call up the Grumman and explain the situation to him - he had a void time about 3 minutes from now. He must have called CD and received his release over the cell phone back at the ramp, or maybe inside the FBO. But since I did it on the GCO, I got to the runway first.

CD comes back on: We can't do anything until either his void time expires or he departs, even though we understand he can't get out around you. If you just want to wait a few minutes and call back again...
Me: We'll work it out. I'll call you back.

I didn't really want to cause the other guy more delay, so I just decided I'd taxi down the runway to the next taxiway, come back around and be behind him, then he could depart. So I did, he departed, thanked me, and I called CD back, everything worked out and I got my release.

I guess nothing went "wrong" exactly, it was just bad timing and bad coincidence. Maybe I shouldn't have waited until after my runup to get my clearance, but that has seemed the most efficient way in the past, to get the clearance and release on the same GCO call. And typically, when it's IMC, I'm the only airplane moving on the ramp. And getting the clearance earlier wouldn't necessarily have made a difference, I still might have beat him to the runway.

Opinions?
 
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It happens. Neither of you did anything wrong.
 
Nah, neither one of you did anything wrong. You just encountered a rare case where you have someone who got a clearance before you at an uncontrolled airport and then a setup that doesn't allow someone to taxi around.

When it comes to the GCOs, some either don't understand how to use it or they simply prefer the cellphone method. I prefer the GCO but one day I just couldn't get a hold of them and went with the cell. Either way works well though.
 
900'? Uncontrolled? In the Midwest? Pick it up in the air.
 
A complete non-issue. Well handled by all.

The existence of the GCO is incidental. Could have happened via cell phone.

I was thinking about the "midwest, 900', get it in the air" which makes sense as another alternative.

Then I was thinking, "here's a situation where one pilot didn't know another was behind him for takeoff on a 900' day because he didn't expect anyone else. It might be best to get a clearance on the ground in order to avoid any incoming traffic. Of course, I would announce my takeoff and any incoming would announce there approach, right? Or maybe not since it is a 900' day and 'nobody' operates in and out of here with weather like that".

I was thinking that because I operate out of a private grass strip where anyone operating on a <1000' day would be a surprise for me. Just thinking.
 
If Russ had telephoned for his clearance after the Cougar pilot did, the "operator" providing the clearance have known someone was ahead of Russ and told him? (btw; not picking nits, just asking a question about how the system functions).
 
AggieMike88 said:
If Russ had telephoned for his clearance after the Cougar pilot did, the "operator" providing the clearance have known someone was ahead of Russ and told him? (btw; not picking nits, just asking a question about how the system functions).
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Really, for the most part, FIFO.
 
900 over the field might be 700 or even 600 a mile or two away. What if someone pops out of the clouds intending to CTL just as you're getting ready to pick up after departing VFR? I think I'd have departed IFR too.

It sounds like the GCO had nothing to do with it really, just that one of you called from the ramp the other from the runup pad.
 
azure said:
900 over the field might be 700 or even 600 a mile or two away. What if someone pops out of the clouds intending to CTL just as you're getting ready to pick up after departing VFR? I think I'd have departed IFR too.
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That was my thought, too. Maybe it's different in the flat lands, but I'd never even consider launching if it was 900' broken or overcast unless I was damn sure I'd get cleared as filed. I'm not going to be copying a clearance and working it out on my chart/iPad while trying to stay clear-of-clouds, clear-of-traffic, and clear-of-antennas at 700' AGL or so.

Plus, you know, flying in the SFRA kind of makes it a moot point.
 
azure said:
900 over the field might be 700 or even 600 a mile or two away. What if someone pops out of the clouds intending to CTL just as you're getting ready to pick up after departing VFR? I think I'd have departed IFR too.

It sounds like the GCO had nothing to do with it really, just that one of you called from the ramp the other from the runup pad.
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600 or 700 is still VFR in class G.
What if someone pops out of the clouds because they don't file?
What if we are invaded by aliens who generate clouds to hide their spaceships?
 
