IFR Departure, “turn heading XYZ”

Arob16

Arob16

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jun 30, 2015
Messages
157
Location
Fort Worth TX
Display Name
Display name:
Arob16
Hey gang - I recently had a controller jump on me for turning too early on an IFR takeoff, and I’m trying to research the right answer. Clearance was, “ On departure, turn heading 330, radar vectors to XYZ.” WX was clear VMC. After reaching a stabilized climb and and when I felt safe, I initiated my turn.

I know about the diverse departure criteria and the 35’ above DER/400’ AGL criteria that define DPs. But I’m not certain if the context of those definitions translate to regulation (I.e. maybe I should have waited till 400’ to turn?)

Anyway, wanted to see what everyone thought!
 
If you have visual clearance with the obstacles, you can turn as soon as the wheels leave the ground. If you are about to enter the soup, you'd better continue straight out until you cross the departure end of the runway AND are at least 400' above the departure end elevation.
 
Ok I’ll say it.....400’?
 
Arob16 said:
Hey gang - I recently had a controller jump on me for turning too early on an IFR takeoff, and I’m trying to research the right answer. Clearance was, “ On departure, turn heading 330, radar vectors to XYZ.” WX was clear VMC. After reaching a stabilized climb and and when I felt safe, I initiated my turn.

I know about the diverse departure criteria and the 35’ above DER/400’ AGL criteria that define DPs. But I’m not certain if the context of those definitions translate to regulation (I.e. maybe I should have waited till 400’ to turn?)

Anyway, wanted to see what everyone thought!
Click to expand...

Just curious, but what exactly did they say? If they didn’t include any kind of altitude guidance in the clearance why would they care when you turned? The other reason I ask is I wonder if it was not the altitude so much as the early turn dorked up the vector somehow.
 
If your filed IFR you go to the altitude assigned unless the controller gives you a change.
 
frfly172 said:
If your filed IFR you go to the altitude assigned unless the controller gives you a change.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but you don’t wait to reach that altitude before making any turns on course or to a directed heading unless you’ve been given some kind of amplified instructions like “upon entering controlled airspace fly heading XYZ”.
 
Need more information....what did they exactly say to you? Unless you overflew another aircraft on the parallel taxiway or something, I’m not sure why the controller would really care.
 
A week ago I got a heading to fly and a”full length” instruction by tower.
I’d never heard it before on takeoff; he was saying “don’t be starting your turn til past the end of the runway”.
Maybe it’s in the PCG and I missed it.
 
Arob16 said:
Hey gang - I recently had a controller jump on me for turning too early on an IFR takeoff, and I’m trying to research the right answer. Clearance was, “ On departure, turn heading 330, radar vectors to XYZ.” WX was clear VMC. After reaching a stabilized climb and and when I felt safe, I initiated my turn.

I know about the diverse departure criteria and the 35’ above DER/400’ AGL criteria that define DPs. But I’m not certain if the context of those definitions translate to regulation (I.e. maybe I should have waited till 400’ to turn?)

Anyway, wanted to see what everyone thought!
Click to expand...

How long was the Runway. Did you turn before the Departure End? That’s a no-no. AIM 5-2-9 e. 1.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
A week ago I got a heading to fly and a”full length” instruction by tower.
I’d never heard it before on takeoff; he was saying “don’t be starting your turn til past the end of the runway”.
Maybe it’s in the PCG and I missed it.
Click to expand...

Don’t know about the PCG, but it is in the AIM. See above.
 
Policy: Not less than 400 afe and not before the end of the runway.

Fly some of those turning departures in a Garmin trainer. If you reach 400 feet before the end of the runway the turn won't commence until the end of the runway.
 
luvflyin said:
Don’t know about the PCG, but it is in the AIM. See above.
Click to expand...

I searched 5.2.9 for “length” - as in the ‘full length’ instruction on t-o, zero hits- can you point out please?
Wouldn’t really matter, Im never 400’ before the end of the rwy anyway.
 
Way back before the Earth cooled and I was flying lots of instruments in the SF Bay Area, it was typical for the IFR clearance to begin with "Cleared to KXXX via after takeoff fly heading XXX..."

[EDITED] I suppose nowadays there is a DP for just about every IFR airport...

After a few hours of sleep, I realized I was responding to a different thread halfway through typing this...
 
Last edited:
400' and end of the runway, except for wake turbulence avoidance with tower approval. SNA frequently givea an early turn to avoid wake for a light aircraft departing behind an airlines of 20R.

IK04 said:
Way back before the Earth cooled and I was flying lots of instruments in the SF Bay Area, it was typical for the IFR clearance to begin with "Cleared to KXXX via after takeoff fly heading XXX..."

I suppose nowadays there is a DP for just about every airport with surface based controlled airspace...
Click to expand...

