How to have an incident

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aw sh*t, sorry to hear but as you note, no one hurt, and the insurance will soften the blow
 
hindsight2020 said:
Dang brother, that plain sucks. I much enjoy your contributions to this board and it is humbling to me to realize that this can happen to anyone of us regardless of experience when the wrong combination of human factors are compounded on top of each other. I truly appreciate your thread in the interest of reminding us to keep a conservative approach to our recreational flying when it comes to human factors. At least that's the takeaway I get from your case study.

I'm embarrassed to ask since I should know this as an aircraft owner who has insurance of his airplane, but what elements of a prop strike lead to the insurance covering the repairs on engine components to the tune of a total writeoff?

My understanding of the aircraft insurance game is that the engine is yours when it explodes, it is only breaking the airframe that gets you covered. Do prop strikes really get you a new engine? How does the cost get pro-rated if you had high time engines for instance? How do they determine what parts they will cover and what parts they'll argue weren't part of the incident?
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The engines cannot be returned to service after a prop strike until the SB to those regards is completed, that basically ends up as a tear down and inspection anymore due to forward liability. It doesn't get one 'new engines', for that I have to kick in the difference. The difference here to your scenario is the engine was not the point of failure, it is covered damage resulting from the failure. Also you are not quite correct in your assumption. If your engine blows say to a broken valve, the valve being the initial point of failure is not covered, the rest of the engine damage resulting from the failed valve is covered damage.

The time on my engines is 188 and 400hrs, so the prorate is pretty small, but as I said, the key issue vis a vis the insurance company is forward liability of the engine. With no injuries involved, the insurance gets off cheap with $70k of exposure vs. $1MM on the liability end. It is in their best interest to mitigate further exposure by having a shop go through the engine to make sure there are no cracks in the crank and such which would be in line with the "Prudent Person" standard. if they would not, should a further incident or accident occur due to a failure of the crank, they are left exposed again to the $1MM as well as possible punitive damages. Regardless anything else though, they are liable for the costs of returning the aircraft to service in a condition representative of prior to the loss, or totaling it, to "make the insured whole" again.
 
stratobee said:
That sucks Henning. You know what they say, though: There are those that have landed gear up, and those that will. Sad about the plane, but good you got it out of the system and are unhurt. Now that leaves the rest of us to do the same at some point..

I've only forgotten once when I was very overloaded on an instruction flight in my old plane. The tower reminded me on final, which saved my bacon. In the Aerostar, it's almost impossible to slow down to pattern speed without getting them out (it's like a necessary speed brake) which helps to not forget them. Still, I'm sure it will happen one day.

Hope you can repair or get a new plane.
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Thanks, but I still don't believe that phrase.
 
Sorry, man. That's a hassle. I hope you had it insured enough for its value. If so, at least you won't have to worry about selling it anymore if they do total it. I know that's not much consolation. But maybe it's some.
 
PPC1052 said:
Sorry, man. That's a hassle. I hope you had it insured enough for its value. If so, at least you won't have to worry about selling it anymore if they do total it. I know that's not much consolation. But maybe it's some.
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Had it insured for what I was trying to sell it for.
 
It's always good to hear someone honestly putting the links in the chain together.
 
Matthew said:
It's always good to hear someone honestly putting the links in the chain together.
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That's what the NTSB guy said along with "It's really nice to talk with someone about their accident, I don't normally get to do that." I turned in my form to him yesterday while he was working the Breezy accident, shook his greasy hand and asked "Working the Breezy accident?" He replied, "Yeah, remember what I said about not getting to talk to accident pilots?":sad:
 
Henning said:
Everyone will make mistakes in flying though as in anything else. Personally I'm glad I made this one rather than one that left a smoking hole.
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:rofl:

Yea, that is a better outcome any day. :rofl:

Shake it off, get right with the FAA, get back in the saddle and ride.
 
Bummer. Your honesty and openness is commendable. Hope all the followup stuff goes smooth.
 
Henning, If it's not repaired, what is on the short list to replace it?
 
Wow. Glad you are OK, Henning, and it was just bending the airplane. And glad it seemed to go so well with the FAA. Good luck getting it all resolved with the insurance company!
 
Glad you're ok, sorry to hear about the airplane. **** happens.
 
Henning said:
When the FAA dude asked what happened I answered with 2 words, "I forgot". He liked that and the fact that I had not put the switch down or pulled the breaker and tried to bull**** some excuse.
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Short sweet and to the point. When I had my accident, they of course weren't there to see it, but I wrote everything up in detail within hours and sent them a copy they had before they visited the scene, which they appreciated.

