How to have an incident

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Yes, I analyzed the entire event including the activities of the prior days honestly. He nodded, agreed with my assessment and said, "Well, at least you won't be doing that again."

He has your certificate for the foreseeable future so that's pretty easy for him to say.

You give the impression that the FAA inspectors are out to get people for mistakes, you're not correct.

Bob Hoover might disagree with you.


Their main intent is to make sure you you learned the proper things from the mistake so you are safer going forward. They aren't like your local police who are looking for ways to generate revenue by writing tickets and assessing fines. They can't put me in jail for a gear up. Your paranoia is more concern than my incident.

Of course, you're saying that as a fresh fish never having been in this situation before with myself having gone through the entire process. While I earlier commended you on the trust you displayed... it never hurts to be careful. You can't take back certain things you've done already... and not consulting an attorney is just plain wreckless.

Be aware, the caution I issued you had nothing to do with you admitting you forgot to put the gear down, the caution I issued you was admitting you knowingly flew while extremely fatigued. Big difference. Seriously, I'd delete this thread.

I was given all the information to make an informed decision by the FAA guy, I was not forced or coerced. I could not have done it in 2 weeks very well because I will be in Italy by Monday night and not return until likely end of October.

My aviation attorney I've never actually meet even though he helped me through my entire accident. We did everything either on the phone or e-mail. That would have worked just as well in Italy as it did in Michigan.

Anyways... this is going in a bad direction. You've been though enough and I don't need to hassle you.
 
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If you aren't a pro the license suspension thing is mostly ego with some being in 'trouble' guilt.
 
If you aren't a pro the license suspension thing is mostly ego with some being in 'trouble' guilt.

Even if you're not a 'pro' it's not career breaking. I've known quite a few guys with accidents/incidents/violations/suspensions who got back to business-as-usual. It's hardly the end of the world.


I think more than the FAA process, the insurance process will suck. The FAA is fairly cut and dry, the insurance company will make you fight for it. And then they'll drop you when/if they pay out. **** happens. Glad you're all OK.
 
If anyone thinks a functioning gear horn is a surefire guarantee for deploying gear, think again. The guy to the right in the Tobago is an instructor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5McECUtM8fw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YffmapFxt0M


I don't understand it. How are these people ignoring these sounds?
In the first clip, maybe ANR muted it.

I am a newish pilot so maybe I am still hypersensitive to the beeps my plane makes.

I also don't have retracts but I cant imagine not acknowledging an alert the plane is giving me.

Not saying it cant happen or I won't ever be a victim, just at this point, watching those videos it somewhat shocking to me.
 
I think more than the FAA process, the insurance process will suck.

No, or at least not in my case. Chartis waived all my deductibles and I had a $85,000 payoff within 6 weeks. The insurance companies are regulated so you've got some oversight... the FAA... that can go either way so it's really best to be careful what you say/do.

My renewal (if I had bought another PA32) came back with a $100 increase and I had no issues at all insuring a twin 2 years later with a grand total of 10 hours ME time. They did require 10 hours dual. My accident had almost no impact on my rates and Chartis went out of their way to offer to re-insure me.
 
Thanks for posting this. This is another really really glaring reminder that accidents can happen to anybody regardless of experience and that it only takes one time for your discipline to break down. Thankfully nobody got hurt. At least you're going to get your money's worth out of the thousands of dollars you've paid over the years in insurance premiums...

I have 1500+ hrs in retracts starting with my dual long cross country in my PP training, not once have I forgotten the gear. It's a matter of discipline rather than ego.
 
Hey, Henning, I just saw this thread.

Mannnnnnn...that sucks.

Nice job post incident and nice job ignoring and/of fending off the two PoA a*holes.

Keep your chin up, man.
 
Damn, sorry to hear Henning. I have followed your posts here and on the red board for many years. If someone with that level of experience can have an accident, I wonder when I will. It is very humbling. Hope all works out okay.
 
I don't understand it. How are these people ignoring these sounds?
In the first clip, maybe ANR muted it.

I am a newish pilot so maybe I am still hypersensitive to the beeps my plane makes.

I also don't have retracts but I cant imagine not acknowledging an alert the plane is giving me.