I rarely get SIDs, nearly always headings and radar vectors. Some airports always give SIDs, but they are quite simple (SNA, VNY).
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I searched 5.2.9 for “length” - as in the ‘full length’ instruction on t-o, zero hits- can you point out please?
Wouldn’t really matter, Im never 400’ before the end of the rwy anyway.
Click to expand...


1. Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle
clearance for all departures, including diverse, is
based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the
runway at least 35 feet above the departure end of
runway elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the
departure end of runway elevation before making the
initial turn...
 
luvflyin said:
1. Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle
clearance for all departures, including diverse, is
based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the
runway at least 35 feet above the departure end of
runway elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the
departure end of runway elevation before making the
initial turn...
Click to expand...

I read that as the departure end ELEVATION is the what you need to be 400 feet above, not that you need to be 400 feet AND at the departure end. It also reads as the design of the departure, not the flying reg.. I regularly turn before the runway end when departing IFR, never a peep from the tower.

Not trying to be argumentative, just want to make sure I understand.
 
luvflyin said:
1. Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle
clearance for all departures, including diverse, is
based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the
runway at least 35 feet above the departure end of
runway elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the
departure end of runway elevation before making the
initial turn...
Click to expand...

If you are in the clouds how do you know you have passed the end of the runway????????

I go with 400 feet. At our home base taking off to the south we always get "left to 050". I am usually in the turn by 3/4 of the way down the runway, ATC has never commented about when I did my turn.
 
IK04 said:
I suppose nowadays there is a DP for just about every airport with surface based controlled airspace...
Click to expand...
There is an ODP for every IFR airport. Surface airspace has nothing to do with it. The ODP can be diverse, abbreviated, or full-route, depending upon the obstacle environment.
 
Plano Pilot said:
If you are in the clouds how do you know you have passed the end of the runway????????

I go with 400 feet. At our home base taking off to the south we always get "left to 050". I am usually in the turn by 3/4 of the way down the runway, ATC has never commented about when I did my turn.
Click to expand...
If you are using a database departure (charted DP) it won't command the turn until the DER. It knows where the DER is.
 
I'm thinking you turned and became a potential problem for traffic in the pattern. I wait until 400 feet, but will turn lower if asked. I flew right seat with a friend on a compassion flight out of Boston. They asked for a right turn "when able" he waited until we were clear the tower to turn.... I have a cool picture, but it's too large to load here.
 
aterpster said:
If you are using a database departure (charted DP) it won't command the turn until the DER. It knows where the DER is.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but these rules and guidance were written before and don't contemplate GPS or any other way of identifying the end of the runway. And so far, Garmin's choices do not establishing operating rules. (Wally, am I correct that the box manufacturers are following TERPS ICA guidance?).

I can read that section of the AIM - which deals with obstacle clearance, not operating procedures anyway - either way. "based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway" suggests that the pilot has to, um, cross the departure end of the runway. But "above the departure end of runway elevation" is talking about how high, not where. If I am 400' above the end of runway elevation at midfield, I have met both of the elevation requirements.

I'll be interested in seeing cites to FAA documents which clarify its meaning as opposed to opinions about what it means.
 
Last edited:
Ask for an early turn on course. At places like Grant County (KMWH), with a 13.000 runway, it saves. It has always been approved for me.
 
luvflyin said:
1. Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle
clearance for all departures, including diverse, is
based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the
runway at least 35 feet above the departure end of
runway elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the
departure end of runway elevation before making the
initial turn...
Click to expand...

oh, yes - Im aware of this.
My comment, (which you noted as being mentioned in the AIM) was the controller telling me “Full length” on takeoff.
I have never heard it before on takeoff and the phraseology doesn’t appear to be on the AIM.
Thank you.
 
Hang 4 said:
I read that as the departure end ELEVATION is the what you need to be 400 feet above, not that you need to be 400 feet AND at the departure end. It also reads as the design of the departure, not the flying reg.. I regularly turn before the runway end when departing IFR, never a peep from the tower.

Not trying to be argumentative, just want to make sure I understand.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it is the ‘design’ so to speak. It is what obstacle clearance is based on, no turns before 400 feet and the DER. It does not expressly say you shall not turn earlier.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Yeah, but these rules and guidance were written before and don't contemplate GPS or any other way of identifying the end of the runway. And so far, Garmin's choices do not establishing operating rules. (Wally, am I correct that the box manufacturers are following TERPS ICA guidance?).

I can read that section of the AIM - which deals with obstacle clearance, not operating procedures anyway - either way. "based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the runway" suggests that the pilot has to, um, cross the departure end of the runway. But "above the departure end of runway elevation" is talking about how high, not where. If I am 400' above the end of runway elevation at midfield, I have met both of the elevation requirements.

I'll be interested in seeing cites to FAA documents which clarify its meaning as opposed to opinions about what it means.
Click to expand...

