I got reported to the FAA (not a ******* Satire)

midlifeflyer said:
It is if you want to misread it to say there is a requirement to talk to them. Of course, that's not what it means.

"I can't talk to you. I need to send you an email, you need to respond that you have received and understand it and then you can call me back and we can talk"​

Actual translation:
We are investigating this complaint. I'd like to speak to you about this, but our procedures under the PBR do not allow me to until I send you specific information about the PBR, (including your right not to talk with me at all). I can sent it to you by email. And, if you want to talk to me you need to reply indicating you received and understand it.​
Click to expand...

Exactly.
 
PPC1052 said:
Exactly.
Click to expand...
BTW, here it is from the FAA Order governing ASIs:

14-1-3-5 USING THE CP AND PBR BROCHURE.
***
C. Inquiries and Investigative Uses. Brochure use applicability for PBR notification is described in general here and in detail in paragraphs 14‑1‑3‑7 through 14‑1‑3‑15.​
***
(2) Telephonic and Written Contact Additional Considerations. If initial investigative contact is made with an airman over the telephone (such as after AFS notification of a possible pilot deviation (PD) by air traffic personnel), AFS personnel should verify the airman’s current email or mailing address, provide an electronic or hard copy of the Brochure, and validate that the airman received the Brochure before substantively discussing the issue or event. The brief description requirement of subparagraph 14‑1‑3‑5C1)a) may be entered in the body text of the email or letter in lieu of including the description on the Brochure. Email and letter requests must include the Privacy Act Notice in Appendix 14‑2, Privacy Act Notice.​
 
vman said:
Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure

unreasonable search and seizure

Search and seizure

fruit of the poisonous tree

Miranda Warning

i'm thinking this is proper notice or due process?

iow, a voice on a phone call claims 'i can't talk to you, you need to respond/comply, then you can call me to discuss
Click to expand...

With all the scam callers these days, why are we accepting phone calls from "the FAA" and then clicking on attachments they send in an email?
 
vman said:
Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure

unreasonable search and seizure

Search and seizure

fruit of the poisonous tree

Miranda Warning

i'm thinking this is proper notice or due process?

iow, a voice on a phone call claims 'i can't talk to you, you need to respond/comply, then you can call me to discuss
Click to expand...

The FAA, the police, or anybody else is not required to give you any anti-incrimination warnings under Miranda unless you are being questioned while in custody. What they'll almost always do is advise you that this is a voluntary situation (which means they can avoid the warning and lull you into incriminating yourself without warning).

There's been no search and seizure. Asking someone for voluntary interviews is neither. Until something illegal with has happened there's no "poison tree" to eat fruit from. That's a nice set of legal phrases above, but totally inapplicable.
 
ya but....they do have a hidden motivator......re-testing you for every cert you possess. :eek:
 
midlifeflyer said:
BTW, here it is from the FAA Order governing ASIs:

14-1-3-5 USING THE CP AND PBR BROCHURE.
***
C. Inquiries and Investigative Uses. Brochure use applicability for PBR notification is described in general here and in detail in paragraphs 14‑1‑3‑7 through 14‑1‑3‑15.​
***
(2) Telephonic and Written Contact Additional Considerations. If initial investigative contact is made with an airman over the telephone (such as after AFS notification of a possible pilot deviation (PD) by air traffic personnel), AFS personnel should verify the airman’s current email or mailing address, provide an electronic or hard copy of the Brochure, and validate that the airman received the Brochure before substantively discussing the issue or event. The brief description requirement of subparagraph 14‑1‑3‑5C1)a) may be entered in the body text of the email or letter in lieu of including the description on the Brochure. Email and letter requests must include the Privacy Act Notice in Appendix 14‑2, Privacy Act Notice.​
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http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.14,Ch1,Sec3
NOTE: The PBR requires that airmen be provided with written notification. Verbal notification does not comply with the law. See paragraph 14‑1‑3‑7 for specific instructions on use of the Brochure to meet the written notification requirement.