Re: the ceiling, looking back on the METARS it was more like 600-700 OVC. It was 900 OVC when I got back an hour later, that's why the number stuck in my head. Regardless, taking the 2 minutes to taxi back around was by far the easiest and safest solution. I was in no hurry.

AggieMike88 said:
If Russ had telephoned for his clearance after the Cougar pilot did, the "operator" providing the clearance have known someone was ahead of Russ and told him? (btw; not picking nits, just asking a question about how the system functions).
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Good question. But you can get your clearance almost whenever you want, a long time before takeoff, so there'd be no compelling reason for the controller to tell me of any other traffic that was operating there. No expectation of that either. Plus, once Clearance Delivery issues the clearance, he'd undoubtedly pass the "strip" off to the Approach controller, and have no further need or use or knowledge about whether the first guy had already departed or not. Until, that is, he goes to issue me the IFR release, when he had to coordinate with the approach controller. Which is exactly what happened.

Re: using the GCO, yes, I suppose others are right, it really had nothing to do with it. Consider it a "distractor" like in high school algebra word problems.

Actually, though, it might have a little to do with it - had I chosen to call on the cell phone, I probably would have done it from the ramp, just in case there was a connection problem, or whatever. But with the GCO, the sign at the end of the runway has the GCO freq and instructions on it, so it seems a natural place to use it.
 
EdFred said:
900'? Uncontrolled? In the Midwest? Pick it up in the air.
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Depending on which airport & where he's headed (noting that he's in Dayton), that may not be such a good idea. Plenty of towers around to avoid before you can pick up the clearance.
 
wsuffa said:
Depending on which airport & where he's headed (noting that he's in Dayton), that may not be such a good idea. Plenty of towers around to avoid before you can pick up the clearance.
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If you can't see the towers, you probably don't have VFR visibility requirements, in which case I am not picking it up in the air. I find it easier to see the towers against an overcast than I do blue sky.
 
EdFred said:
If you can't see the towers, you probably don't have VFR visibility requirements, in which case I am not picking it up in the air. I find it easier to see the towers against an overcast than I do blue sky.
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Maybe or maybe not. I find that an unpainted tower with low intensity strobes can sometimes get lost during daytime against the clouds. A painted tower usually stands out better against clouds.

There are some airports near Dayton that I'd consider departing VFR under a 900' ceiling if I knew that I was sure to get the clearance/release (and if I had a gold-plated "plan B"). Others I wouldn't based on what I know of the area and obstructions.

YMMV.
 
EdFred said:
600 or 700 is still VFR in class G.
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Legal is not necessarily safe.
What if someone pops out of the clouds because they don't file?
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I can't factor lunatics into my plans, but I CAN factor in people who are LEGALLY popping out a mile or two from an airport with a SIAP. They have every right to be there and in fact I'd expect them to be there.
What if we are invaded by aliens who generate clouds to hide their spaceships?
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Oh give me a break. :mad2:
 
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EdFred said:
600 or 700 is still VFR in class G.
What if someone pops out of the clouds because they don't file?
What if we are invaded by aliens who generate clouds to hide their spaceships?
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Don't get into this sort of thinking the way George Murphy did, or the way this BE400 crew did. If someone else has an IFR release, or you otherwise can't get your release on the ground, don't try launching into marginal conditions to try to pick one up airborne -- you could end up either grounded or dead.
 
If I can't fly under a 900' overcast and 5 plus visibility without crashing, I probably shouldn't be allowed to possess a pilot certificate. I never said fly into clouds, and the Midwest is conveniently lacking any mountains.
 
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Taxiing out of the guys way (by the runway if necessary) is the first thing I would have done if heard there was a released guy that I'm blocking. Why would you do otherwise?
 