Being 400 feet above the end of the runway elevation at midfield does meet both elevation requirements. Being at 400 feet in and of itself meets the 35 foot thing. But ‘midfield’ doesn’t meet what the whole thing starts out with


1. Unless specified otherwise, required obstacle
clearance for all departures, including diverse, is
based on the pilot crossing the departure end of the
runway at least 35 feet above the departure end of
runway elevation, climbing to 400 feet above the
departure end of runway elevation before making the
initial turn....

You can’t cross the DER if you never get there because you turned at midfield
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
oh, yes - Im aware of this.
My comment, (which you noted as being mentioned in the AIM) was the controller telling me “Full length” on takeoff.
I have never heard it before on takeoff and the phraseology doesn’t appear to be on the AIM.
Thank you.
Click to expand...

My guess is they have been burned by early turns more than once. What airport? Parallel or intersecting Runways???
 
Again, the 400'/end of runway is the rule for maintaining obstacle clearance. If the pilot can visually provide his own clearance, he can do at what ever altitude and position he deems safe. 400 is still a good idea, but it's not written anywhere, nor is there an obligation to get to the end of the runway. I've been given an initial 180 degree turn coming out of IAD and in VMC I'll never get to the far end of the runway (nor was I expected to be).
 
IK04 said:
Way back before the Earth cooled and I was flying lots of instruments in the SF Bay Area, it was typical for the IFR clearance to begin with "Cleared to KXXX via after takeoff fly heading XXX..."

I suppose nowadays there is a DP for just about every airport with surface based controlled airspace...
Click to expand...
Depends. Some airports like KHWD still say. “Rwy heading until 400 feet, left turn heading170......”. Sometimes they actually amend that instruction by 100 feet.

Central Valley they can be pretty loose and just give the first vector.
 
midlifeflyer said:
If I am 400' above the end of runway elevation at midfield, I have met both of the elevation requirements.
Click to expand...
But that seems like just the opposite of the logic that says, "When circling in IFR conditions, you need to comply with the traffic pattern." Here, you're departing under IFR. Shouldn't you abide by the traffic pattern then too, if it's so all-fired important? FIG 4-3-2 of the AIM and accompanying legend says to climb straight out, not turning before 700' AGL.

Or, you can reconcile the conflict my way: When in VFR conditions, follow the pattern. When in IFR conditions, follow your best judgment. Arrivals or departures. No flying over the terminal, either.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Yeah, but these rules and guidance were written before and don't contemplate GPS or any other way of identifying the end of the runway. And so far, Garmin's choices do not establishing operating rules. (Wally, am I correct that the box manufacturers are following TERPS ICA guidance?).
Click to expand...
I presume it's from RTCA specifications, but I don't know that for certain.
 
aterpster said:
There is an ODP for every IFR airport. Surface airspace has nothing to do with it. The ODP can be diverse, abbreviated, or full-route, depending upon the obstacle environment.
Click to expand...

??? AIM 5-2-9 d.

d. ....When an instrument approach is initially developed for an airport, the need for DPs is assessed. The procedure designer conducts an obstacle analysis to support departure operations. If an aircraft may turn in any direction from a runway within the limits of the assessment area (see paragraph 5−2−9e3) and remain clear of obstacles, that runway passes what is called a diverse departure assessment and no ODP will be published....
 
flyingron said:
Again, the 400'/end of runway is the rule for maintaining obstacle clearance. If the pilot can visually provide his own clearance, he can do at what ever altitude and position he deems safe. 400 is still a good idea, but it's not written anywhere, nor is there an obligation to get to the end of the runway. I've been given an initial 180 degree turn coming out of IAD and in VMC I'll never get to the far end of the runway (nor was I expected to be).
Click to expand...

Define ‘obligation.’ The AIM certainly implies you shouldn’t be indiscriminately turning before the end of the Runway. 4-3-3 FIG 4-3-2 and FIG 4-3-3, example 4 of both, pages 4-3-4 and 4-3-5
 
aterpster said:
There is an ODP for every IFR airport. Surface airspace has nothing to do with it. The ODP can be diverse, abbreviated, or full-route, depending upon the obstacle environment.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I fixed it. Lack of sleep will make you do strange things...
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
A week ago I got a heading to fly and a”full length” instruction by tower.
I’d never heard it before on takeoff; he was saying “don’t be starting your turn til past the end of the runway”.
Maybe it’s in the PCG and I missed it.
Click to expand...
When I have received a takeoff clearance with the words full length, it was clearance to use the displaced threshold to begin my ground roll, not in reference to the departure end of the runway.
 
dtuuri said:
But that seems like just the opposite of the logic that says, "When circling in IFR conditions, you need to comply with the traffic pattern." Here, you're departing under IFR. Shouldn't you abide by the traffic pattern then too, if it's so all-fired important? FIG 4-3-2 of the AIM and accompanying legend says to climb straight out, not turning before 700' AGL.

Or, you can reconcile the conflict my way: When in VFR conditions, follow the pattern. When in IFR conditions, follow your best judgment. Arrivals or departures. No flying over the terminal, either.
Click to expand...

And don’t fly over the Mayor’s house
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top