How do IFR flights to non-towered airports work?

[mscard88]

was this regarding what I said? if so then I don't understand what you're saying. so we shouldn't have been t-boned, which we weren't, because we should have been looking out the window, which we were, which is what prevented us from being t-boned. I don't understand your point. and no one said anything illegal happened.

eman what @flyingron is saying is that traffic pattern procedures are not mandatory, advisable yes, but not mandatory. I agree with him and teach to check final for straight-ins, right traffic when it's supposed to be left, etc. Hey the life you save might be yours!

 

[eman1200]

eman what @flyingron is saying is that traffic pattern procedures are not mandatory, advisable yes, but not mandatory. I agree with him and teach to check final for straight-ins, right traffic when it's supposed to be left, etc. Hey the life you save might be yours!

I am so confused so I'll just drop it since I guess the situation we were in never happens to either of you. good on ya both.

 

[mscard88]

I am so confused so I'll just drop it since I guess the situation we were in never happens to either of you. good on ya both.

No, it has eman, and many other situations. All @flyingron was saying is to keep your eyes outside for other traffic. I wasn't even thinking of your situation when I wrote that. I was trying to explain what he meant, not saying you didn't have a legitimate beef in your case. We still BFFs bro?

 

[eman1200]

No, it has eman, and many other situations. All @flyingron was saying is to keep your eyes outside for other traffic. I wasn't even thinking of your situation when I wrote that. I was trying to explain what he meant, not saying you didn't have a legitimate beef in your case. We still BFFs bro?

here's the situation:

eman: man good thing we were using our eyeballs to look outside or else that IFR guy coming straight in without talking to anyone would have t-boned us
ron: that should never happen because you should have been looking outside
eman: we were looking outside, that's what prevented it
mscard: what ron is saying is this should never happen because you should be looking outside
eman: we were looking outside
mscard: see I teach everyone to look outside, so you should be looking outside
eman: we WERE looking outside
mscard: you know, you might save your life if you just look out side
eman:

 

[mscard88]

here's the situation:

eman: man good thing we were using our eyeballs to look outside or else that IFR guy coming straight in without talking to anyone would have t-boned us
ron: that should never happen because you should have been looking outside
eman: we were looking outside, that's what prevented it
mscard: what ron is saying is this should never happen because you should be looking outside
eman: we were looking outside
mscard: see I teach everyone to look outside, so you should be looking outside
eman: we WERE looking outside
mscard: you know, you might save your life if you just look out side
eman:

So, what you're saying is, we're not BFFs?



Really, when I wrote what I wrote, I'd forgotten about your "incident". Will you ever forgive me?

 

[eman1200]

So, what you're saying is, we're not BFFs?

lol I'm over it. BFFs.

 

[tsts4]

My advice to the OP is focus on the PPL and leave the instrument stuff for once you have earned that first rating.

 

[jeff0000]

My advice to the OP is focus on the PPL and leave the instrument stuff for once you have earned that first rating.

I need something to hold me over in the meantime! Flight sims, YouTube, and PoA is all I have for now...

Have I mentioned how great the PoA forums are?

 

[flyingron]

The fuzzy magenta or blue airspace boundaries on the chart indicate controlled airspace down to 700' or 1200' respectively. I flew Saturday into CTAF airport with 700' ceiling. VFR traffic was completely illegal. No way to fly 500' above and 500' below in 700' ceilings.

Eh, ceilings have no bearing on anything other than controlled airspace surface areas. Even at an airport with a 700 foot transition area (those fuzzy pink rings), you break out at 700, you better expect VFR which is legal to operate there. All VFR needs is a mile and clear of clouds (daytime, 1200 feet or less, outside of controlled airspace), helos only need 1/2 mile.

 

[tsts4]

I need something to hold me over in the meantime! Flight sims, YouTube, and PoA is all I have for now.

Have you purchased or signed up for a PPL ground school course (computer based or classroom)? There’s a ton to learn and following a structured course vs trying to teach yourself via the internet/youtube is the way to go.

There’s also tons of free FAA resources that you can download and read plus lots of great books for purchase.

I get that you’re chomping at the bit, but jumping into Instrument discussions without a solid aeronautical foundation is going to, IMO, be ultimately counterproductive. Kind of like a first year Algebra student asking questions about Calculus.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I need something to hold me over in the meantime! Flight sims, YouTube, and PoA is all I have for now...