<snip>

14-1-3-7 WHEN WRITTEN PBR NOTIFICATION IS REQUIRED. Except for instances when giving the required notification under the PBR would threaten the integrity of the investigation as described in paragraph 14‑1‑3‑13, AFS personnel provide timely written notification of investigation in these circumstances:
A. Providing the PBR Notification via the Brochure. When AFS personnel first inquire into the nature and circumstances of apparent noncompliance, they provide the Brochure to the airman. AFS personnel note the nature of the investigation in the space provided in the Brochure. AFS personnel provide the Brochure even if they initially expect to resolve the noncompliance with compliance action. AFS personnel provide the Brochure to encourage open and transparent discussion under CP, to inform the airman of his or her rights under PBR, and to preserve FAA legal rights to use the information collected if enforcement action is later determined necessary.

<snip>

14-1-3-15 ACCESS TO AIR TRAFFIC DATA UNDER THE PBR. The PBR requires that the Administrator provide an individual who is the subject of an investigation described in paragraph 14‑1‑3‑3 “with timely access to any air traffic data in the possession of the Federal Aviation Administration that would facilitate the individual’s ability to productively participate in a proceeding relating to” the investigation. In addition, an individual may obtain air traffic data in the possession of a government contractor that provides operational services to the FAA by submitting a request to the Administrator that describes the facility at which such information is located and identifies the date on which such information was generated. When that happens, the PBR requires the Administrator to request the air traffic data from the government contractor and upon receiving such information provide it to the individual in a timely manner. By law, AFS personnel must provide all air traffic data as described in subparagraph A below (from both FAA and contractor sources) in a timely manner when requested by an airman. In the interest of transparency and as a matter of policy, AFS personnel will provide all air traffic data in the investigating inspector’s possession when sending an LOI to an airman. The data may be provided to the airman’s counsel if the counsel requests it on behalf of the airman. A description of each air traffic data package provided and the date of any requests for data must be recorded in the appropriate PTRS record (such as a PD activity record) that led to the collection of the data.
NOTE: See Volume 7, Chapter 1, Section 2 for additional information on data collection from FAA and contractor sources and coordination with air traffic.

<snip>

14-1-3-13 DELAYING NOTIFICATION UNDER THE PBR. The Administrator may delay timely written notification required under the Act if he or she determines that such notification may threaten the integrity of the investigation. Notification must be provided once the threat to the integrity of the investigation has ceased. If time permits, an inspector should consult with and get the concurrence of his or her Front Line Manager (FLM) and FAA enforcement counsel before deciding to delay providing the written notifications under this exception. Examples of circumstances where the integrity of the investigation could be threatened by providing written notification to an airman include:
A. Destruction/Concealment. Providing the required notification under the PBR presents a risk of:
1) Destruction of evidence.
2) Concealment of evidence.
NOTE: Once the risk of destruction or concealment of evidence has passed, the Administrator must provide the required written notification.

B. Death or Serious Bodily Harm. Giving the required notification under the PBR might lead to a risk of death or serious bodily injury, or destruction of property.
NOTE: Once the risk has abated, the Administrator must provide the required written notification.

NOTE: Any inspector invoking the exception to delay providing an individual with written notification of investigation must explain the basis for doing so in the related PTRS record and in Section B of the EIR, if one is required.

<snip>

14-1-3-5 USING THE CP AND PBR BROCHURE.

A. Availability of the Brochure. AFS offices must ensure that color printed copies of the Brochure (Appendix 14‑1) are available to inspectors for immediate use while conducting surveillance and throughout the normal course of business. Offices may print and distribute copies of the Brochure and direct the public to find it at www.faa.gov/go/cp.
B. Safety Promotion Activities and Routine Airman Contacts. AFS encourages frequent sharing of the Brochure to educate airmen and other interested parties about the FAA CP. All personnel are encouraged to provide the Brochure during appropriate contacts with airmen in the course of other duties such as in FAA facility waiting areas, at public aviation events, and at any other opportunity to share safety or policy information. When the Brochure is shared for routine or safety promotion purposes, the space inside the form to describe the apparent noncompliance remains blank. There is no AFS national requirement to document these uses of the Brochure in the Program Tracking and Reporting Subsyste
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Rushie said:
With all the scam callers these days, why are we accepting phone calls from "the FAA" and then clicking on attachments they send in an email?
Click to expand...
Yes, this!

