I landed gear up

Palmpilot said:
Resignation is one of the FAA-identified hazardous attitudes.
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Just an old saying. My gear is down 3 miles from the downwind no matter what. I also don't do repeated touch and goes. Too easy to think you put the gear down and didn't.
 
Rushie said:
Mark always looked out the windows in the 182RG and had a saying he said out loud, something like “wheel on the left, wheel in the mirror” or something. Another benefit of high wing. He had another saying for the Baron, can’t recall it this morning.
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Was it ''3 green, 1 in the mirror''.??
 
steingar said:
Them that have and them that will
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Kenny Phillips said:
as I am reluctant to believe that most who fly retracts will do a belly landing
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Yes! While it's foolish to think that Part 91 folks flying 50-200 hrs per year can have anywhere near the proficiency of airline guys this really isn't something that should be forgotten.. there's a checklist, there's variations of GUMPS, there's audible warnings, and for Pete's sake the freaking plane just handles differently. Every turn to final needs to have one last flow. How, or why, this is missed is frustrating to me. I'm terrified it will happen to me someday, and I have to think that we're competent enough to remember the most basic things

steingar said:
I also don't do repeated touch and goes. Too easy to think you put the gear down and didn't
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I do the exact opposite.. how else are you going to habitualize something? "Just leave the gear down, I'm scared I'll forget it" is resigning yourself to failure. Always keep the same flow.. people who make short cuts and conditional-applications for each procedure are setting themselves up for failure. If you're doing pattern work and do 6 landings in a row without touching the gear it's no surprise that the next time you do a real landing you may forget to put it down



**and thanks to the OP, @PaulMillner, for the recount. It humanizes it for sure.
 
steingar said:
Just an old saying. My gear is down 3 miles from the downwind no matter what. I also don't do repeated touch and goes. Too easy to think you put the gear down and didn't.
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Yes I know, but I've never liked it. I prefer "them that have and them that might."
 
somorris said:
Say what you want, but it is really easy to get distracted. It only takes something unusual happening at just the right time.
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Usually it’s a couple somethings just at the right time. Most people can handle one.
 
Palmpilot said:
Yes I know, but I've never liked it. I prefer "them that have and them that might."
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Or “them that have and them that could”. It’s absolutely not a given. There are pilots that have died without ever landing gear up.

I think it works for steingar to use the saying to stay humble and recognize that it could happen to him. To me, it implies a sense of helplessness that I don’t like. “Might as well not try since it’s going to happen anyway” sort of thing.
 
Sterile cockpit below 4000' AGL? Seems overkill. I don't bother getting that high most of the time.
 
Most of the errors I've made flying were the result of talking to a passenger. This is a good reminder to be serious about enforcing the "no talking during critical phases of flight" rule.

I don't really have a distance or altitude rule, but I feel like I should. I'm thinking of 5 miles from the airport. Any thoughts?
 
Just curious… for the OP..
Do you diligently use printed checklists?
 
Jim K said:
I don't really have a distance or altitude rule, but I feel like I should. I'm thinking of 5 miles from the airport. Any thoughts?
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I’m an unofficial ‘abeam the numbers’, gear down. If doing a straight in, or some variation, A similar point NLT 1000’ AGL in VMC.
 
When starting a stabilized descent to the runway. The numbers on downwind, or glide slope intercept on final both work.
 
I am in sterile cockpit mode whenever I'm in the pattern. Coming in, I start at the descent to the airport, just before downwind, or when I start configuring for landing, depending on which happens first. My main concern is skipping something on the list because I'm thinking about something else. Going out, I'll stop when I have the plane configured for cruise. Landing, I'll stop when I'm clear of the active runway uncontrolled, or where I need to be, if there's a tower. Taking off, I start either just before runup, or if controlled when I start moving.

For passengers, I don't explain it as a distraction. I explain that I'm only smart enough to fly the plane and keep an awareness of other traffic. I have as much configured as I can before entering downwind, so that I can do a check on downwind, and on turning final. Short final, I expect to go around. I reverse that decision if the levers are right, gear is down, speed is good, and my landing point looks good. I don't do that because I have a great plan, it's force of habit as most of the approaches I made in training were lousy.

