I hate this FAR

Salty

Salty

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Salty
91.126b(2)

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.
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To me this is just not thought out. If they land on the same runway then they aren't avoiding the flow of fixed-wing aircraft, are they? So to pretend like this is fixing anything is ignoring reality. If they are landing on a taxiway (helicopter) or grassy area (parachute), then I agree, but if they are using the same runway as fixed-wing aircraft, they should freaking fly the same flow!

One airport I go to occasionally has trikes and gyros and they all fly at different heights close patterns, and it just makes things worse. It does NOT improve safety at all.

This weekend we had a helicopter practicing on our runway, doing right pattern and hovering on the end of the runway for ages. Very irritating, but the right pattern just made it harder to figure out what was going on, it did NOT improve safety in any way.

/rant
 
I know very little about helicopter operations, so there may be a good reason for this, but I tend to agree, based on an experience flying into Gatlinburg. There's a helicopter school there, and they fly right patterns, putting them head on with the fixed wing planes in the left pattern. That traffic pattern was a mess.
 
Mikey52 said:
Imagine a helicopter passing 100 ft over a powered parachute.
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Or a typical GA single. The downwash off those is crazy. That's the reason for the FAR as far as helicopters. Then the powered parachute is for avoidance of wake from planes.
 
Yeah, similar here, and the trikes and gyros are typically NORDO which makes it even worse.

One of the hospital helos is planning to base out of KGIF soon and as been making a few flights here lately. At least it’s a professional pilot who understands the traffic situation and is good about communicating, but the odd patterns and taxiway landings and hovering are confusing, plus the turbulence off the rotor can be pretty bad.
 
Salty said:
91.126b(2)



To me this is just not thought out. If they land on the same runway then they aren't avoiding the flow of fixed-wing aircraft, are they? So to pretend like this is fixing anything is ignoring reality. If they are landing on a taxiway (helicopter) or grassy area (parachute), then I agree, but if they are using the same runway as fixed-wing aircraft, they should freaking fly the same flow!

One airport I go to occasionally has trikes and gyros and they all fly at different heights close patterns, and it just makes things worse. It does NOT improve safety at all.

This weekend we had a helicopter practicing on our runway, doing right pattern and hovering on the end of the runway for ages. Very irritating, but the right pattern just made it harder to figure out what was going on, it did NOT improve safety in any way.

/rant
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Hard disagree. Even if they're using the same runway, they don't move around the same as airplanes. I'd rather not share the pattern with them. In fact, that's led to deaths.
 
“Avoid the flow” isn’t very clear either. Most assume helicopters are required to do right traffic to avoid the flow. Doesn’t say in the FARs to do that. Some places have a smaller / lower helicopter pattern with left traffic within the fixedwing pattern.

Either way, left, right or straight in, at some point if the helicopter is going to the runway and they’re in the flow of the fixedwing pattern. Now, why do they need the runway? Well a lot of EPs during training require a runway. While I could do an auto or a hydraulics off to a taxiway, it’s a whole lot safer to go to the runway.
It’s also a bit difficult to do a practice IAP and not get in the way of fixedwing on final.
 
Salty said:
This weekend a helicopter did apparently.
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Didn’t you have a radio handy?

“Helicopter N123AB, Pilot Country tower. You’re hovering over my runway without a clearance. Possible pilot deviation. I have a number for you to call. Advise when ready to copy.”

:devil:
 
They did 3 or 4 trips around the pattern before I left and they were still there when I got back 40 minutes later….
 
Nope
 
Local helicopter schools based on the nearby controlled fields flock to my uncontrolled airport, where they occupy the runway letting their student get their hover practice in. If someone complains, their response is along the lines of "My student is spending tens of thousands of dollars on his lessons, that's more important than your recreational flying."

That's the ones that DON'T turn their radios off, of course. "It interferes with instruction...."

Ron Wanttaja
 
Had a flight for life chopper announce "departing the hangar, flying parallel 29 and departing to the south". Dunno if that would be in violation or not
 
Many years ago, we had this debate with our local FSDO. I had a Powered Parachute, but out local runway is Right Traffic 17, Left Traffic 35, and we were landing in the grass to the West of the runway. If we flew an opposite pattern, we would have to cross the runway (or at least final) to get to the West side.

The FAA rep said the FAR says to avoid the flow, but that could mean we fly a 500' pattern instead of a 1000', and we'd be out of the flow. This is debatable though since 91.126 Part B is Direction of Turns and under part B, are Parts 1 & 2.
 
wanttaja said:
Local helicopter schools based on the nearby controlled fields flock to my uncontrolled airport, where they occupy the runway letting their student get their hover practice in. If someone complains, their response is along the lines of "My student is spending tens of thousands of dollars on his lessons, that's more important than your recreational flying."

That's the ones that DON'T turn their radios off, of course. "It interferes with instruction...."

Ron Wanttaja
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My response would be "IDGAF, I've also spent tens of thousands of dollars on my training also. You can hover over Farmer Ben's field. I can't land there. Quit hogging the runway, a-hole."