When I first read this, I thought it was going to go down a social engineering path whereby Bryan’s computer was hacked.
 
Salty said:
You can keep the right to privacy, but you have no right to an airman’s cert.
Click to expand...
We do, however, have a right to due process, a fact that has sometimes escaped the FAA.
 
PPC1052 said:
Reading Bryan's post, it seem that the inspector was merely asking for an acknowledgement that he had been provided with a description of his rights as required under PBOR. I see no harm in responding to an e-mail merely confirming that you got it. If you aren't willing to do that, that just goes to show a non-compliant attitude and won't help you in the long run.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's what one of my supervisors tried to imply after I failed to respond to an email. He wanted me to prep some electrical equipment for a job to be performed later by the night crew.

Well, I never received his original email and the next day he sent another email to me (with my entire unit on the copy line) insinuating that I'm not doing my job (a job that I've been doing without issue for nearly two decades) and advising me (and my co-workers) to read our emails at the start of each tour.

After proving to him that not only was I not receiving his "GROUP" emails, others weren't either.
It was determined that the person who setup the "group email" used an incorrect address!
So, after defending myself, I raised the question. Why would you rely on an email as the sole means of communication for such critical task?

The Physical Plant Manager agreed with me and now, they are required to not only send an email, but also print out a hard copy and physically drop it off and leave it in our box, along with our work-orders and other important paperwork. ;)
 
redtail said:
Yeah, that's what one of my supervisors tried to imply after I failed to respond to an email. He wanted me to prep some electrical equipment for a job to be performed later by the night crew.

Well, I never received his original email and the next day he sent another email to me (with my entire unit on the copy line) insinuating that I'm not doing my job (a job that I've been doing without issue for nearly two decades) and advising me (and my co-workers) to read our emails at the start of each tour.

After proving to him that not only was I not receiving his "GROUP" emails, others weren't either.
It was determined that the person who setup the "group email" used an incorrect address!
So, after defending myself, I raised the question. Why would you rely on an email as the sole means of communication for such critical task?

The Physical Plant Manager agreed with me and now, they are required to not only send an email, but also print out a hard copy and physically drop it off and leave it in our box, along with our work-orders and other important paperwork. ;)
Click to expand...


Yeah, that's completely different. Here the inspector said, "Hey, I'm going to send you an e-mail. Look for it and acknowledge you got it and understand it before we can talk." If he didn't get it, then he can let the inspector know and they can work out the logistics. That's the whole point.
 
midlifeflyer said: ↑
It is if you want to misread it to say there is a requirement to talk to them. Of course, that's not what it means.

"I can't talk to you. I need to send you an email, you need to respond that you have received and understand it and then you can call me back and we can talk"

Actual translation:
We are investigating this complaint. I'd like to speak to you about this, but our procedures under the PBR do not allow me to until I send you specific information about the PBR, (including your right not to talk with me at all). I can sent it to you by email. And, if you want to talk to me you need to reply indicating you received and understand it.
Click to expand...
PPC1052 said:
Exactly.
Click to expand...
+1
 
vman said:
Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure

unreasonable search and seizure

Search and seizure

fruit of the poisonous tree

Miranda Warning

i'm thinking this is proper notice or due process?

iow, a voice on a phone call claims 'i can't talk to you, you need to respond/comply, then you can call me to discuss
Click to expand...
Remember that with administrative law a lot of those things don't apply. The only thing that applies is whether they followed FAA procedures.
 
PPC1052 said:
Yeah, that's completely different. Here the inspector said, "Hey, I'm going to send you an e-mail. Look for it and acknowledge you got it and understand it before we can talk." If he didn't get it, then he can let the inspector know and they can work out the logistics. That's the whole point.
Click to expand...
IF you are who you say you are and you can't talk now, you have my address. Send me a hard copy o_O
Certified mail.