Please realize that YouTube aviation videos are a mixed bag. Overall, they are great and I enjoy them enormously. But understand that not all are accurate from an operational or regulatory standpoint. It can be difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff withou a good knowledge base. You can get some pretty good things from some and some pretty bad things from others.

 

[jeff0000]

The first thing I did was do a YouTube ground school course. An aviation school on the east coast took bits of their curriculum

Please realize that YouTube aviation videos are a mixed bag. Overall, they are great and I enjoy them enormously. But understand that not all are accurate from an operational or regulatory standpoint. It can be difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff withou a good knowledge base. You can get some pretty good things from some and some pretty bad things from others.

Here are the YouTube videos I watched for the ground school - a playlist of 55 videos. An aviation school on the east coast put them up. They cover flight controls, weather, airspace, crosswind landings / takeoffs, aircraft maintenance requirements, weather, etc. I'm sure it's not their entire course, but just a few of the things they decided to put up.

Link to Videos Here

 

[tsts4]

Well here’s some links to FAA reference documents that you should spend some time reviewing to get you started:

Practical Test Standards https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/acs/media/private_airplane_acs.pdf

Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/

Airplane Flying Handbook
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/airplane_handbook/

Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM)
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/aim_basic_chg_1_dtd_3-29-18.pdf

Aeronautical Chart Users Guide
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/aero_guide/

When you have all of this material down cold, then start expanding your horizons.

 

[Ghery]

You need to cancel because ATC keeps your flight plan active until you cancel....or sends out the search-and-rescue folks. Cancel in the air as soon as you can do so legally (500 feet below clouds) to release the airspace to others.

ATC will clear you to the airport...which approach you use is up to you.


Bob

LOL. Probably due to lack of experience - you have no mental picture of how it works. It's really no different than flying VFR into a nontowered airport with 5 planes in the pattern. You switch to CTAF in plenty of time, broadcast your location and intentions ("8 mile final," not "FAF inbound"), listen and look for other traffic, and proceed straight in or join the pattern as appropriate based on location and traffic.

Amen. Reporting "FAF inbound" means nothing to most pilots. Including this instrument rated one. Unless I'm familiar with the particular approach without looking at the appropriate approach plate I have no more idea where that is than the lowest time student on the field. Say where you are in plain English.

On this approach, you are going to be flying to BLH VOR at 5,000-8,000 msl. Once cleared for the approach, you will turn to a heading of 232 degrees and go no lower than 3,500 until on your way back to BLH after the procedure turn. You will likely be switched by Center to CTAF once outbound (I would ask if I were not) and start communicating with others (with radios) in the pattern, letting them know where you are and that you are X miles from the airport. Just like VFR, they, in turn, will (should) make their position calls. Since you at least have DME, you will be able to make them pretty accurately.

Yup. But if you are a student pilot working on your private certificate, ignore all this. This discussion is useful for instrument students and pilots, but a new student pilot should simply be concerned with flying the airplane. The ins and outs of instrument flying are not a concern at this point.

 

[Vince R]

If I land at a non-towered airport, why do we need to cancel IFR? And is it possible or preferred to cancel the IFR right before switching over to the CTAF? What is the ATC phraseology for clearing me for any approach vs the visual approach?

By the way, I think it would be awkward to shoot an instrument approach if there were VFR traffic in the pattern - who goes first, and if I have to hold, how do I do that while trying to sequence myself in?

There were a lot of good answers, but I thought I’d mention the possibility of a missed approach as a reason not to cancel IFR in the air.

Sure, if it’s 3000’ and 5-10 miles visibility, no problem canceling IFR since you can pretty well be sure you can complete the flight VFR. But what do you do if it’s maybe 800’ and there are all sorts of obstacles in the area? Even if you have the field in sight, once you cancel IFR, if for some reason you can’t complete the landing...now what?

Once you cancel, you’re not cleared to fly in IMC anymore, so that missed approach procedure isn’t going to be an option if the ceilings are low. Your options are pretty slim - about all you can do is stay in the pattern and hope for the best.

For me, I’m not canceling IFR in the air unless I’m 100% certain I can make the field VFR, and if conditions are marginal, I want to be sure I can also fly the missed approach or to some other alternate visually.

 

[Clip4]

Same for towered and non towered. "Cleared for the ILS runway 24 approach" vs "Cleared fir the visual."

You need to cancel IFR because it needs to be canceled in order to get you out of the system and free the airspace for someone else. The difference between towered and no towered is, at a towered airport, there is someone from ATC who sees you touch down and does it for you.

And if you don’t cancel SAR will be activated.

