I landed gear up

Yes! While it's foolish to think that Part 91 folks flying 50-200 hrs per year can have anywhere near the proficiency of airline guys

I'm not so sure about that. Don't airline guys typically fly the same route over and over again? A part 91 guy flying a couple hundred hours a year is likey going to get much more diverse experiences. Look what happened to Asiana Airlines flight 214. They couldn't even fly the visual without a glideslope.
 
I agree with this, and how you handle the situation. Three miles out isn't far. Airlines lower their gear much further out. I know I'll get distracted at some point, so I won't fly retracts. A guy's gotta know his limitations.
The only difference between you and the rest of us is you admit it. We're all distractible by nature. I meant what I said, anyone says "I'll never forget to leave the gear down", I'll make him or her forget. They might not talk to me afterwards, but they'll forget. I think if you keep this in mind and develop good habits you can live with this easily. There are old old guys who in thousands of hours never once forgot to put the gear down.
 
Asiana Airlines flight 214
Hey at least they had their gear down!

I run the checklist one last time when turning final or passing the FAF. On short final I check the greenlights again. It seems however that checking a piece of paper for key items is a bridge too far for some; "I get distracted too easily to trust myself to run a checklist" is an egregious admission for a pilot
 
Don't airline guys typically fly the same route over and over again? A part 91 guy flying a couple hundred hours a year is likey going to get much more diverse experiences.

No.
 
Hey at least they had their gear down!

I run the checklist one last time when turning final or passing the FAF. On short final I check the greenlights again. It seems however that checking a piece of paper for key items is a bridge too far for some; "I get distracted too easily to trust myself to run a checklist" is an egregious admission for a pilot
I dunno. I trust myself to remember everything in GUMPS more than I trust myself to not miss a line on a written checklist when I'm dividing my attention between it and flying the airplane. It's not remembering the checklist so much as taking my eyes off the instruments or outside to look at it. The only way I can nearly guarantee to not skip a line is put my finger on it, which requires a third hand I haven't developed yet. I suppose an efb checklist would solve that, but then I'm giving up my approach plate.
 
It feels like there is a problem needing a real solution here.
 
I'm not so sure about that. Don't airline guys typically fly the same route over and over again? A part 91 guy flying a couple hundred hours a year is likey going to get much more diverse experiences.
Why do people think that?
 

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Don't airline guys typically fly the same route over and over again?
No. My airline has close to 400 737s that fly to destinations in North, Central, and South American and the Caribbean from seven hubs in the CONUS. That's a lot of different routes. In almost seven years, I still haven't made it to all of the cities to which my airplane flies. Previously, in other airplanes, I've flown all over the word including five of the seven continents.

Having each pilot fly only a limited set of routes would be inefficient. There's no reason why an airline would want to schedule that way. There's no benefit to them and it limits their ability to crew the entire schedule in the most efficient manner.
 
How did you generate those maps? Those are awesome. :)

(I thought that about 121 pilots but I admit I didn't think about it all that hard)
Ha. I had a longer post, but then just deleted it. I guess the maps didn't get deleted with the post.

My logbook generates them. I use CrewLounge PILOTLOG. https://pilotlog.crewlounge.aero/ I love it. It's a great application, although not as well known as the other popular ones.

Basically, here's the post I deleted (with edits):

Don't airline guys typically fly the same route over and over again? A part 91 guy flying a couple hundred hours a year is likey going to get much more diverse experiences.
I hear that a lot on here. I never got an explanation why that is. It's true that an airline pilot will be constrained to the locations served by their company and also by their fleet, but like @Larry in TN said, that's quite a few airports. In the same vain, don't GA pilots generally stick to the same handful of airports? Maybe it's me, and I'm doing GA wrong, but I have the half dozen or so breakfast/$100 hamburger places, the airport near my kids, and I'll see some new airports when my wife and I take the plane for a getaway/vacation.

Just out of curiosity, I mapped my last two years of flying. Here's what it looked like:
upload_2021-10-6_10-54-17.png

And I'm on the fleet at my company which probably is the least diverse just due to the type of flying it does. The other fleets would have much more diversity in their destinations.

But that really is besides the point. The issue is habits, checklist discipline, CRM, ADM, etc. I'm not relying on the flying I did over the last year to be safe, I'm relying on the flying I've done over the last 30 years for that. Here's a map of the flying I've done since I started taking lessons in a 152 at LDJ:

upload_2021-10-6_10-56-24.png

I'd say that a pretty good cross-section of airports and flying rules that I've experienced. Not to mention weather systems dealt with, aircraft malfunctions, diverts... the list goes on.