I'm under no obligation to "look for" or acknowledge your email!
 
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then again, op complied & responded, to hear..
He says this:

"a member of an aviation related facebook group took a screenshot of a comment you made and sent it to the FAA so we need to investigate"

I asked "what was the comment?"

Someone posted on a Texas pilots facebook group asking "can someone recommend a local CFI to teach me to fly?"

I responded:

"I can teach you but I am not a CFI so it won't be legal which is why I have a cash only, under the table policy but I'm good :) "

Someone sent that to the FAA and now I have to take my logbooks, cert, medical, etc to the local FSDO and some explain that I am not receiving money for flight instruction.
Click to expand...

so, looks like a complaint/screenshot from a simple exchange on a facebook page, then responding to a voice over the phone, can then result in a bring your stuff chit chat

unbelievable ..but hey, guv ..they have shown what they will pursue & how

i bet lotsa folks are tuned in for what's next
 
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So, if I posted something like..... "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you", on Fakebook and some idiot felt the need to take a screenshot and send it to the police. You mean to tell me they would waste time and money investigating that as an actual (or potential) threat of murder?
Unbelievable!

Glad I got off FB a long time ago:rolleyes:

Oh, and I stopped answering calls from unknown numbers years ago (after receiving daily robocalls). If it's important, leave me a message.
 
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Palmpilot said:
We do, however, have a right to due process, a fact that has sometimes escaped the FAA.
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Not really. Unless it's "denial of life, liberty, or property", which as much as we wish, does not cover a pilots license.

Anyway, they are giving him due process. He is being given a forum to present his side of the story before any action is taken. That, by definition, is due process.

Denying him due process would be revoking his certificate until he proves his innocence.
 
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PPC1052 said:
Yeah, that's completely different. Here the inspector said, "Hey, I'm going to send you an e-mail. Look for it and acknowledge you got it and understand it before we can talk." If he didn't get it, then he can let the inspector know and they can work out the logistics. That's the whole point.
Click to expand...

the point for me is what are the requirements, if any, for due process here?

then what are your rights after you've responded & complied to a phone call, have u given up basic rights then?

then you are informed to bring in your goods for a chit chat
 
Salty said:
Not really. Unless it's "denial of life, liberty, or property", which as much as we wish, does not cover a pilots license.

Anyway, they are giving him due process. He is being given a forum to present his side of the story before any action is taken. That, by definition, is due process.

Denying him due process would be revoking his certificate until he proves his innocence.
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why does the initial email start with invoking the privacy act notice ?

he also sez, i can't talk to you unless you comply?
He says "I can't talk to you. I need to send you an email, you need to respond that you have received and understand it and then you can call me back and we can talk"
Click to expand...
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/i-got-reported-to-the-faa-not-a-satire.114495/
 
vman said:
why does the initial email start with invoking the privacy act notice ?

he also sez, i can't talk to you unless you comply?
Click to expand...
You seriously don't understand that? Or are you just being obtuse?
 
sez written notice, i guess via email?
shall provide
timely, written notification to an individual who is the subject
of an investigation relating to the approval, denial, suspension,
modification, or revocation of an airman certificate under
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Salty said:
You seriously don't understand that? Or are you just being obtuse?
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you commented then i quoted & asked a few questions,

i'd say due process starts from the get go & from the first post info here, including
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-faa-not-a-satire.114495/page-10#post-2620129
& throughout
Salty said:
Not really. Unless it's "denial of life, liberty, or property", which as much as we wish, does not cover a pilots license.

Anyway, they are giving him due process. He is being given a forum to present his side of the story before any action is taken. That, by definition, is due process.

Denying him due process would be revoking his certificate until he proves his innocence.
Click to expand...
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/due process

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_due_process

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substantive_due_process
 
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PPC1052 said:
Reading Bryan's post, it seem that the inspector was merely asking for an acknowledgement that he had been provided with a description of his rights as required under PBOR. I see no harm in responding to an e-mail merely confirming that you got it. If you aren't willing to do that, that just goes to show a non-compliant attitude and won't help you in the long run.
Click to expand...