 

[labbadabba]

I'm actually just saving up money for my PPL at this time. I think I want to go fixed wing, but helicopters are very tempting (and expensive) - maybe I should open up another thread for that discussion . I'd like to keep the possibility of a career in aviation open.

I'll be your typical part 61 student - I went through a ton of ground school YouTube videos, and lots of hours learning about ATC and instrument approaches. I'm also trying to get into VATSIM, which is simulated ATC for your flight sim.

I've been where you are. Kudos for finding out as much as you can, you're bound to have a ton of questions. I might suggest, if you are a flight simmer and using it to augment your flight instruction that you do two things.

1) Work with a CFI, even if it's just a bit of ground school while you work out your finances. Probably best while going the self-taught flight sim route not to ingrain bad habits too early.

2) Don't do VATSIM. VATSIM is nice if you're going to be a flight simmer and nothing more. If you're serious about moving forward use a professional service like pilotedge.net where the controllers are actual trained professionals. It's well worth the $30 a month.

 

[N1120A]

But if you join the pattern before you shoot the approach, you're not flying the approach you were cleared for, correct?

If I were flying this VOR approach, I'm guessing I would just start my approach from the final approach fix (the maltese cross) and report when I was on a two mile final? The only thing is that the approach wants me at or above 1600' MSL, and the traffic pattern is 1200' MSL.

??? Joining the traffic pattern comes at the end of the Approach, not before. The Center should have given you a frequency change long before you are on final. You should be making position and intentions calls on the CTAF a lot farther out than BLH inbound

You won’t be joining the pattern prior to shooting approach. You’ll be on CTAF long before you hit BLH. Most likely clear you for the approach at 3,500 and then “report procedure turn inbound.” Once inbound, they’ll switch ya over to CTAF.

You lose comms with L.A. Center pretty high up - around 3500' MSL, because of the nature of the valley BLH is in and you basically can only cancel by calling flight service. They actually have you report leaving 5000' when on the visual. You assuredly want to be monitoring CTAF in Comm 2 whenever you can, given that a ton of traffic will depart airports like that VFR before picking up IFR in the air.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You lose comms with L.A. Center pretty high up - around 3500' MSL, because of the nature of the valley BLH is in and you basically can only cancel by calling flight service. They actually have you report leaving 5000' when on the visual. You assuredly want to be monitoring CTAF in Comm 2 whenever you can, given that a ton of traffic will depart airports like that VFR before picking up IFR in the air.

Im not saying you are wrong about loss of comm, but the bold part is due to lack of radar coverage at that altitude. Not being able to see you doesn't mean not being able to hear you.

The Center frequency supposedly has an RCAG at Blythe which suggests Center can hear you on the ground. No? One of teh requirements for a Class E surface area is ATC communications al the way to the ground. That can be direct or through an RCAG or some other facility which provides a "rapid relay" to ATC. Apparently, "rapid relay" is one of those "eye of the beholder" things, the beholder in this case being the ATC facility with jurisdiction over the Class E.

 

[Ravioli]

All good youtube based flight training should begin with JustPlaneSilly.

@SixPapaCharlie takes you through all of the most important aspects of safe and enjoyable flight.

Watch them all and then, after you get your certificate, watch them all again so you can get the full impact.

 

[N1120A]

Im not saying you are wrong about loss of comm, but the bold part is due to lack of radar coverage at that altitude. Not being able to see you doesn't mean not being able to hear you.

The Center frequency supposedly has an RCAG at Blythe which suggests Center can hear you on the ground. No? One of teh requirements for a Class E surface area is ATC communications al the way to the ground. That can be direct or through an RCAG or some other facility which provides a "rapid relay" to ATC. Apparently, "rapid relay" is one of those "eye of the beholder" things, the beholder in this case being the ATC facility with jurisdiction over the Class E.

They most definitely can't hear you on the ground. Learned that on Monday.

 

[flyingron]

I used to be able to reach the controlling agency at my field on the ground when it was ZTL, but the last Charlotte airspace grab moved us to CLT approach's area. I not only can't reach them on the ground, but they won't even relay a simple clearance (I only need to fly a mile or so north to be in ZTL's airspace again) for an IFR departure to ZTL. I suspect ZTL would relay a cancellation but unless the weather is low, I just cancel with ZTL prior to being handed off to CLT.

 

[midlifeflyer]

They most definitely can't hear you on the ground. Learned that on Monday.

Have you asked them what is the best way of closing a flight plan or picking up a clearance from the ground? As a Class E surface area, there should be one they prefer.