That's what I'm relying on day in and day out as I fly for both my airline and GA.

I'm not trying to say that airline flying is the end-all-be-all of flying experience. When I'm in my GA airplane, there's a whole lot of issues I have to deal with that I normally don't have to at the airline. I'm not topping any CBs in the Seneca. I'm not shooting a Cat III to 300 RVR. But there are other things. Different types of weather, smaller fuel reserves, no dispatcher to ACARS me and let me know of SIGMETS up ahead.

All this isn't to say that I don't have the ability to go out next week and really ball something up badly. I'm fallible just like the rest of us, but hopefully my experience bag is filling up slowly all while my luck bag stays somewhat full as well.
 

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Ha. I had a longer post, but then just deleted it. I guess the maps didn't get deleted with the post.

My logbook generates them. I use CrewLounge PILOTLOG. https://pilotlog.crewlounge.aero/ I love it. It's a great application, although not as well known as the other popular ones.

Basically, here's the post I deleted (with edits):


I hear that a lot on here. I never got an explanation why that is. It's true that an airline pilot will be constrained to the locations served by their company and also by their fleet, but like @Larry in TN said, that's quite a few airports. In the same vain, don't GA pilots generally stick to the same handful of airports? Maybe it's me, and I'm doing GA wrong, but I have the half dozen or so breakfast/$100 hamburger places, the airport near my kids, and I'll see some new airports when my wife and I take the plane for a getaway/vacation.

Just out of curiosity, I mapped my last two years of flying. Here's what it looked like:
View attachment 100714

And I'm on the fleet at my company which probably is the least diverse just due to the type of flying it does. The other fleets would have much more diversity in their destinations.

But that really is besides the point. The issue is habits, checklist discipline, CRM, ADM, etc. I'm not relying on the flying I did over the last year to be safe, I'm relying on the flying I've done over the last 30 years for that. Here's a map of the flying I've done since I started taking lessons in a 152 at LDJ:

View attachment 100716

I'd say that a pretty good cross-section of airports and flying rules that I've experienced. Not to mention weather systems dealt with, aircraft malfunctions, diverts... the list goes on.

That's what I'm relying on day in and day out as I fly for both my airline and GA.

I'm not trying to say that airline flying is the end-all-be-all of flying experience. When I'm in my GA airplane, there's a whole lot of issues I have to deal with that I normally don't have to at the airline. I'm not topping any CBs in the Seneca. I'm not shooting a Cat III to 300 RVR. But there are other things. Different types of weather, smaller fuel reserves, no dispatcher to ACARS me and let me know of SIGMETS up ahead.

All this isn't to say that I don't have the ability to go out next week and really ball something up badly. I'm fallible just like the rest of us, but hopefully my experience bag is filling up slowly all while my luck bag stays somewhat full as well.
Really cool map! I will check it out

I use Foreflight currently and the logbook is OKAY.. mainly good for currency tracking.. BUT, I wish it had better interactive maps. I did something with Python to plot great circles, and tinkered in Tableau, but that's tedious. I'll check this out
 
don't GA pilots generally stick to the same handful of airports? Maybe it's me, and I'm doing GA wrong, but I have the half dozen or so breakfast/$100 hamburger places, the airport near my kids, and I'll see some new airports when my wife and I take the plane for a getaway/vacation.

Some of us GA guys get around. My last 18 months:

airports.JPG
 
I dunno. I trust myself to remember everything in GUMPS more than I trust myself to not miss a line on a written checklist when I'm dividing my attention between it and flying the airplane. It's not remembering the checklist so much as taking my eyes off the instruments or outside to look at it. The only way I can nearly guarantee to not skip a line is put my finger on it, which requires a third hand I haven't developed yet. I suppose an efb checklist would solve that, but then I'm giving up my approach plate.

It’s a good practice to restart the checklist if you were interrupted, rather than try to remember where you were.
 
In the same vain, don't GA pilots generally stick to the same handful of airports? Maybe it's me, and I'm doing GA wrong, but I have the half dozen or so breakfast/$100 hamburger places, the airport near my kids, and I'll see some new airports when my wife and I take the plane for a getaway/vacation.

Some seem to just go to the same small set of airports.

There are some I go to more often, such as one where our middle daughter lives. Or to where many Angel Flight patients that I fly go for cancer treatment, but their homes are in different places, so it's not all the same.

Otherwise they vary quite a bit for me.