My point is that it was a phone call from a random individual and a random email. There’s nothing about either a phone call or an email which can confirm that they are, in fact, originating from the FAA. Both the phone call and the email could be from someone trying to yank 6PC’s chain. The contact should be by certified mail. To me it could be like all these spam phone calls purportedly from the IRS.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
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PPC1052 said:
Yeah, that's completely different. Here the inspector said, "Hey, I'm going to send you an e-mail. Look for it and acknowledge you got it and understand it before we can talk." If he didn't get it, then he can let the inspector know and they can work out the logistics. That's the whole point.
Click to expand...

How does one know that the “inspector” really is an inspector who works for the FAA? I get phone calls all the time from people claiming to be with the IRS saying they’ll sic the cops on me if I don’t pay up. I’d tend to view a random phone call out of the blue from someone claiming to be from the FAA with a similar amount of skepticism.

My response to someone claiming to be from the FAA who said they couldn’t talk with me but wanted to send me an email would be something along the lines of either send me a certified mail on FAA letterhead or maybe to ask for their extension at the FSDO and I would call them back at the publicly available FSDO number. No way would I have gone the phone call email route.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
jimhorner said:
My point is that it was a phone call from a random individual and a random email. There’s nothing about either a phone call or an email which can confirm that they are, in fact, originating from the FAA. Both the phone call and the email could be from someone trying to yank 6PC’s chain. The contact should be by certified mail. To me it could be like all these spam phone calls purportedly from the IRS.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...
nevertheless, op responded & complied,

next thing you know, bring your goods for a chit chat..
He says this:

"a member of an aviation related facebook group took a screenshot of a comment you made and sent it to the FAA so we need to investigate"

I asked "what was the comment?"

Someone posted on a Texas pilots facebook group asking "can someone recommend a local CFI to teach me to fly?"

I responded:

"I can teach you but I am not a CFI so it won't be legal which is why I have a cash only, under the table policy but I'm good :) "

Someone sent that to the FAA and now I have to take my logbooks, cert, medical, etc to the local FSDO and some explain that I am not receiving money for flight instruction.
Click to expand...

lets not forget the faa's rational here, all you need to do apparently, is comment in a facebook page
He says this:

"a member of an aviation related facebook group took a screenshot of a comment you made and sent it to the FAA so we need to investigate"
Click to expand...
 
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good bet they monitor this site also, or someone may just take a snapshot of a comment & complain
 
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Salty said:
Not really. Unless it's "denial of life, liberty, or property", which as much as we wish, does not cover a pilots license.
Click to expand...
Yes really. The freedom to fly fits well within the definition of liberty:

1 : the quality or state of being free:


a : the power to do as one pleases


b : freedom from physical restraint


c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic (see despot sense 1) control


d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges


e : the power of choice ​

2a : a right or immunity enjoyed by prescription or by grant : privilege


b : permission especially to go freely within specified limits was given the liberty of the house


3 : an action going beyond normal limits: such as


a : a breach of etiquette or propriety : familiarity took undue liberties with a stranger


b : risk, chance took foolish liberties with his health


c : a violation of rules or a deviation from standard practice took liberties in the way he played the game


d : a distortion of fact The movie takes many liberties with the actual events. ​

4 : a short authorized absence from naval duty usually for less than 48 hours​
Anyway, they are giving him due process. He is being given a forum to present his side of the story before any action is taken. That, by definition, is due process.

Denying him due process would be revoking his certificate until he proves his innocence.
Click to expand...

I agree that the FAA is, so far, following due process in this case.
 
Many years ago I got a call where the caller ID said FAA GOV. The chap on the phone asked for me by name and said he heard that I overhauled engines. Who Me ?? I said--that is a LOT more involved than anything I'd want to get involved in. I sent him away---post haste.

He turned out to be an airplane owner who worked at the FSDO. He turned out to be a real nice guy who wound up spending WAY more than I would have nicked him for.
He shoulda called from home. :oops:
 
Can someone post when Bryan has an end-result? (a new thread) Can't keep up with this one.
 
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