 

[N1120A]

Have you asked them what is the best way of closing a flight plan or picking up a clearance from the ground? As a Class E surface area, there should be one they prefer.

They said to call FSS or cancel in the air.

 

[flyingron]

REPORTCANCELLATIONTHISFREQUENCYORVIAFLIGHTSERVICECHANGETOADVISORYFREQUENCYAPPEROVEDHAVEANICEDAY

 

[Brian Priest]

And FYI for those that don’t know. Not all IFR traffic is allowed to cancel airborne, even in crisp VMC days. My company is restricted by the feds from doing so. So something to consider.

Plus be mindful in the pattern that large fast jets may be coming in. We are generally mindful of the guy in the pattern. But traffic can be difficult to spot because we are moving so much faster. Until I’m getting fully configured, I’m usually no slower than 180. Fortunately we have tcas, but it’s not fool proof

 

[azure]

And FYI for those that don’t know. Not all IFR traffic is allowed to cancel airborne, even in crisp VMC days. My company is restricted by the feds from doing so. So something to consider.

This is something I did not know. I assumed if there was a restriction on cancelling IFR, it was company policy rather than federal regs.

 

[Brian Priest]

This is something I did not know. I assumed if there was a restriction on cancelling IFR, it was company policy rather than federal regs.

The reality is in a 121, the FAA has a huge amount of control. Everything we do is governed by the regs and the Op Specs that is attached to our operating certificate. There are a lot of restrictions.

Moral of the story is, we’re not trying to be jerks if we don’t cancel airborne (or something else), its that we’re operating within our restrictions

 

[midlifeflyer]

This is something I did not know. I assumed if there was a restriction on cancelling IFR, it was company policy rather than federal regs.

As @Brian Priest indicates, both Part 121 and 135 operation are required to adopt Operations Specification which given their operations. Some are fairly standard. Once approved, they have the force of regulation.

 

[azure]

As @Brian Priest indicates, both Part 121 and 135 operation are required to adopt Operations Specification which given their operations. Some are fairly standard. Once approved, they have the force of regulation.

Now I'm slightly confused, since OpSpecs is exactly what I was thinking of originally. I thought those were set by company policy and realized that they were binding on pilots (wasn't clear on whether they had the force of regulation though). From what @Brian Priest was saying, I thought there were more general regulations. Or is the prohibition on canceling IFR one of the "general OpSpecs" that apply to all 121 ops?

 

[Brian Priest]

Let me clarify on the ops spec.

Imagine that an operating certificate (certificate that says your an airline or on demand operator) is a charm bracelet. With no charms. So it’s basic. Now the regulations spell out some harsh restrictions. One for instance is the minimums a crew may operate on an ILS. Trust me they are sad. So you get an ops spec that allows you to fly to published minimums. Viola first charm on the bracelet, looking better.

You keep adding ops specs to make your operation more marketable. Then there are ops specs that allow you to depart with some low weather. Even as low as 500 RVR. Another charm.

And as is suggested, ops specs are regulatory. In fact the operating manuals (sop, fcom, gom, aom, etc) become regulatory.

Hope that clears it up a bit

 

[pburger]

ATC will clear you to the airport...which approach you use is up to you.
Bob

WHAT??!!

I've never been 'cleared for the option' when IFR. I've been asked what approach I want, but never, EVER, have I been told I'm cleared to the airport, and to just fly any approach I want. You have to be cleared for a particular approach before flying it. At least that's my experience.

 

[Velocity173]

Now I'm slightly confused, since OpSpecs is exactly what I was thinking of originally. I thought those were set by company policy and realized that they were binding on pilots (wasn't clear on whether they had the force of regulation though). From what @Brian Priest was saying, I thought there were more general regulations. Or is the prohibition on canceling IFR one of the "general OpSpecs" that apply to all 121 ops?

The FAA signs off on OpSpecs and General Operations Manuals for 135/121 companies. Adherence to both just isn’t company policy but also FAA. The company can get fined for violations of those manuals.

 

[Velocity173]

WHAT??!!

I've never been 'cleared for the option' when IFR. I've been asked what approach I want, but never, EVER, have I been told I'm cleared to the airport, and to just fly any approach I want. You have to be cleared for a particular approach before flying it. At least that's my experience.

Unless given a cruise clearance, you will be cleared for a particular approach at a non towered field. You won’t be cleared for the visual to a particular runway but you can be cleared for an IAP to a runway.