Not saying it cant happen or I won't ever be a victim, just at this point, watching those videos it somewhat shocking to me.
People get distracted and sometimes your brain tunes things out. It does happen.
 
And that was no disrespect to OP. without an alarm I would do it too.
I have landed lean, no flaps, etc. Without an alarm of some sort, I would likely do this at some point.
 
I don't understand it. How are these people ignoring these sounds?
There might be many reasons. Distraction, fatigue, task overload due to getting behind the plane, many things. Another possibility is getting used to the sound. In my retract, the gear horn comes on when the throttle is retarded to roughly 20" MP at sea level (it's controlled by the throttle position, so the MP will vary depending on altitude). Since I typically add approach flaps to slow down and then pull back to 18" for descent, I typically hear the horn A LOT.* I have even had people try to remind me of it when making calls approaching the pattern. VFR, my procedure is to put the gear down when level on downwind, or on passing through pattern altitude if entering on a base or final leg. IFR, I put the gear down at the FAF. So far I have not even come close to forgetting it, but knock on wood.



*Yes, I've tried to have it adjusted down to 16", but the adjustment lasts maybe 5 hours and then it goes back to the way it was. This is a wake-up call to bite the bullet and replace whatever needs replacing.
 
Mine's set to 13", about where the throttle is set on short final. Mine rarely goes off unless I'm practicing power off stalls, and when it does there ain't no missing it.

That's not to say it'll prevent a gear up, but I can't say I wasn't warned.
 
There might be many reasons. Distraction, fatigue, task overload due to getting behind the plane, many things. Another possibility is getting used to the sound. In my retract, the gear horn comes on when the throttle is retarded to roughly 20" MP at sea level (it's controlled by the throttle position, so the MP will vary depending on altitude). Since I typically add approach flaps to slow down and then pull back to 18" for descent, I typically hear the horn A LOT.* I have even had people try to remind me of it when making calls approaching the pattern. VFR, my procedure is to put the gear down when level on downwind, or on passing through pattern altitude if entering on a base or final leg. IFR, I put the gear down at the FAF. So far I have not even come close to forgetting it, but knock on wood.



*Yes, I've tried to have it adjusted down to 16", but the adjustment lasts maybe 5 hours and then it goes back to the way it was. This is a wake-up call to bite the bullet and replace whatever needs replacing.

I'm quite concerned about training away the gear alarm. My rule is that if the alarm goes off, it gets silenced immediately, either by adding throttle or extending the gear. But the airplanes I fly go off at 12" or 20 flaps.

The only exception is a simulated engine failure at altitude, but I don't usually do those in retracts.
 
Hey, Henning, I just saw this thread.

Mannnnnnn...that sucks.

Nice job post incident and nice job ignoring and/of fending off the two PoA a*holes.

Keep your chin up, man.

I've really never figured out the great fear of the FAA. Are there examples of where an inspector has gone overboard? Yes, is it common? Not in the slightest. People pick one or two examples in the past decades out of the hundreds of occurrences per year and condemn every inspector. I know over a dozen inspectors and none of them are 'out to get people'. It doesn't even make sense for them because there's nothing in it for them except extra work and a potential lawsuit. Their mandate is to see that you are not a danger to others.

The biggest issue they look at is the human factor issue for this. My thoughts on this, which were confirmed by the Inspector is to be honest and assessing of your mistakes, because no one is error proof; what they are looking to see is if you have learned what you needed to learn.
 
I know you know that, but his accident happened on Tuesday and he is a layman. If he waited 2 weeks he still could have done that and it would have been a decision based on knowledge. The man didn't even consult an aviation attorney.

Jeff, I realize you won't believe this, but altho Henning does not have a law degree (that I know of. I've yet to discover something in which he's not extremely knowledgeable and competent), he is definitely NOT a layman and NOT unfamiliar with FAA regs, written as well as the implications.
 
Never having gone through anything I have little frame of reference. But - there's a reason we have a PBOR. The trouble I envision under my tin foil hat is that one is at the mercy of the attitude of the FAA hats. The first guy may be very easygoing, and professional, the next guy may have the stick buried so far up it's got hair gel on the end. You just never know.
 