All that said, I'm afraid of gear up landings when I'm sitting at home on the sofa, let alone in the air.
 
Kritchlow said:
Gear is down three miles before downwind? Why?
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Once you get into the downwind distractions are not only possible, but quite likely. Humans are distractible by nature. I love the video someone put up about selective attention, got me good. Anyone can be sufficiently distracted to not put down the gear. Anyone says otherwise I'll distract them until they don't, and I don't hold a patch on your average 4 year old. I got distracted enough on takeoff once to forget to raise the gear, took almost minute to figure out why I was flying at 100 mph. And I have a giant bar in the middle of my panel.

A few miles out is far calmer and free from distraction. So I put the gear down 3 miles out. Costs me maybe an extra minute or two, and gives me really good piece of mind.
 
The instructor who did my complex transition pretty much drilled into me that if I didn't verify and call out loud "DOWN - 3 GREENS" on short final, it was a serious error.
The only time I even came close was when doing a 180 to the runway after an engine failure. I'm 200 AGL and thinking... Great, I'm going to make it back to the runway, what am I forgetting? Oh yeah, gear. Fortunately, it comes down fast in the Navion.

We've had three belly landings at our home field (to my knowledge). The first two were both flying boats (Seabee and a SeaRey) and the other was an MU-2. It was pretty much a non-event in all of these (the MU-2 sitting on it's belly still had prop clearance).
 
I'm a fan of "gear down to go down". My plane will maintain level flight at the same power that produces a ~500fpm descent when I drop the gear. I drop the gear abeam the numbers in the pattern, and at glideslope intercept on an instrument approach. Conveniently, piper programmed the gear horn just below this power level, so if I decide to ignore my rule, the airplane yells at me.
 
Thanks for sharing. I’m flying a lance now after a few years behind a 182. It is a sobering reminder about sterile cockpit snd running the checklists.
 
steingar said:
Once you get into the downwind distractions are not only possible, but quite likely. Humans are distractible by nature. I love the video someone put up about selective attention, got me good. Anyone can be sufficiently distracted to not put down the gear. Anyone says otherwise I'll distract them until they don't, and I don't hold a patch on your average 4 year old. I got distracted enough on takeoff once to forget to raise the gear, took almost minute to figure out why I was flying at 100 mph. And I have a giant bar in the middle of my panel.

A few miles out is far calmer and free from distraction. So I put the gear down 3 miles out. Costs me maybe an extra minute or two, and gives me really good piece of mind.
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Okay, but one should still fly the airplane correctly. IMO, dropping the gear that far out is not. I will let it go at that.
 
Jim K said:
I'm a fan of "gear down to go down". My plane will maintain level flight at the same power that produces a ~500fpm descent when I drop the gear. I drop the gear abeam the numbers in the pattern, and at glideslope intercept on an instrument approach. Conveniently, piper programmed the gear horn just below this power level, so if I decide to ignore my rule, the airplane yells at me.
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That sounds like a solid plan imo.
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay, but one should still fly the airplane correctly. IMO, dropping the gear that far out is not. I will let it go at that.
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I'm not clear on why dropping the gear three miles out is not flying the airplane correctly. It's not like he's flying on an opspec or whatever you call it, and I would be surprised if his POH is that specific about when it should be done.
 
Palmpilot said:
I'm not clear on why dropping the gear three miles out is not flying the airplane correctly. It's not like he's flying on an opspec or whatever you call it, and I would be surprised if his POH is that specific about when it should be done.
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Well in all of my history of training, and that’s pretty extensive from CFI to airline check airman, I’ve never heard of dropping gear that early. It’s always ben associated with a final descent. I suppose if the speeds allow one could drop the the gear 50 miles out. Point is, there is an unwritten standard I suppose. I’m all for safety, but not paranoia.
 