Wayne
 
..well if we're playing that game, the last year or so of flights

upload_2021-10-6_16-9-55.png

the great circle routes don't look as pretty as Sluggo's given the less epic distances :(
 
Some of us GA guys get around. My last 18 months:

View attachment 100718

Some seem to just go to the same small set of airports.

There are some I go to more often, such as one where our middle daughter lives. Or to where many Angel Flight patients that I fly go for cancer treatment, but their homes are in different places, so it's not all the same.

Otherwise they vary quite a bit for me.



Wayne

..well if we're playing that game, the last year or so of flights

View attachment 100719

the great circle routes don't look as pretty as Sluggo's given the less epic distances :(

These are awesome. You guys are doing GA right. Like I said before, it's probably me doing it wrong. When we got the plane, the primary mission was to see the kids out in Texas, and when we had a block of free time, the wife was always saying "Let's take the plane to Austin." So we did--all the time.

It's in annual right now, but when I get it back I'm going to try hard to get my GA maps to look more like your guys'.
 
These are awesome. You guys are doing GA right. Like I said before, it's probably me doing it wrong. When we got the plane, the primary mission was to see the kids out in Texas, and when we had a block of free time, the wife was always saying "Let's take the plane to Austin." So we did--all the time.

It's in annual right now, but when I get it back I'm going to try hard to get my GA maps to look more like your guys'.

Nothing wrong with that. Turning a long drive into a nice flight is a good thing. We could drive to visit our daughter in Lexington, but it’s a 6 hour drive on a good day. Flying it’s 1:30 - 1:45 of flying time. Quick enough that I flew up to get her, her 2 dogs and a friend when they came to visit Atlanta for the Labor Day weekend.

We visited the youngest in Pueblo this year. She’s moving to Oklahoma City, last stop in her rotation program. So, I see flying there in our future. That will be a shorter flight than to Pueblo. :cool:

I just took my first commercial flight in over two years; COVID nixed our plans last year that would have had commercial flights. I’m already dreading the flight home. I’ve really enjoyed doing a lot of traveling via GA.

It will be fun to throw some other destinations into your mix with Austin. We need to get to Austin some time ourselves, and add that to our destinations. :)
 
You guys are doing GA right
I stopped flying for a few years because I lacked a "mission" .. when I got back into flying I basically created missions, fancy word for an excuse to fly haha

But that has let me see different cool places. I don't have an actual "need" to fly GA though.. IE, no family 500 nm away, no work related function. I often lament at the $$ I've spent flying other people's planes. But the memories are nice...
 
Never heard of someone lowering the gear early landing gear up. But obviously @Kritchlow knows better.;)
No kidding? Read what you wrote. I’m laughing my butt off!!!!

I mean, I’ve never heard of anyone lowering the gear late landing gear up either.
 
No kidding? Read what you wrote. I’m laughing my butt off!!!!

I mean, I’ve never heard of anyone lowering the gear late landing gear up either.
I know guys who lower the gear late who forgot to do so for one reason for another. I could forget 3 miles out, but I have lots more time to remember. Like I said, you seem have an inflated opinion of your opinion. Don't quite know why.
 
What I'm really REALLY afraid of is forgetting to keep my gear UP when landing the amphib on water. I think its something like a 50% survival rate if you do that, you immediately get disorientated and plunged under water in a confined cabin.

Hopefully the fear keeps me sharp and from getting complacent.

Forgetting to put your gear DOWN on land = expensive mistake with a bruised ego.
Forgetting to put your gear UP on water = lethal mistake.
 
I mean, I’ve never heard of anyone lowering the gear late landing gear up either.
This guy managed both. Somehow landed gear up, somehow managed to go around, I'm pretty sure he lowered the gear wherever he landed (lowered the gear late).
 
What I'm really REALLY afraid of is forgetting to keep my gear UP when landing the amphib on water. I think its something like a 50% survival rate if you do that, you immediately get disorientated and plunged under water in a confined cabin.

Hopefully the fear keeps me sharp and from getting complacent.

Forgetting to put your gear DOWN on land = expensive mistake with a bruised ego.
Forgetting to put your gear UP on water = lethal mistake.

There was a safety video about that, I think aopa, where that happened. The pilot survived but his teenage son didn't. I think it was the most heartbreaking safety video I've ever seen. Can't imagine how awful that would be.
 
There was a safety video about that, I think aopa, where that happened. The pilot survived but his teenage son didn't. I think it was the most heartbreaking safety video I've ever seen. Can't imagine how awful that would be.
Wasn't it was his 4 year old grand son? That was a hard one. It would be difficult to keep going after something like that. I don't think id be able to fly again at any rate. IIRC he gifted a bunch of money to asi to make more of those videos.
 