If ATC released one aircraft at an uncontrolled field, you won't get a clearance even if airborne VFR until you are well clear of the airport and/or ATC has radar ID'd both you and the other traffic AND radar separation can be assured. Not a chance I'd be willing to take in marginal conditions.

To the OP, good job on picking the correct action. In order for ATC to issue you a release out of sequence, the other aircraft would have to call ATC on GCO/cell to inform of intentions. Not gonna happen if he phoned the clearance in...that's sound ADM in an unusual situation!
 
EdFred said:
If I can't fly under a 900' overcast and 5 plus visibility without crashing, I probably shouldn't be allowed to possess a pilot certificate. I never said fly into clouds, and the Midwest is conveniently lacking any mountains.
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You've missed the point completely.
 
MarkZ said:
If ATC released one aircraft at an uncontrolled field, you won't get a clearance even if airborne VFR until you are well clear of the airport and/or ATC has radar ID'd both you and the other traffic AND radar separation can be assured. Not a chance I'd be willing to take in marginal conditions.
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You didn't miss the point.
 
One of you possesses the air.
The other possesses the runway.

Good work, Russ.
 
Ron Levy said:
You've missed the point completely.
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The point where you routinely post incidents that arent related so you can solidify yourself as some self appointed expert?

No that point was made loud and clear.

If you're going to link to incidents at least make sure they are relevant.
 
EdFred said:
If I can't fly under a 900' overcast and 5 plus visibility without crashing, I probably shouldn't be allowed to possess a pilot certificate. I never said fly into clouds, and the Midwest is conveniently lacking any mountains.
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OTOH, I understand some 135 operators avoid circle to land ops in the same type of weather. And, of course, since you're under VFR at this point, depending on what airspace the non-towered airport is in, it might even be illegal or you'd have to be even lower.
 
EdFred said:
If I can't fly under a 900' overcast and 5 plus visibility without crashing, I probably shouldn't be allowed to possess a pilot certificate. I never said fly into clouds, and the Midwest is conveniently lacking any mountains.
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depends on where you are and where you're going. From my home in central IL (in chicago center airspace) if I'm going S or SW and the ground hold is long I'll take off under a marginal overcast with confidence that I have 2 friendly ATC's to get a clearance from, Peoria approach and beyond them Kansas City center. Plus I know the terrain and there is no airspace concerns in that direction. But if I'm going N or E I'll wait on the ground for my clearance no matter how long it takes because I might not get a clearance in the air from Chicago and there is not far to get into airspace problems.
 
bbchien said:
One of you possesses the air.
The other possesses the runway.

Good work, Russ.
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Actually, one possessed the air.
The other was a ground obstruction.
 
JHW said:
depends on where you are and where you're going. From my home in central IL (in chicago center airspace) if I'm going S or SW and the ground hold is long I'll take off under a marginal overcast with confidence that I have 2 friendly ATC's to get a clearance from, Peoria approach and beyond them Kansas City center. Plus I know the terrain and there is no airspace concerns in that direction. But if I'm going N or E I'll wait on the ground for my clearance no matter how long it takes because I might not get a clearance in the air from Chicago and there is not far to get into airspace problems.
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Oh, absolutely. At my home 'drome, they are never busy enough to worry about not picking up a clearance. A couple times they must have had nothing going on and were just waiting on me. I didn't even have to say what I was requesting.

"Grand Rapids Approach, Comanche 727DS"
"727DS, cleared to XYZ as filed..."
:eek:

Usually, I have to at least say I'm picking up my clearance.
 
EdFred said:
The point where you routinely post incidents that arent related so you can solidify yourself as some self appointed expert?

No that point was made loud and clear.

If you're going to link to incidents at least make sure they are relevant.
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Missed again.
 
I agree with most everyone here that departing with 900 OVC is not a good idea and I personally wouldn't do it. Now the links that Ron posted, well those are extremes. Departing VFR with 200 & 1/4. That's insane. The Beech 400, yeah that's mountainous (I fly over that area all the time) and the Captain in question had a history of poor decision making.