Henning said:
I explained my analysis of the incident (due to the minimal level of damage it's an incident not an accident)
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Being I'm seeing talk of two engine teardowns and possibly scrapping the airplane, I'd not be so sure that's the case. Even is so, it's still going to turn up anyways to anyone doing due diligence if you sell the airplane so I wouldn't get too creative here if that was your goal. If you are worried about insurance, I only took a $100 a year hit with my accident, and mine was a fuel starvation issue which is potentially quite a bit more embarrassing then a wheels up. Anyways, accident vs. incident is explained in the 6120 which you should be filling out shortly:

https://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/forms/6120_1web_nopwx.pdf

Henning said:
I could identify and concluding that my primary and initial error was allowing myself to operate at such deep levels of fatigue.
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That statement, while honest, I'm not sure I'd be putting out there at this point in time as it proceeds the "forget" part. If nobody is out to get you at the FAA/NTSB you're likely fine... but in theory they could run with that as a cause. I'm saying this from experience. It's too late likely now as I know NTSB guys troll here (or you may have admitted this in your interview), but never forget, while they may be the nicest guy's in the world, they are law enforcement. Let me know if you want me to delete this part of my comment and I will.

Henning said:
Naturally I'll have to do a 44709 ride, that is where the only hitch in the matter comes in as the FAA needs to close these and have the ride done in 30-60 days otherwise they have to issue a suspension.
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Don't sweat this too much. They gave me an extension and also let me move mine to another office. What you want to do before the 709 is log some time with a flight instructor covering the things you think you screwed up on. It wont' forgive you from the 709, but it shows good faith to the FAA that you want to learn from the mistake. My 709, they only made me do the preflight part.. no air time, and the inspector was quite helpful and he considered it a learning experience... not a way to bust me.

Henning said:
He called the next day and said it wasn't and gave me the option of avoiding a suspension on my record (and him all the paper work and trying to send me certified mail which is impossible) of voluntarily surrendering my certificate at the FSDO pending completion of the ride which I can take at any FSDO, so that's what I did since I don't use the certificate in Europe anyway.
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Ohh.... I didn't read this before my last comment. I take it you didn't talk to an aviation attorney immediately after your accident? I realize it's in people's hearts to be trusting... but I'm told never ever surrender that certificate voluntarily. Now, right away, sign up at the AOPA legal services plan. They aren't going to cover the whole ball of wax, but they can give you some good advice at a reduced rate.

BTW, where you on the VFR approach and tower frequency? I had a Mooney ahead of me passing FISKE with his wheels up and they keep calling him until he acknowledged and put them down.

Anyways, I wish you well. Take it as nothing more then a learning experience but please please talk to an aviation attorney. And get that NASA report in also.
 
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Nope, props don't count, gear doesn't count, no injuries... NTSB and FAA both agreed when the plane was back on its wheels that they were classing it an incident.

Not concerned about the FAA or NTSB coming after me, I'm not calling a lawyer at this point.
 
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Henning sorry to hear about this. Sorry you got yourself so tired and just forgot. I hope I never land gear up in my 182. cause i would be on my top. I hope it all works out without a ****ing match with the powers. Hang in there friend.:yes:
 
Henning said:
Not concerned about the FAA or NTSB coming after me, I'm not calling a lawyer at this point.
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Being you turned in your certificate, I concur you don't have too much more to worry about.

Legal advice before the fact is always cheaper then a legal battle after the fact. Someday you may return to the U.S. and it's even possible this could follow you to Europe. Just trying to offer a little advice based on my first hand experience.

I think your attitude of expecting the best is commendable, but it has to be tempered with preparing for the worst as well. You are naked now even though you don't know it. You really should get competent legal advice and there is no way on god's earth I would have voluntarily turned in my certificate until I had at least talked to an attorney and made sure I could get it back based on more then a telephone call assurance from law enforcement.

To each their own I guess. But I do wish you luck and happy to hear you weren't hurt.
 
Damn Henning - glad to hear everything was okay, all things considered. Fatigue is a friggin' *****.
 