Never having gone through anything I have little frame of reference. But - there's a reason we have a PBOR. The trouble I envision under my tin foil hat is that one is at the mercy of the attitude of the FAA hats. The first guy may be very easygoing, and professional, the next guy may have the stick buried so far up it's got hair gel on the end. You just never know.

I have the original guy's cell phone number, I can always go back to him, he as assured me it will all go well given my attitude. I have no reason to distrust him, and not being the paranoid type and having experience with enough other inspectors, I am not particularly concerned he is not being honest with me. Here's a thing to consider, these people work within a bureaucratic mire. It is more work for them to be *******s than not. It is in their best interest for everything to go smoothly so they can just check their boxes, hand me back my certificate, and close the file. If they want to revoke my certificate, it opens a whole new box of paperwork they have to file not to mention getting sued. The inspector tried to get me my 709 ride this week so it could be closed and done, that was not possible. Due to my schedule, had I kept my certificate in my pocket, come end of September due to the operating rules he is under he would have had to start a suspension proceeding which would have caused him extra paperwork an me a suspension, so he offered the option of putting my certificate on deposit at the FSDO which eliminated any need for another word to be said on the file until it was convenient to my schedule to book the 709 which he says will consist of a discussion on human factors which I had already demonstrated to him I had an excellent grasp of, and a few runs around the pattern not forgetting to drop the gear, and it would be done.

I have not been given any reason to distrust this inspector, nor does anything in my 25 years in aviation give me reason to believe that the process will work any differently than he claimed. I do not judge an organization and the people in it by the actions of a couple in a few instances. Where people run into trouble in these events as I have seen is when they take on an adversarial position and make it difficult for the inspector to clear the file. This is not criminal law, I didn't get anyone killed, I did not lose control of the aircraft, I did not make the situation worse by more bad decisions when the event was occurring. I looked at the entire situation, analyzed it, found my mistakes as well as the contributing factors and owned my errors. THAT is what the FAA is looking for s they can close their file. I guess having 9:00 break and lunch at the taco wagon in Long Beach with the guys from the LGB FSDO every day for 2 years has left me less than afraid of, and more understanding of, the FAA, their job, and how they go about it.
 
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Just seeing this thread. Would just like to add, "nicely played". Nicely played from start to the present. Thanks for the insight.
... yeah, fatigue was the base link, the other biggie was not needing to slow down or descend until on base, contributing factor was no gear horn.
That's a concise summary.

The time zone jumping fatigue thing resonates with me. Pilots flying international routes must deal with it, some "road warriors" seem to thrive on it, I've always found it extremely difficult and mentally painful to deal with. No matter how much research is done, findings made and cures found, it just seems to be one of those things that's just not natural. No point here, just reflection.
I make a point of always performing a printed Pre-landing Checklist, in spite of the fact that on my Light Sport its only 3 items - seat belts, fuel pump and brake check.

And yet periodically I taxi clear of the runway and do my After Landing Checklist, only to find my fuel pump never got turned on.

I chastise myself for getting sloppy, but it still periodically happens.

I do not fly a retractable, but see how it can happen. One of my students, in spite of good habits I hope I instilled in him, managed to gear up a Mooney.

No one's perfect, least of all me. But if I were to assign a probable cause to this one the lack of a checklist would rank higher than fatigue, thought that's obviously a subjective evaluation.
Checklists are great tools. Standard procedures for standard operations are even better. Emergency procedures for emergencies are useful too. But flying into Oshkosh is not so easily dealt with.

My brush with an imminent gear up landing was while sailplane racing, an activity that compares well with Oshkosh arrivals. No matter how many procedures, rules, checklists or warning horns are in place, the unexpected happens and one's efforts to adapt can fail. In my case I took a tow into conditions that would not sustain soaring flight (think arriving at Osh with T-storm blocking the airport). Glider after glider launched, tried to hang on a nearby ridge before returning for a relight (think holding around the lake at Osh).

I decided during my tow to forego the ridge work and just return for a landing (think opting for Appleton instead of the hold). Instead of retracting my gear after tow release, I left it down for the planned landing (think massive break in SOP). I flew an abbreviated pattern, executed my landing checklist, actuated the gear, ignored the gear horn and turned short final. I was thankfully saved from embarrassment by someone else's ground crew who broke radio discipline and told me my gear was up on short final.