 

[azure]

Let me clarify on the ops spec.

Imagine that an operating certificate (certificate that says your an airline or on demand operator) is a charm bracelet. With no charms. So it’s basic. Now the regulations spell out some harsh restrictions. One for instance is the minimums a crew may operate on an ILS. Trust me they are sad. So you get an ops spec that allows you to fly to published minimums. Viola first charm on the bracelet, looking better.

You keep adding ops specs to make your operation more marketable. Then there are ops specs that allow you to depart with some low weather. Even as low as 500 RVR. Another charm.

And as is suggested, ops specs are regulatory. In fact the operating manuals (sop, fcom, gom, aom, etc) become regulatory.

Hope that clears it up a bit

Thanks, that is what I got out of your previous post too.

 

[Palmpilot]

WHAT??!!

I've never been 'cleared for the option' when IFR. I've been asked what approach I want, but never, EVER, have I been told I'm cleared to the airport, and to just fly any approach I want. You have to be cleared for a particular approach before flying it. At least that's my experience.

If the controller says "cleared approach" without specifying which one, then the pilot gets to choose which one to fly. From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

CLEARED APPROACH− ATC authorization for an
aircraft to execute any standard or special instrument
approach procedure for that airport. Normally, an
aircraft will be cleared for a specific instrument
approach procedure.
(See CLEARED (Type of) APPROACH.)
(See INSTRUMENT APPROACH
PROCEDURE.)
(Refer to 14 CFR Part 91.)
(Refer to AIM.)

CLEARED (Type of) APPROACH− ATC authorization
for an aircraft to execute a specific instrument
approach procedure to an airport; e.g., “Cleared ILS
Runway Three Six Approach.”
(See APPROACH CLEARANCE.)
(See INSTRUMENT APPROACH
PROCEDURE.)
(Refer to 14 CFR Part 91.)
(Refer to AIM.)​

 

[midwestpa24]

If the controller says "cleared approach" without specifying which one, then the pilot gets to choose which one to fly. From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

​

I have never heard ATC clear for an approach without specifying which one. They usually need to know, so they know where you are heading to start the approach, and more importantly, where they can expect you to show up if you go missed.

 

[Palmpilot]

I have never heard ATC clear for an approach without specifying which one. They usually need to know, so they know where you are heading to start the approach, and more importantly, where they can expect you to show up if you go missed.

I think I've heard it. Not often, though.

 

[luvflyin]

WHAT??!!

I've never been 'cleared for the option' when IFR. I've been asked what approach I want, but never, EVER, have I been told I'm cleared to the airport, and to just fly any approach I want. You have to be cleared for a particular approach before flying it. At least that's my experience.

Just because it’s your experience, that don’t make it the way it it is. Don’t really mean that as harsh and personal as it sounds. It would likely be the experience of most. Most controllers will give a ‘specific’ Approach Clearance even when it’s not necessary. It’s ingrained in their experience. Often it matters which Approach is flown. But there are times and places where it doesn’t matter. If the approach course, the fix from which the Approach begins and the Missed Approach Procedure are all the same it don’t make no anyhow whether you’re RNAV’n, VOR’n, NDB’n or ILS’n as far as separation is concerned.

 

[denverpilot]

Yup. But if you are a student pilot working on your private certificate, ignore all this. This discussion is useful for instrument students and pilots, but a new student pilot should simply be concerned with flying the airplane. The ins and outs of instrument flying are not a concern at this point.

The important point in this thread for VFR only pilots is that those cloud clearance requirements for BELOW the clouds in controlled airspace on a MVFR day are there for everyone’s safety, and they’re barely adequate.

If someone IFR pops out of the clouds right in front of you, and you’re at the legal cloud distances, you and maybe they (if either one of you see each other) have seconds to react.

Cheat on those and you’re just setting yourself up for no time to react at all.

Where this usually gets pushed is in the worst possible place for it to be squeezed. In the pattern at some podunk airport. Someone wants so badly to do laps around the airport in scuds weather they rationalize away or don’t even think about the distance they are from cloud base.

They turn base and watch an IFR go screaming past their nose.

Yeah, we all hope everyone’s tuned to the correct CTAF and making calls, but sometimes the radio isn’t set right.

Give yourself at least a tiny bit of a chance of seeing the inbound as it comes screaming down out of the cloud. Don’t crowd right up against the cloud restrictions below an overcast.

The VFR cloud clearance requirements are your last defense against a whole bunch of other things going wrong. Things that can happen and can go unnoticed.