Henning! Long time, no speak, my friend. . . Saw a cross-post over on Purple and hopped over to look. Sad to see the fate of your gorgeous 310. In fact, after spending this past week flying our company 310 - a 66' K-model - from Houston to VA, CT, NY, TN and back on a family vacation, it made me wonder if you'd sold it yet. Perhaps you have, one way or another. . . ;-)

While I am not a subscriber to the "those that have and those that will" line of thinking, I will share that I've had a few occasions in both my military and civilian flying whereby I've caught the gear with my secondary check on final. Those few times where I did come close to thonging it away, it was always some sort of distraction or break of habit pattern that nearly led to the same fate as yours. In your case, it sounds like fatigue was a major player. I can show you plenty of navy and airline studies that demonstrate how someone who has been awake for 22 hours possesses the same motor capacity and performs the same in objective skill tests such as simulator driving / flying as someone with a .08 BAC.

Glad you're OK. Who cares about the airplane.

PS: Please send me that Garmin out of your panel! :D
 
MooneyDude said:
Henning! Long time, no speak, my friend. . . Saw a cross-post over on Purple and hopped over to look. Sad to see the fate of your gorgeous 310. In fact, after spending this past week flying our company 310 - a 66' K-model - from Houston to VA, CT, NY, TN and back on a family vacation, it made me wonder if you'd sold it yet. Perhaps you have, one way or another. . . ;-)

While I am not a subscriber to the "those that have and those that will" line of thinking, I will share that I've had a few occasions in both my military and civilian flying whereby I've caught the gear with my secondary check on final. Those few times where I did come close to thonging it away, it was always some sort of distraction or break of habit pattern that nearly led to the same fate as yours. In your case, it sounds like fatigue was a major player. I can show you plenty of navy and airline studies that demonstrate how someone who has been awake for 22 hours possesses the same motor capacity and performs the same in objective skill tests such as simulator driving / flying as someone with a .08 BAC.

Glad you're OK. Who cares about the airplane.

PS: Please send me that Garmin out of your panel! :D
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Thanks Tom, yeah, fatigue was the base link, the other biggie was not needing to slow down or descend until on base, contributing factor was no gear horn.
 
Glad you're Ok - its just bent metal and I love your attitude.

As far as your dealing with the authorities, its nice to see someone "man up" and not try to weasel out of responsibility.

Henning said:
Even when things are going wrong, think about what you are doing and you will be fine.
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Not in any way finding fault or criticizing, but for the benefit of others: do you think checklist discipline, or lack thereof, may have been the proximate cause/dominant lesson here?
 
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Oops


Sorry to hear about your plane and certificate
 
Henning said:
When the FAA dude asked what happened I answered with 2 words, "I forgot". He liked that and the fact that I had not put the switch down or pulled the breaker and tried to bull**** some excuse.
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The one time I came close to a gear up I did put the switch down. I just failed to notice that the gear did not respond to the gear switch being moved to the down position. I did notice it was harder than usual to get slowed down, which is fairly hard to begin with in my plane with any nose down attitude. It was only on my second gear check on short final that I noticed there were no green lights illuminated.

I had to google Avid Catalina. The FAA registry only has 9 listed. Know of one looking to sell? Looks like the company is no longer selling kits.
 
FastEddieB said:
Glad you're Ok - its just bent metal and I love your attitude.

As far as your dealing with the authorities, its nice to see someone "man up" and not try to weasel out of responsibility.



Not in any way finding fault or criticizing, but for the benefit of others: do you think checklist discipline, or lack thereof, may have been the proximate cause/dominant lesson here?
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That is another point, yes.
 
FYI.

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/PIC-archive/FAA-Enforcement/FAA-Enforcement#reexamination

If you decide to voluntarily surrender your certificate in accordance with FAR 61.27, as described above, that's the end of the matter. The certificate is canceled. If you decide to give your certificate to the inspector for temporary custody until you pass the reexamination, be sure to get a letter from the inspector to that effect. Also, get a temporary certificate allowing you to brush up for another try at it.
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FastEddieB said:
Not in any way finding fault or criticizing, but for the benefit of others: do you think checklist discipline, or lack thereof, may have been the proximate cause/dominant lesson here?
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Just my two cents, but most human reactions to reading this come in two forms...

A. There but for the grace of God go I...

Or

B. This could never happen to me, thank goodness, because I do "X" that helps me minimize the risks or something therefore I am more "immune" to tragedy than others.

I lean more towards the (a) camp... You can have checklists, orders, plans, etc... But that level of checklist discipline you speak of is practically not human.... We don't have the level of discipline required to never err.... What we more frequently have is either we err and escape with a close call (at short final our mind goes oh crap gear for no real known reason, or at the 2nd porpoise we hit the gas where the other person reacts 10 seconds later an buys a prop and teardown) or we write it up about our human weaknesses.