There was a crash in Houston years back where a DC-9 first officer was flying and observed the aircraft wasn't slowing down properly on approach. The captain essentially said "I've got it" and proceeded to land it gear up. Poor sterile cockpit behavior was attributed to that one as well. I'll have to search for the report. OK, here it is:

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR9701.pdf
 
Jim K said:
I'm a fan of "gear down to go down". My plane will maintain level flight at the same power that produces a ~500fpm descent when I drop the gear. I drop the gear abeam the numbers in the pattern, and at glideslope intercept on an instrument approach. Conveniently, piper programmed the gear horn just below this power level, so if I decide to ignore my rule, the airplane yells at me.
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Exactly how I fly the Mooney, clean downwind to abeam the numbers, and then drop the gear. On an approach, clean to the FAF and/or GS intercept, drop the gear. Straight in final? At 3mi final drop the gear. I think for the most part it's good to have consistent "rules" on when you drop the gear.
 
flyingron said:
There was a crash in Houston years back where a DC-9 first officer was flying and observed the aircraft wasn't slowing down properly on approach.
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I flew DC9s for over eleven years. It's hard to imagine how they managed to continue to the runway without knowing something was wrong. The handling of the aircraft would have been significantly different than on a normal approach.

The crew did put the gear handle down but they missed putting the hydraulics pumps (from low) to high and turning on the electric hydraulic pump and the alternate gear pump (PTU). This left the gear and flap/slat systems without the hydraulic pressure needed to respond to the gear handle and flap/slat selector.

It's really difficult to accidentally land a transport jet gear up. The speed, power, and handling characteristics change too much with those configuration changes for you to not notice.

From the CVR, the Captain was too concerned about whether the weather would hold for his tennis match later that day.
 
Larry in TN said:
This left the gear and flap/slat systems without the hydraulic pressure needed to respond to the gear handle and flap/slat selector.
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You have to turn up the hydraulics on the Navion as well. The dead give away however is that usually you can't move the gear handle if the hydraulics are not on as the weight of the unassisted gear on the uplocks are physically coupled to the handle make it hard to move (though I've done it). The emergency extension procedure is a larger handle (I kid you not) to give you more leverage.
 
Kritchlow said:
Well in all of my history of training, and that’s pretty extensive from CFI to airline check airman, I’ve never heard of dropping gear that early. It’s always ben associated with a final descent. I suppose if the speeds allow one could drop the the gear 50 miles out. Point is, there is an unwritten standard I suppose. I’m all for safety, but not paranoia.
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There's a big difference between three miles out and fifty miles! I can understand the concern when flying an aircraft that uses as much fuel as a airliner, but two minutes of extra drag just don't seem like that big a deal at the relatively low fuel consumption of the average GA aircraft.

There are situations where I have considered it advantageous to lower the gear that far out, and sometimes even father. I've flown with various CFIs over the past thirty years. None of them has ever criticized me for putting the gear down too early and none of them has ever advocated a standard, unwritten or otherwise, other than to recommend that it not be done too late.
 
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flyingron said:
The emergency extension procedure is a larger handle (I kid you not) to give you more leverage.
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The DC8 has too gear handles (the long-handle and the short-handle) which are normally joined together by a thumb screw. The short-handle operates the hydraulic functions while the long-handle operates mechanical functions (cables from the long-handle to the wheel wells).

If either handle became jammed, the handles could be separated, by removing the thumb-screws, and the operable handle moved to extend the gear.

All I could find was this pic taken from xplane, but it shows the two handles.

57a8074d99dd3_DC-8-71F_CentrePanel.thumb.jpg.88a256243afb72f212730d8e3b9b8eca.jpg
 
somorris said:
Gosh, Paul. I really hate to hear about this. I know it took a lot of courage to post this.

Your experience is exactly why I will never own a retract. I know how easily I get distracted and forget things.
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This is why we use checklists.
 
steingar said:
Once you get into the downwind distractions are not only possible, but quite likely. Humans are distractible by nature. I love the video someone put up about selective attention, got me good. Anyone can be sufficiently distracted to not put down the gear. Anyone says otherwise I'll distract them until they don't, and I don't hold a patch on your average 4 year old. I got distracted enough on takeoff once to forget to raise the gear, took almost minute to figure out why I was flying at 100 mph. And I have a giant bar in the middle of my panel.

A few miles out is far calmer and free from distraction. So I put the gear down 3 miles out. Costs me maybe an extra minute or two, and gives me really good piece of mind.
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I agree with this, and how you handle the situation. Three miles out isn't far. Airlines lower their gear much further out. I know I'll get distracted at some point, so I won't fly retracts. A guy's gotta know his limitations.
 
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