If they want to have words on the ground with me, I'm pretty sure they will go cower and run away.
 
yeah, anecdotally, have to admit their approach to our presence/airspace conflict (helo flight schools) has been very rude/pugilistic when I was stationed at my previous metro usa locale. I find it interesting others on here have similar narratives.

fwiw, it appears not just anti-recreational antagonism; they display that same hostiltiy to military training as well. Funny how if you even are accidentally perceived to "get in the way" of these people's entitlement to their purported income stream, they drop the "yellow ribbon rah rah thank you for your service" Texas pretense shtick real quick. Southern hospitality my.....
 
Salty said:
91.126b(2)



To me this is just not thought out. If they land on the same runway then they aren't avoiding the flow of fixed-wing aircraft, are they? So to pretend like this is fixing anything is ignoring reality. If they are landing on a taxiway (helicopter) or grassy area (parachute), then I agree, but if they are using the same runway as fixed-wing aircraft, they should freaking fly the same flow!

One airport I go to occasionally has trikes and gyros and they all fly at different heights close patterns, and it just makes things worse. It does NOT improve safety at all.

This weekend we had a helicopter practicing on our runway, doing right pattern and hovering on the end of the runway for ages. Very irritating, but the right pattern just made it harder to figure out what was going on, it did NOT improve safety in any way.

/rant
Click to expand...
Ok, so what do you want the regulation to say?
 
I guess I've been really lucky. Nearly all the helicopters I've been around were very courteous, and worked to stay in a separate area. Maybe because they were National Guard or life flight.
The only slightly PITA exceptions have been down near NYC with sightseeing or news. Those guys weren't rude or anything, but seemed to have only a rough understanding of the compass directions. Flew around the airport kinda like a squirrel in a garage.
 
Even with a tower....it sometimes doesn't end well. A few years ago at FDK a controller flew a Cirrus into an R44.
 
I have heard some crazy interpretations of this and flying a pattern on the wrong side is definitely not how it is done. For non-training operations, taking off and landing as direct to the final spot on the airfield is the best way to go. Avoiding overflight of fragile aircraft and structures is the primary concern.

For training requiring autorotations or (single engine) running landings, the runway is required and flying the fixed wing pattern is necessary to avoid confusion. Itty bitty helicopters can avoid fixed wing traffic without needing a pattern, but the big'uns (30,000-50,000 pounds) have unique restrictions.

Hovering should be done as far away as possible from anything not bolted down and since most airplane drivers have no idea how rotorwash works, being a polite airport neighbor may mean going somewhere else.
 
Jim K said:
I know very little about helicopter operations, so there may be a good reason for this, but I tend to agree, based on an experience flying into Gatlinburg. There's a helicopter school there, and they fly right patterns, putting them head on with the fixed wing planes in the left pattern. That traffic pattern was a mess.
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Oh man I had a similar frustrating experience in Gatlinburg. I guess I’m not the only one. It seems like helicopter pilots think they own the place. I find it stressful flying into there, but I am learning a lot from this thread.
 
A month(?) ago, a helicopter, avoiding the flow, landed in between a row of hangers at my airport.
A towered airport.
It flew past and plunked down three hangers down from where I was inside a hanger with the door wide open, helping a friend button up his plane after his annual.
It took both of us, hanging on the plane to keep it from being damaged by the backwash. Sand and grit flying everywhere.
Sooooo much safer, avoiding the flow.
FAA is "investigating".
 
Pesky helicopter taking too much time over runway.??

Here is one way to get the message across...

 
IK04 said:
I have heard some crazy interpretations of this and flying a pattern on the wrong side is definitely not how it is done. For non-training operations, taking off and landing as direct to the final spot on the airfield is the best way to go. Avoiding overflight of fragile aircraft and structures is the primary concern.

For training requiring autorotations or (single engine) running landings, the runway is required and flying the fixed wing pattern is necessary to avoid confusion. Itty bitty helicopters can avoid fixed wing traffic without needing a pattern, but the big'uns (30,000-50,000 pounds) have unique restrictions.

Hovering should be done as far away as possible from anything not bolted down and since most airplane drivers have no idea how rotorwash works, being a polite airport neighbor may mean going somewhere else.
Click to expand...

Your take is very refreshing and seems very logical and sane to me. My experience tells me that not everyone thinks as you do. I'm a 35 year Private Pilot ASEL with instrument airplane. I have seen helicopters using the opposite pattern many, many times over the years. I don't think I've ever seen helicopters using the same pattern as airplanes. I've always been told (by CFIs and others) that helos use the opposite pattern to "avoid the flow of fixed-wing traffic". I have always thought it was stupid because it puts two aircraft on a collision course.
 
pburger said:
Your take is very refreshing and seems very logical and sane to me. My experience tells me that not everyone thinks as you do. I'm a 35 year Private Pilot ASEL with instrument airplane. I have seen helicopters using the opposite pattern many, many times over the years. I don't think I've ever seen helicopters using the same pattern as airplanes. I've always been told (by CFIs and others) that helos use the opposite pattern to "avoid the flow of fixed-wing traffic". I have always thought it was stupid because it puts two aircraft on a collision course.
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As I said before, it’s not avoiding the flow at all. If you end up on final or the runway, you are IN the flow. Or downwind the wrong way for that matter.
 
