I hope you can afford that air ambulance you need to save your life.

[denverpilot]

It's also much easier to get a clear shot at how much you have to pay your insurance a month, vs what they are willing to pay so you don't die.

I read all the fine print I can get my hands on when our insurance options come up for renewal. I couldn’t tell you if they’d pay to keep me alive or not, really.

It’s impossible gobbledegook to decipher, even in the dumbed down marketing slicks handed out each year during open enrollment periods.

“Here’s a list of chit we only cover at this percentage, and another list of chit we cover at a different percentage. You’ll need six weeks and a calculator to figure out our actuaries know how to screw you better than you think, after you guess at your real risks for these things.”

Auto insurance has gone the same route, only slightly simpler. “Oh, you don’t have the deer jumped out and swerved” coverage. That’s a special add on and not available in your area, because you actually have deer out there.” LOL.

 

[James331]

I didn't read through all of the comments, but what do you guys think is fair? I'm not arguing that $40K is reasonable, but I'm not sure what is. We're talking about for-profit companies, so can we assume the government is not supplementing them? Are they actually making a profit in the end?

Price estimates by BJT Online

Cost of EC-145 New - $9.7M
Total Fixed Costs per year - $522K
Total Crew Costs per year - $268K (Add $90K for flight nurse.)
Total Variable Costs per year - $436K

Just like government doesn't subsidize auto insurance when you're legally forced to buy it?

 

[Velocity173]

I didn't read through all of the comments, but what do you guys think is fair? I'm not arguing that $40K is reasonable, but I'm not sure what is. We're talking about for-profit companies, so can we assume the government is not supplementing them? Are they actually making a profit in the end?

Price estimates by BJT Online

Cost of EC-145 New - $9.7M
Total Fixed Costs per year - $522K
Total Crew Costs per year - $268K (Add $90K for flight nurse.)
Total Variable Costs per year - $436K

The problem is, these companies aren’t getting 40K per flight. That might be what some are charging but after Medicare or private insurance has got done haggling with them, the reimbursement is far less. Generally Medicare pays roughly 60 % of what the actual flight costs (around $10,200). Depending on the company, they may or may not aggressively go after the remaining amount from the patient. Then, you’ve got those without any insurance at all or the homeless where the company will most likely eat the entire cost of the flight. At any rate, these companies aren’t getting 40K per. If they did, their profit margins wouldn’t be just above the average S&P 500, they’d be near the top of it.

 

[Velocity173]

I never mentioned driving themselves. The symptoms given weren’t enough to switch to air transport, which got my curiosity up is all.

I don’t doubt the need for those two, it was more of a “If that’s the symptoms, one is a lot more expensive than the other, and some people might be better off in the long run, opting out” comment.

People in the general population a) Don’t know how expensive medical air transport is. b) Don’t look for coverage in their medical insurance. That creates a problem when the bill comes.

Example, I’ve never seen a Medevac pilot or flight nurse at one of those PR events where the aircraft is parked, talking pricing, and you won’t see it on the Marketing created info graphic panels that are set up next to the “ooh, shiny” helicopter at those events. Hahaha.

“You can get a ride in this across town for only $30,000!” Not exactly the Marketing they’re going for. Hahahahaha.

And yeah, I don’t know your operating area, but I understand you’re doing it more rural and further from appropriate care facilities.

Lifesaving aircraft, for sure. Just not cheap. Know two people who’s lives were saved by them, so I get it.

Up until this thread, I’d never heard of the gimmick insurance for getting coverage to fly in one. Amazed at how many people here say they have it. I usually want medical transport coverage when outside the US, but never seen anyone say they had a subscription inside CONUS. Saw a couple of folks say they have it in AK, and that probably makes sense.

I don’t know if I’d call it a “gimmick.” Talked to several people at PR events that told me they didn’t pay a dime for their flight.

https://www.airmedcarenetwork.com/apply/

https://www.airmethods.com/airmethodsadvantage/home

 

[bnt83]

I've also never seen docs talk about pricing.

It's also much easier to get a clear shot at how much you have to pay your insurance a month, vs what they are willing to pay so you don't die.

Real world it's the modern and especially government influenced insurance industry which has caused all the crazy health costs to skyrocket.

In one of the ICUs around here there's a late 1940s receipt for child birth and like 4 or 5 days in the hospital, think adjusted for inflation it came out to less than $5k today's dollars.
However the average cost to shoot out a kid now is $12,000 - $15,000 bucks, WTF?!

Add to that nowadays with ultrasounds, copy machines, EKGs, telemedicine, etc and all workload saving tools people have with modern tech, if anything pound for pound it probably was more "work" for the hospital back then.

A local health care provider just bought the rights to name the local arena for almost $25m. This was the same healthcare provider that was suspended from "in network coverage" by the biggest (I think) health insurer due to uncompetitive pricing, that contract negotiation lasted about 6 months I believe, while their customers insurance coverage was jacked up.

 

[bnt83]

Can charter a Citation X and fly from one coast to the other in about 5 hours for a hell of a lot less than a 20 minute ride on medevac heli.

 

[Lowflynjack]

The problem is, these companies aren’t getting 40K per flight. That might be what some are charging but after Medicare or private insurance has got done haggling with them, the reimbursement is far less. Generally Medicare pays roughly 60 % of what the actual flight costs (around $10,200). Depending on the company, they may or may not aggressively go after the remaining amount from the patient. Then, you’ve got those without any insurance at all or the homeless where the company will most likely eat the entire cost of the flight. At any rate, these companies aren’t getting 40K per. If they did, their profit margins wouldn’t be just above the average S&P 500, they’d be near the top of it.