I can tell you from an approach controller point of view it's easier to issue the clearance in the air. On the ground you're tying up that airport for IFR arrivals and departures. If the weather is nice and you're airborne, just check in with your callsign. The controller looks at their strip board and the controller will say something like "N12345 sqwk 5555 for your IFR clearance." Radar contact, no traffic around, clear him as filed, done. Just try and make sure you depart no earlier than 30 mins prior to ETD that way your strip will be on the board.

I do agree with Ron that in MVFR it could be a problem and you might have to wait awhile in a heavy traffic area. Better have a plan to fly for 10-20 miles while awaiting your clearance. When you do get that clearance and it's 900 OVC, be prepared to maintain your own terrain / obstruction clearance while IMC in the climb to the MIA. So basically, know your area. Also, I have had a few cases where a guy's FP wasn't in the system. This can pose a problem based on traffic load. If that's the case the controller will either not deal with you and have you contact FSS and air file, or if they're nice they'll just have you rattle off all your FP info over the radio and type your stuff in himself.
 
Velocity173 said:
I can tell you from an approach controller point of view it's easier to issue the clearance in the air. On the ground you're tying up that airport for IFR arrivals and departures.
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That makes a lot of sense, yet Detroit Approach is on record saying that they prefer pilots call for their clearance on the ground at VLL even when the weather is good VFR. I've never had any trouble picking up a clearance in the air, they don't seem to be annoyed with me for doing that. Occasionally I have to wait because they're busy, but that's fine with me. Picking up on the ground, it is typical to be restricted to a 3-minute departure window and have to wait 5-10 minutes for it. No thanks.

Unless conditions are as in the OP... then AFAIC the inconvenience is well worth it.
 
What he said. If somebody else has a valid release, he "owns" the airspace around the airport. You're making a big assumption that you'll be issued a clearance droning around, fully legally, in marginal conditions.


MarkZ said:
If ATC released one aircraft at an uncontrolled field, you won't get a clearance even if airborne VFR until you are well clear of the airport and/or ATC has radar ID'd both you and the other traffic AND radar separation can be assured. Not a chance I'd be willing to take in marginal conditions.

To the OP, good job on picking the correct action. In order for ATC to issue you a release out of sequence, the other aircraft would have to call ATC on GCO/cell to inform of intentions. Not gonna happen if he phoned the clearance in...that's sound ADM in an unusual situation!
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EdFred said:
900'? Uncontrolled? In the Midwest? Pick it up in the air.
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That could be a big mistake. In this case it's very likely the OP would not have been able to get a clearance until ATC could ensure adequate separation from the Cougar. If the Cougar happened to be headed in the same general direction that could mean the OP would have had to scud run until the Cougar was at least 1000 ft above the MVA in the area. And if the Cougar had a comm failure (unlikely, yes but that could be something as simple as the wrong frequency written down when taking the clearance) it could be a long time before ATC would issue a clearance.

Also depending on the area, it's quite likely that the OP wouldn't be able to reach ATC on the radio while maintaining the required cloud clearances.
 
gismo said:
That could be a big mistake. In this case it's very likely the OP would not have been able to get a clearance until ATC could ensure adequate separation from the Cougar. If the Cougar happened to be headed in the same general direction that could mean the OP would have had to scud run until the Cougar was at least 1000 ft above the MVA in the area. And if the Cougar had a comm failure (unlikely, yes but that could be something as simple as the wrong frequency written down when taking the clearance) it could be a long time before ATC would issue a clearance.