Stupid things shouldn’t even be allowed at airports. Too dangerous for others.

 
That in TJIG my hometown 'drome! Good times.
 
hindsight2020 said:
That in TJIG my hometown 'drome! Good times.
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Graduated flight school with a guy who was stationed there. Not sure if they have UH-72s at TJIG or not but he departed there back in 2010 for a drug mission. Crashed off shore in bad wx and killed everyone. Was like the first accident in that unit since 1978. Unfortunately was the first fatal for the Lakota as well.
 
Velocity173 said:
Graduated flight school with a guy who was stationed there. Not sure if they have UH-72s at TJIG or not but he departed there back in 2010 for a drug mission. Crashed off shore in bad wx and killed everyone. Was like the first accident in that unit since 1978. Unfortunately was the first fatal for the Lakota as well.
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according to my latest count, yeah 72s, and a single C-12 on a detachment. The ramp location hasn't changed. I still remember as a kid watching the Hueys on the ramp when the adjoining property was still a govt office cluster (today the grounds hold the PR Convention Center).

Looks like the the 60s left a while back. The ANG side lost their flying mission outright at TJSJ (SJU) in 2019. The mil aviation footprint these days down there is pretty scant.
 
hindsight2020 said:
according to my latest count, yeah 72s, and a single C-12 on a detachment. The ramp location hasn't changed. I still remember as a kid watching the Hueys on the ramp when the adjoining property was still a govt office cluster (today the grounds hold the PR Convention Center).

Looks like the the 60s left a while back. The ANG side lost their flying mission outright at TJSJ (SJU) in 2019. The mil aviation footprint these days down there is pretty scant.
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Were the A-7s / F-16s based out of there?
 
Salty said:
As I said before, it’s not avoiding the flow at all. If you end up on final or the runway, you are IN the flow. Or downwind the wrong way for that matter.
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Unfortunately, the bad habits are never corrected because most military instructors have little or no civil aviation experience and don't realize the pattern is depicted to avoid overflight of hazards and usually houses.

I started life as a civil airplane pilot and instructor and was shocked at hearing the idiotic ideas espoused by helicopter pilots when I became a military instructor. There is very little awareness of airport operations at civil airports among them because the focus of their training is on tactical operations. Believe me, I have seen some horrendous rotorwash incidents that were totally avoidable.

Since most of my helicopter time is in a very large, heavy helicopter (CH-47), I am extremely aware of the effects of 90+ MPH wind on itty bitty airplanes and all of the airport operations we do that requires a runway are done in the fixed wing pattern to fit in with the flow of any other aircraft that can be disturbed or damaged by our rotorwash. We don't hover anywhere near an active runway and land if there is an airplane in our proximity.

I have made approaches and departures to the parking areas of very large international airports by going straight up and down to eliminate hovering. Memphis tower thanked me for getting out of his airport by climbing out of his airspace and avoiding all his movement areas. I did an arrival into Phoenix once by flying low level between the final approaches of the parallel runways and breaking off to the ramp at the fence.

Everyone should watch Ned Parks' video on avoiding helicopter rotorwash. He gave that presentation at OSH and has given it many time at all the usual aviation gatherings.
 
Velocity173 said:
Were the A-7s / F-16s based out of there?
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Not TJIG (too small a runway). The 156th FW/AW/WG was always at SJU. Yes, A-7s then 16s, then E model scrap Herks, then WC-130 even bigger POS herks, then the fatal in Savannah, then nothing.
 
Salty said:
91.126b(2)



To me this is just not thought out. If they land on the same runway then they aren't avoiding the flow of fixed-wing aircraft, are they? So to pretend like this is fixing anything is ignoring reality. If they are landing on a taxiway (helicopter) or grassy area (parachute), then I agree, but if they are using the same runway as fixed-wing aircraft, they should freaking fly the same flow!

One airport I go to occasionally has trikes and gyros and they all fly at different heights close patterns, and it just makes things worse. It does NOT improve safety at all.

This weekend we had a helicopter practicing on our runway, doing right pattern and hovering on the end of the runway for ages. Very irritating, but the right pattern just made it harder to figure out what was going on, it did NOT improve safety in any way.

/rant
Click to expand...

I have the opposite view. The only time that there is a real collision hazard is when both aircraft are going the same way. The aircraft in front will not be able to see the one to its 6 and the other aircraft may not be able to see an aircraft that is being over taken due to either an altitude difference and high wing VS low wing. When on base leg, I would rather be pointing at the traffic I need to avoid than having it in close formation behind me. Also an overtake is more likely when there are significant differences in performance.
 
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