Oshkosh arrivals are well structured but tough on checklists, SOPs and even emergency procedures. Throw in some turbulence or a Bonanza flying 80knots and it will eat checklists for lunch. Enjoy the challenge but don't underestimate it.
I've known of many an airplane to land gear up with gear horns blaring the entire time - both military and civil ships. . . Not saying a good warning system is a bad thing; just saying it's not a panacea.
That's for sure.
I don't understand it. How are these people ignoring these sounds?
It's surprisingly easy. It just takes an unexpected break in normal operations to start the chain. I haven't watched those clips recently/yet but not even curious at this point because I know how easy it is.
I have no fear of the FAA or NTSB in this matter.
Bless you
 
Sorry about the airplane, Henning, but Trapper will have a story to tell his grandkids. :crazy:

FWIW, I agree with the way you are handling it regarding the FAA.
 
There might be many reasons. Distraction, fatigue, task overload due to getting behind the plane, many things. Another possibility is getting used to the sound. In my retract, the gear horn comes on when the throttle is retarded to roughly 20" MP at sea level (it's controlled by the throttle position, so the MP will vary depending on altitude). Since I typically add approach flaps to slow down and then pull back to 18" for descent, I typically hear the horn A LOT.* I have even had people try to remind me of it when making calls approaching the pattern. VFR, my procedure is to put the gear down when level on downwind, or on passing through pattern altitude if entering on a base or final leg. IFR, I put the gear down at the FAF. So far I have not even come close to forgetting it, but knock on wood.



*Yes, I've tried to have it adjusted down to 16", but the adjustment lasts maybe 5 hours and then it goes back to the way it was. This is a wake-up call to bite the bullet and replace whatever needs replacing.

I would highly recommend changing your ways. I was able to have the throttle adjusted on my 182RG when it was going off too high. Is your gear speed as high as the 182RG (140 for gear and 10* flaps, woop!)? I can usually descend at 140 no problem with the airplane clean. Unless I need to be slow for something I descend much higher than that. The fact you hear the horn frequently is NOT good. That will cause complacency to the horn... heck when my horn goes off for a few minutes (steep spirals) it eventually gets tired goes from horn to static. Gear ups suck, I don't want to see that pretty Cardinal of yours be the next victim.
 
Jeff, I realize you won't believe this, but altho Henning does not have a law degree (that I know of. I've yet to discover something in which he's not extremely knowledgeable and competent), he is definitely NOT a layman and NOT unfamiliar with FAA regs, written as well as the implications.

Then he should have known he didn't have to make a decision to voluntarily turn his pilot certificate in literally 2 day after the accident at a trade show under alot of duress. Which BTW might be a new record for the FAA generating a 44709 letter.... it took them 6 weeks after my accident to give me one after first telling me 2 days after my accident I likely wouldn't get one.

Decisions and statements are being made here that potentially can't be taken back, that just as easily could be made 2 weeks or 30 days from now. They very well may be the same decision.... I'm not saying he is wrong, just not acting prudent. I can't imagine turning in my pilot certificate without first consulting with an aviation attorney just to make sure all my i's and t's are dotted. But that's exactly what is claimed happened here.


The trouble I envision under my tin foil hat is that one is at the mercy of the attitude of the FAA hats. The first guy may be very easygoing, and professional, the next guy may have the stick buried so far up it's got hair gel on the end. You just never know.

Bingo. There is nothing wrong with being the FAA investigators buddy... but he, and not you, has the power to pull your ticket or at least make a good run at it. All I'm saying is be careful and always remember that.
 
Am I missing something?

Have the lawyers here actually read 49 USC 44709?

The FAA can order a reexamination for ANY reason or none at all, and then yank a certificate if it's unsatisfactory. No need to say a bloody word.
 
Decisions and statements are being made here that potentially can't be taken back, that just as easily could be made 2 weeks or 30 days from now.
Maybe you didn't read his post which said he would be out of the country. In any case, you made your point and he has decided on another course of action.
 
Sorry about the airplane, Henning, but Trapper will have a story to tell his grandkids. :crazy:

FWIW, I agree with the way you are handling it regarding the FAA.