Yep, even the first post shows a $40K bill, with the insurance paying $4300. That's all they'll get in most cases. Most people can't or won't pay the difference.

Most of the private medical helicopters around here sit around most of the time. Assume they get even what I think is high at two calls a night, 365 days a year, and that's $3M, and it should be profitable in the long run. However, tell the insurance company you can do it for $5000/flight and they'll start paying $500.

 

[James331]

I didn't read through all of the comments, but what do you guys think is fair? I'm not arguing that $40K is reasonable, but I'm not sure what is. We're talking about for-profit companies, so can we assume the government is not supplementing them? Are they actually making a profit in the end?

Price estimates by BJT Online

Cost of EC-145 New - $9.7M
Total Fixed Costs per year - $522K
Total Crew Costs per year - $268K (Add $90K for flight nurse.)
Total Variable Costs per year - $436K

The yearly cost for 4 flight medics, 4 flight nurses, 2 full time mechanics and 4 pilots well beyond ATP mins is only 268k??
Divided equaly that's like $19,142 per person lol
And that's not even covering insurance, 401k, etc

Not sure what 2500+hr pilots, experienced mechanics and flight medics and nurses you can find to work well below the poverty line, sure as heck none that I'd want to work on me if I got hurt!

 

[Lowflynjack]

The yearly cost for 4 flight medics, 4 flight nurses, 2 full time mechanics and 4 pilots well beyond ATP mins is only 268k??
Divided equaly that's like $19,142 per person lol
And that's not even covering insurance, 401k, etc

Not sure what 2500+hr pilots, experienced mechanics and flight medics and nurses you can find to work well below the poverty line, sure as heck none that I'd want to work on me if I got hurt!

Yeah, that’s the estimated for a crew of you bought a helicopter for business. Double it or triple it to keep a staff 24/7, then add the medical crew. And even then it’s an estimate.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Lets face it, US insurance based health care is a total and complete hopeless mess. Just put everyone on Medicare and be done with it. The richest nation in the world CAN afford it. We deserve it. We all need it. Get it DONE!

 

[Velocity173]

Yeah, that’s the estimated for a crew of you bought a helicopter for business. Double it or triple it to keep a staff 24/7, then add the medical crew. And even then it’s an estimate.

Average base operating cost is about $3,000,000 annually. That’s doing about 300 flights a year.

 

[denverpilot]

I don’t know if I’d call it a “gimmick.” Talked to several people at PR events that told me they didn’t pay a dime for their flight.

https://www.airmedcarenetwork.com/apply/

https://www.airmethods.com/airmethodsadvantage/home

“Gimmick” insurance is not a phrase meaning “didn’t pay”.

It’s a term meaning an insurance type that insures for a very rare occurrence at a price significantly above normal with enormous profit margins, that very few people purchase.

Like “getting hit by a meteor” insurance.

I’m sure the meteor insurance pays out to the families if claimed.

 

[Velocity173]

“Gimmick” insurance is not a phrase meaning “didn’t pay”.

It’s a term meaning an insurance type that insures for a very rare occurrence at a price significantly above normal with enormous profit margins, that very few people purchase.

Like “getting hit by a meteor” insurance.

I’m sure the meteor insurance pays out to the families if claimed.

I know. They don’t refer to it as insurance at all. It’s just a flight program “membership” that supplements your existing insurance.

 

[kyleb]

Healthcare is expensive because capabilities are expensive. Back when those childbirths were $5k (inflation adjusted), there were no MRI's, ultrasounds, lactation consultants, infant breathing tents, or a hundred other technologies that everyone expects today. All of that stuff costs money - not just in the initial purchase price, but someone has to be trained to operate it, work on it, certify it, interpret the results, etc. It's expensive.

When Eisenhower had his first heart attack, they basically told him to lose some weight and cut back on the ciggies. Today, we'd be talking bypasses, stints, and a dozen other expensive treatments. You get much better healthcare today, but it costs a lot more money.

Add in the CYA testing most doctors do and the churn of referrals, and the expenses go up even more.

The cherry on top is the the cost of liability insurance. A bad outcome (not even the doc's fault) and a sympathetic jury can ring up an eyewatering bill in a very short time. We all pay for that.

 

[denverpilot]

I know. They don’t refer to it as insurance at all. It’s just a flight program “membership” that supplements your existing insurance.

I’d call it a “membership” too, if it helped me avoid being regulated under a State insurance regulator.

It’s insurance. They’re just getting away with skirting insurance regulation and insurance commission oversight.

Same thing as politicians who say something is a fee instead of a tax.

 

[Velocity173]

I’d call it a “membership” too, if it helped me avoid being regulated under a State insurance regulator.

It’s insurance. They’re just getting away with skirting insurance regulation and insurance commission oversight.

Same thing as politicians who say something is a fee instead of a tax.

I agree but I got jumped on by our regional sales guy one day when I called it flight insurance. “It’s not insurance. It’s a flight program membership.” Imagine he would’ve blown his lid if I called it a Ponzi scheme.

Whatever you call it, I’ve met several people who said their family member was flown with no out of pocket costs on it. Some counties are starting to purchase a flight program for the entire county. Unfortunately, there are times when a competitor flys into the county and not on their program.

 

[Stephanie B]

If the AirMed guys weren't profitable, they wouldn't be doing it. So they can cry all they want, but they're still making money.

 

[weilke]

If the AirMed guys weren't profitable, they wouldn't be doing it. So they can cry all they want, but they're still making money.

And if there wasn't good money in it, we wouldn't have helos from competing outfits based within miles of each other.