One of my biggest fears in aviation is exactly that reality...the greatest driver of risk in life that I see is those external pressures...making it to Oshkosh when tired, have the Mrs. Pressure you, "when are we going to fly as a family together." ... Just...life. And as people who are alive we will err.

But we should avoid being like Job's friends who "sorry comforters are you all, is there no limit to your windy words, I too could speak like you, if I were in your place and shake my head at you."

Condolences on the incident iHenning.
 
Damn. Was off POA for the last couple days traveling in Brazil and surprised to hear. Just poor luck it seems. There is always a silver lining if you look hard enough. Still. Sorry to hear.
 
Henning said:
Yep, I have the letter, the inspector is holding it at the FSDO rather than processing it.
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There you go. You really had me worried for you. Sounds like you have it under control and sorry for doubting you. I'd still file that ASRS though... you have 7 days left to do it and it can only help.
 
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Glad you're fine and your nice looking plane can be replaced with a nicer looking one .
P.S what is up with your web page ? :D
 
Sorry for your loss! The human factor is always going to be there and everyone, even a gold seal master cfii, astronauts, or bob hoover types are prone to errors. The incident happened and you reflected and shared it with us. It goes without saying that by sharing the details and your reflections you are probably saving some airplanes/pilots from the same fate. cheers!
 
Henning said:
The engines cannot be returned to service after a prop strike until the SB to those regards is completed, that basically ends up as a tear down and inspection anymore due to forward liability. It doesn't get one 'new engines', for that I have to kick in the difference. The difference here to your scenario is the engine was not the point of failure, it is covered damage resulting from the failure. Also you are not quite correct in your assumption. If your engine blows say to a broken valve, the valve being the initial point of failure is not covered, the rest of the engine damage resulting from the failed valve is covered damage.

The time on my engines is 188 and 400hrs, so the prorate is pretty small, but as I said, the key issue vis a vis the insurance company is forward liability of the engine. With no injuries involved, the insurance gets off cheap with $70k of exposure vs. $1MM on the liability end. It is in their best interest to mitigate further exposure by having a shop go through the engine to make sure there are no cracks in the crank and such which would be in line with the "Prudent Person" standard. if they would not, should a further incident or accident occur due to a failure of the crank, they are left exposed again to the $1MM as well as possible punitive damages. Regardless anything else though, they are liable for the costs of returning the aircraft to service in a condition representative of prior to the loss, or totaling it, to "make the insured whole" again.
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When I had the prop strike on the O360, insurance paid every penny of the R&R, the teardown & inspection. I paid the difference on the overhaul, since the engine had 2800 hrs on it and no work in its entire life other than replacing 2 cylinders.
 
Jeff K said:
There you go. You really had me worried for you. Sounds like you have it under control and sorry for doubting you. I'd still file that ASRS though... you have 7 days left to do it and it can only help.
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Good idea, I don't think I need it for 'help' but I will file it for its true intent. Also remember, AOPA information is always suspect on this stuff because they are trying to scare you into buying into their legal plan.
 
Truly sorry for the mishap.

However, I can't help but wonder why you reported this as an incident to the NTSB. Yours was such a perfect gear-up that it is exactly covered in NTSB 830 as something that did not need reporting. The worst part being the surrender of your certificate and subsequent hassle.

Of course you can't un-ring that bell, but it would help others to know that the routine gear-up landing without injury or damage to anything but the plane can go unreported. In fact, it would be easier and best for FAA, NTSB and the pilot if it didn't.

Condolences
 
Muttley said:
Truly sorry for the mishap.

However, I can't help but wonder why you reported this as an incident to the NTSB. Yours was such a perfect gear-up that it is exactly covered in NTSB 830 as something that did not need reporting. The worst part being the surrender of your certificate and subsequent hassle.

Of course you can't un-ring that bell, but it would help others to know that the routine gear-up landing without injury or damage to anything but the plane can go unreported. In fact, it would be easier and best for FAA, NTSB and the pilot if it didn't.

Condolences
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I didn't 'report' it as an incident, the NTSB declared it an incident lol. I didn't call anyone, the tower at Appleton did along with the CFR crew who very pleased to find me walking the dog in the grass. I'm not particularly concerned about having any great hassle with the FAA.
 
Not all incidents end up in the database. I know this for a fact.../sheepish
 
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