Yeah, I'm not worried about the FAA, but Trapper will never have grand kids lol, that potential has been eliminated. On that subject though, Trapper has fully acclimated to his new surroundings, (took about 20 minutes) and he and the other two dogs are just best of buddies.
 
I have the original guy's cell phone number, I can always go back to him, he as assured me it will all go well given my attitude. I have no reason to distrust him, and not being the paranoid type and having experience with enough other inspectors, I am not particularly concerned he is not being honest with me.

Alright, hope for the best. My short experience was with the Ft Worth FSDO. The first guy I talked to about my crazy turbo on a Luscombe scheme was a stand-up guy. Seemed like a few test runs, a little paperwork and no prob, here's your STC. The second guy was a real male genitalia about it. Once I heard from him, I just slank away muttering.
 
Maybe you didn't read his post which said he would be out of the country.

And maybe you didn't read my post where I said e-mail and telephones work in Italy and in my accident every interaction I had with the FAA after that 2nd day was via the telephone or e-mail. And my aviation attorney? I never even meet the man face to face. It's not the 1950's anymore and even the FAA is using tools like e-mail and the telephone.

In any case, you made your point and he has decided on another course of action.

He did... and I'm not longer posting for the benefit of him... but his hubris in this matter is something no-one should emulate. Let me ask you... have you ever been in a accident and had to do a 44709? I have. There is no reason to rush things as he is doing and consulting an aviation attorney is something prudent and wise for anyone to do.
 
He did... and I'm not longer posting for the benefit of him... but his hubris in this matter is something no-one should emulate. Let me ask you... have you ever been in a accident and had to do a 44709? I have. There is no reason to rush things as he is doing and consulting an aviation attorney is something prudent and wise for anyone to do.
I have not had an accident but I have had a gear up (mechanical) and it was a non-issue. I have also had occasion to talk to the FAA because of things which were my fault. I admitted it, and they moved on without any action. All without a lawyer.
 
BTW, he stated that had I held a PPL rather than a CPL there would not have been a 709 ride due to my attitude and that I had already personally covered with him the factors that would have required review, but since I had a CPL and the potential for flying passengers for hire, he did not have that latitude due to the liability it places on the FAA.

As I've always said, the higher your rating, the higher the standard to which you are held.

Oh Jeff, you are confusing hubris with humility and integrity. Hubris would be me thinking I can beat the FAA, that isn't the issue here, I don't believe that FAA is out to get me and the best course of action is to give the FAA what they need to close the file by showing myself as knowingly fallible (the opposite of hubris) and introspective as to what happened and physically competent so I won't likely repeat the mistake and they can close their file. That is humility. Not trying to cover up my mistake is integrity.
 
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And maybe you didn't read my post where I said e-mail and telephones work in Italy and in my accident every interaction I had with the FAA after that 2nd day was via the telephone or e-mail. And my aviation attorney? I never even meet the man face to face. It's not the 1950's anymore and even the FAA is using tools like e-mail and the telephone.



He did... and I'm not longer posting for the benefit of him... but his hubris in this matter is something no-one should emulate. Let me ask you... have you ever been in a accident and had to do a 44709? I have. There is no reason to rush things as he is doing and consulting an aviation attorney is something prudent and wise for anyone to do.

Dude, henning made his decision, right or wrong, move on. Damn
 
Dude, henning made his decision, right or wrong, move on. Damn

Dude he is providing advice for others who may be interested. His advice is good. Agree Henning is a big boy and has the right to take whatever course of action he likes but Jeff's advice is good. Making a rash and rushed decision in the heat of the moment is NEVER a good idea.
 
Have the lawyers here actually read 49 USC 44709?

Not a lawyer but I am very familiar with 44709 having gone through the process myself.

The FAA can order a reexamination for ANY reason or none at all, and then yank a certificate if it's unsatisfactory. No need to say a bloody word.

Not accurate. While the bar is quite low, it does exist and isn't for "ANY reason". It has to relate to your competency as a pilot and there has to be a specific reason to suggest it is in question.

5-1419 BASIS OF REEXAMINATION TEST. When an inspector has sufficient reason to believe that an airman may not be qualified to exercise the privileges of a particular certificate or rating, a reexamination may be required. The inspector reaches this conclusion either through reliable reports, personal knowledge, or on the basis of evidence obtained through an accident, incident, or enforcement investigation.