That might have been it. Was rough to watch...I had no idea how much of a danger that was for amphibians.
 
Well now I feel better about driving my car for an hour at 70 mph yesterday with the parking brake on.

We all mess up. Hope you get repaired and back in the air soon!
I once did that in an RV. About 15 minutes down the road people were driving up beside us, rolling down their windows, and yelling “YOU’RE ON FIRE!!!” Got the brake fire put out, kept going, and a few miles later one of the tires exploded from the heat. ‍♂️
 
Haven’t. Yet. Hope never to do so. Thank you for the write up and reminder that we are all flawed individuals. I’ve always used ‘the gear is down, the gear is down, the gear is down’, said out loud, on base. Silly and simplistic: Yet, better than that long walk from midfield to the FBO.
Glad all were safe, and sorry you had the opportunity to educate us all.
 
Wasn't it was his 4 year old grand son? That was a hard one. It would be difficult to keep going after something like that. I don't think id be able to fly again at any rate. IIRC he gifted a bunch of money to asi to make more of those videos.

It was his son.5-ish as I recall. Horrible situation.
 
This guy managed both. Somehow landed gear up, somehow managed to go around, I'm pretty sure he lowered the gear wherever he landed (lowered the gear late).

Scary that in this guys ADM repertoire is -risk your life to fly back home with 2 bad props! There are some interesting GA pilots out there flying among us.
 
Gosh, Paul. I really hate to hear about this. I know it took a lot of courage to post this.

Your experience is exactly why I will never own a retract. I know how easily I get distracted and forget things.

Good luck going forward. I hope you get things repaired quickly.

This was pretty much where I came down on a recent purchase decision. I think I could learn to have a solid gear down/GUMPS 3 times in the pattern routine, but getting rid of all distractions from that routine requires its own distraction from the routine...maybe in the preflight you tell everyone they need to be quiet within 20 miles of the destination, or similar, so you don't find yourself chirping at them to be quiet while you forget to do the GUMPS check...
 
Scary that in this guys ADM repertoire is -risk your life to fly back home with 2 bad props! There are some interesting GA pilots out there flying among us.
At age 85 or whatever it's pretty much all gravy.
 
I once did that in an RV. About 15 minutes down the road people were driving up beside us, rolling down their windows, and yelling “YOU’RE ON FIRE!!!” Got the brake fire put out, kept going, and a few miles later one of the tires exploded from the heat. ‍♂️

You didn't smell it? I was warming up a sprint car years ago (was a welder prior to medical-was offered to run it on some practice laps after fixing a roll cage) ... after tapping brakes once, the left front failed to fully release, smell was god awful real fast...
 
This was pretty much where I came down on a recent purchase decision. I think I could learn to have a solid gear down/GUMPS 3 times in the pattern routine, but getting rid of all distractions from that routine requires its own distraction from the routine...maybe in the preflight you tell everyone they need to be quiet within 20 miles of the destination, or similar, so you don't find yourself chirping at them to be quiet while you forget to do the GUMPS check...

I have never met Paul in person, but I know him very well online. I think if he can get distracted and land his Cardinal gear up, anyone can under the right circumstances. I have seen senior CFI's in a plane together, talking away, and land gear up with a rear seat passenger trying to get their attention to tell them the gear wasn't down. In the video, you could hear the gear warning horn blaring away. I'm in agreement with you -- know thyself! :)
 
I have never met Paul in person, but I know him very well online. I think if he can get distracted and land his Cardinal gear up, anyone can under the right circumstances. I have seen senior CFI's in a plane together, talking away, and land gear up with a rear seat passenger trying to get their attention to tell them the gear wasn't down. In the video, you could hear the gear warning horn blaring away. I'm in agreement with you -- know thyself! :)
Yes industrial safety is all about creating systems that keep humans from doing things that humans notoriously do. The fancy panels can probably tell you when you are less than 500 feet from the ground, but if you arent listening, what good is it? Having routines and rules and living by them has to be the answer to saving us from ourselves in this case. I have not seen an airliner land gear up, so we probably just need to copy those protocols as much as possible.
 
You didn't smell it? I was warming up a sprint car years ago (was a welder prior to medical-was offered to run it on some practice laps after fixing a roll cage) ... after tapping brakes once, the left front failed to fully release, smell was god awful real fast...
Surprisingly, no. Like you said, hot brakes have a very distinct smell, so you'd think that at least somebody in the back by the brakes would have smelled it, but nobody did.
 
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