Also depending on the area, it's quite likely that the OP wouldn't be able to reach ATC on the radio while maintaining the required cloud clearances.
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Viz, what happened in the enforcement case and the accident, the links to which I posted above. But Ed said earlier those issues are irrelevant, since he's perfectly fine flying around VFR under a 900-foot ceiling in the Midwest.
 
gismo said:
That could be a big mistake. In this case it's very likely the OP would not have been able to get a clearance until ATC could ensure adequate separation from the Cougar. If the Cougar happened to be headed in the same general direction that could mean the OP would have had to scud run until the Cougar was at least 1000 ft above the MVA in the area. And if the Cougar had a comm failure (unlikely, yes but that could be something as simple as the wrong frequency written down when taking the clearance) it could be a long time before ATC would issue a clearance.

Also depending on the area, it's quite likely that the OP wouldn't be able to reach ATC on the radio while maintaining the required cloud clearances.
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The additional issue in the DAY area would be who has the clearance. On the south side of town (MGY), you run into Cincinnati TRACON airspace fairly quickly to the south, but east keeps you in Dayton/Columbus TRACON airspace. Less of an issue at Springfield. From Moraine, there is a ridge with towers not too far north, and a lone tower even closer.

And then there's the traffic to Wright-Patt.

Hence my comment about "it depends on the airport and the circumstances".
 
This has been a great discussion, that I didn't anticipate when I first posted. I'm actually glad I stated the weather incorrectly, it has been enlightening. Given that the ceiling was actually 600-700 OVC, I think there's no question about staying on the ground and waiting for the release.

But with 900 OVC, as some have suggested to depart VFR, I'm mentally trying to work my way through the legalities if I even wanted to do this. Okay, like many uncontrolled airports, Class G from surface to 700. So, if I stay at 700 or below, I just have to be "clear of clouds" - day VFR in G. But if I got to 800, I'm in Class E, and then have to be 500 feet below them, so I can't do that, got to stay below 700.

Of course, I also need to comply with minimum altitude requirements, and at 700 AGL it might be tough to stay 500 feet from persons or structures, let alone impossible if it's a "congested" area (which has been interpreted pretty broadly) to stay 1000 feet above. Now, 91.119 says the minimum altitudes apply "except when necessary for takeoff and landing", but I would think that once I transition to level flight (at 700 AGL), I would no longer meet that exemption, since I've clearly completed my takeoff at that time.

Visibility was excellent under the OVC, so I wouldn't have been worried about hitting anything, but for those who advocate taking off VFR, how would you remain legal?

If it matters for further discussion, this was at I19, Greene County.
 
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I've done a 500'-600' scud run from 35D to 9D9. Yep, there's some big towers between the two. But you head straight to the center of Gun Lake, and you're good. I've also scud run less than 1000' from 9D9 west to Lake Michigan. I know where the towers are, and once past Gun Lake, there's just a handful of towers. Those top out around 500' AGL. Once over Lake Michigan, I'm not hitting anything. 1400' MSL has me comply with 91.119 and other than the Gun Lake towers I'm good pretty much anywhere localish.
 
RussR said:
Of course, I also need to comply with minimum altitude requirements, and at 700 AGL it might be tough to stay 500 feet from persons or structures, let alone impossible if it's a "congested" area (which has been interpreted pretty broadly) to stay 1000 feet above. Now, 91.119 says the minimum altitudes apply "except when necessary for takeoff and landing", but I would think that once I transition to level flight (at 700 AGL), I would no longer meet that exemption, since I've clearly completed my takeoff at that time.
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Good point, and that's a big difference between the kind of airspace Ed flies in and the kind around where I'm based. VLL is definitely a "congested area" so if the flight rules ball is red or magenta, IFR is really the only legal way to depart unless you're 100% sure of getting a clearance pronto (which, I can't see how you could be). But in some areas it's doable, and I'd still argue, for reasons many people have cited, that it's probably still not the safest thing to do even if it's legal.

If it matters for further discussion, this was at I19, Greene County.
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Hard to tell from the sectional (might depend on which direction you're going?), and I've never flown in there so I'll pass on that one.
 
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