There also is a particular process the FAA must go through which includes generating a letter before the ride. The process is detailed here:

http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v05 airman cert/chapter 07/05_007_001rev1.htm

Also the FAA will tell you the reason for the re-exam. The 44709 is nothing to fear, but it's also a specific process.
 
While a bit strident, I think Jeff makes a good point for others. We all make mistakes, we all(mostly) take responsibility. But that doesn't mean you have to be a punching bag for the Authorities. Hard to say what my attitude would be, but it sure appears to be an innocent mistake where property damage is the only loss. Doesn't mean the FAA can't turn it into - well, I don't know, NM standoff, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Wounded Knee, etc. The feds do have some history with this kind of behavior.

So, to others out there, pay heed before you fess up. You are not in control, you are not talking to the buddies at the local watering hole. You are talking to the federal govt. And with that, I will desist. The OP in this case, seems to be on solid ground, lets hope it doesn't liquefy.
 
Dude he is providing advice for others who may be interested. His advice is good. Agree Henning is a big boy and has the right to take whatever course of action he likes but Jeff's advice is good. Making a rash and rushed decision in the heat of the moment is NEVER a good idea.

Thank you for the kind words. I've been through this myself and taken a few lumps in the process.

I've continued posting because what I am seeing here is not the way most people should be handling this. Take your time and don't make decisions impacting your certificate by the side of the runway. Further, I'd be very hesitant to make public statements about the accident until the window for certificate action closes (which I believe is 6 months). And most important call up an aviation attorney. Love or hate AOPA, their legal services plan was cheap insurance.
 
I would highly recommend changing your ways. I was able to have the throttle adjusted on my 182RG when it was going off too high. Is your gear speed as high as the 182RG (140 for gear and 10* flaps, woop!)? I can usually descend at 140 no problem with the airplane clean. Unless I need to be slow for something I descend much higher than that. The fact you hear the horn frequently is NOT good. That will cause complacency to the horn... heck when my horn goes off for a few minutes (steep spirals) it eventually gets tired goes from horn to static. Gear ups suck, I don't want to see that pretty Cardinal of yours be the next victim.
What do you mean by "change my ways"? I know that having the gear horn blaring is a bad thing and could lead to a gear up, that's why I posted. Did you read the footnote at the end of my post? I've tried to have it adjusted. It doesn't stay adjusted. It wants to come on where it comes on now and no amount of adjusting is going to fix that. Something needs replacing or a thorough overhaul, but I don't know enough about the warning mechanism to know exactly what. That's the next thing I plan to have the crew here at KMPV look at, after they figure out why my low vacuum annunciator is on. ;)
 
Oh Jeff, you are confusing hubris with humility and integrity.

I looked up the definition before I said that... and the definition I was using for hubris was: "excessive self-confidence".

It had nothing to do with you "beating" the FAA or questioning your integrity... it was your confidence that short cutting or rushing the process would give the best outcome, your unconditional trust in a law enforcement investigator who you just meet 3 days ago and ignoring advice from people who had been in your shoes.

It's your choice of course, but for most people a better outcome would be to follow the process and to get advice from professionals to protect their interests. And that's mutually exclusive from humility and integrity.

BTW, I gave a far more detailed written statement to the FAA regarding my accident then you posted here... and yes even admitted some potential error even though the cause wasn't clear at the time... both in the statement and my interview the next day. The difference is I had council review the statement before I submitted it (he took nothing out) and I didn't go posting it on the internet immediately. Yet I still managed to make some mistakes along the way.

BTW, while I'm sure you won't listen, I'm again going to suggest you delete this thread. You admitting on here to knowingly taking off while extremely fatigued. That isn't forgetting to put down your gear... that is a potential certificate action. The place to make those kind of admissions is in your ASRP report... not on the internet 3 days after the accident. And you filed your ASRP report, right?
 
Can we all put our tinfoil hats away now..?
Two words: Bob Hoover.

If the FAA can ground the greatest pilot to have ever lived, on a whim, they can make Henning's life a living hell.

That's not tin foil. That's reality.
 
Certainly a lot to consider here, please keep us updated as to how it goes Henning.....
 
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