How Did They Do It in WWII?

[Jay Honeck]

Mary and I were watching one of the bazillion shows on the History Channel about the air war over Europe. After a lifetime of watching these shows, I thought I knew it all...

...Then Mary innocently dropped this bomb: "How, after twisting and turning in air combat over unfamiliar territory, and getting separated from their mates, did a fighter pilot know where he was, and then find his way back to base in England?"

Given how easy it is to get disoriented doing aerobatics (WITHOUT people shooting at you), I had to confess that I had no idea.

My first thought was that they had a radio beacon of some kind to follow, in those pre-VOR, pre-LORAN, pre-GPS days -- but that would, of course, lead the enemy straight back to your base.

Over Western Europe you could just head West until you hit the coast, and try to figure it out from there, but what about over the vast emptiness of the Eastern Front? Or the Pacific, where you had NO ground reference?

How did they do it?

 

[jhausch]

Your watch and the location of the sun.

 

[kyleb]

Mary and I were watching one of the bazillion shows on the History Channel about the air war over Europe. After a lifetime of watching these shows, I thought I knew it all...

...Then Mary innocently dropped this bomb: "How, after twisting and turning in air combat over unfamiliar territory, and getting separated from their mates, did a fighter pilot know where he was, and then find his way back to base in England?"

Given how easy it is to get disoriented doing aerobatics (WITHOUT people shooting at you), I had to confess that I had no idea.

My first thought was that they had a radio beacon of some kind to follow, in those pre-VOR, pre-LORAN, pre-GPS days -- but that would, of course, lead the enemy straight back to your base.

Over Western Europe you could just head West until you hit the coast, and try to figure it out from there, but what about over the vast emptiness of the Eastern Front? Or the Pacific, where you had NO ground reference?

How did they do it?

The navy had radio homing devices, presumably something like VOR's. You flew your airplane back in the general direction of the carrier and homed in on the signal. They also had IFF (the predecessor of our current transponders), so the boat could pick them up on radar and give them a voice steer. The tough thing for the naval types was that 1940's radio gear wasn't particularly reliable, so plenty of men were lost because the technology took the day off.

On Eastern front, the mission lengths were relatively short - the airfields were very close to the front line. So it was probably VFR map following.

On the Western front, I'm sure there were beacons in England, and besides that, as you stated, you could navigate back to the island VFR or even get a radio steer using IFF.

 

[tonycondon]

fly in the general direction of england for the right amount of time. find an airport and land.

 

[Jay Honeck]

The navy had radio homing devices, presumably something like VOR's. You flew your airplane back in the general direction of the carrier and homed in on the signal.

Interesting. Why did the enemy not use this to find our carriers?

Or did they?

 

[zaitcev]

Pacific was tough. Carriers had SW transmitters and airplanes could home in on those, like we do with NDBs.

Check out this, scroll down to the map:
http://wonderduck.mu.nu/the_flight_to_nowhere

 

[kyleb]

Interesting. Why did the enemy not use this to find our carriers?

Or did they?

They probably lacked the equipment - weight was pretty important. Also, the Japanese were pretty far behind us in radio technology. Also, I suspect the beacons were only "on" during critical phases, like an hour or so before the aircraft returned to the carrier.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Your watch and the location of the sun.

That will get you headed in the right direction, but won't get you back to base.

Here in South Texas, we have vast areas of mesquite-covered scrub that looks pretty much like everywhere else. In Iowa, it was vast areas of cultivation. Both types of terrain make finding small airports interesting -- oftentimes we would be darned near in the pattern before either of us were able to spot the runway.

And that's with GPS!

It really makes me wonder how many of our losses during WWII were due to navigational mistakes.

 

[kontiki]

If you contact the IEEE, you can probably order a copy of this special edition of the systems magazine (attachment), in it they trace the origins of many of the current/older Nav systems to what they cobbled together in WWII.

I had a hard time putting this one down.

There is also a similar edition that is the case study on the development of radar. I can find the reference if any one cares. It's really a harder read.

Before WWII they couldn't interest the leadership for the anti-aircraft groups in radar development because money was tight. The excuse they used was that there was no point in detecting aircraft any further out than the guns could shoot.

They did use sound locators.

Photos -> http://www.google.com/images?rls=co...i aircraft sound location photos&spell=1&sa=X

 

[ScottM]

Just an FYI there was VOR back in the WW2 days. There were also NDBs, ground radar, DF steering and other systems. Failing all of that there was this thing called a magnetic compass. It would work even with an electrical failure and along with a chart and a watch one could do some pretty incredible navigational feats.

 

[COFlyBoy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_frequency_radio_range

 

[Ted]

It really makes me wonder how many of our losses during WWII were due to navigational mistakes.

That, poor/no weather information, and various mechanical failures I suspect had to do with a large number of them.

In Ernest Gann's book he talks about squawking a particular code (or whatever the old term was for their predecessor to the transponder), which changed daily. Unless you had the proper code in, they would shut off the navigation aid, and assume you were the enemy. So they would probably send out people to try to kill you. In one instance he describes, he was given the wrong code, and the airport was so fogged in that at 50 feet off the deck they finally got below the clouds. Or something of that nature. They managed to find the landing strip, somehow.

 

[dmccormack]

What many of this WW2 in HD shows fail to mention are the numbers lost to fratricide and the numbers just plain lost.

 

[Gerhardt]

What many of this WW2 in HD shows fail to mention are the numbers lost to fratricide and the numbers just plain lost.

I've caught a few brief mentions of fratricide in some of the History Channel WW II shows. And of pilots getting lost. One thing that bothered me was hearing in one show that when picking up downed pilots, or if a sailor went overboard, that ships would make only one pass at picking them up. If they missed, they kept going....to minimize the risk from enemy submarines. That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Anthony]

I've caught a few brief mentions of fratricide in some of the History Channel WW II shows. And of pilots getting lost. One thing that bothered me was hearing in one show that when picking up downed pilots, or if a sailor went overboard, that ships would make only one pass at picking them up. If they missed, they kept going....to minimize the risk from enemy submarines. That just doesn't make sense to me.

I've read that they didn't stop at all, even for one pass. I don't think a convey can stop. Is sounds harsh, and is sad to think of men left to die, but the risk of losing several ships, and hundreds of men was probably too great.

The more I read, the more I realize fratricide was all too common, on both sides.

 

[dell30rb]

I've caught a few brief mentions of fratricide in some of the History Channel WW II shows. And of pilots getting lost. One thing that bothered me was hearing in one show that when picking up downed pilots, or if a sailor went overboard, that ships would make only one pass at picking them up. If they missed, they kept going....to minimize the risk from enemy submarines. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Unfortunately its a lesser of two evils type of deal. A ship slowing and circling is a sitting duck. Speed was really the only defense they had against submarines.

 

[mikea]

I would think heading west and looking for the big island of England and then figuring out where you base was on it by the topology wasn't so hard - in the daytime.

Robin Olds tells of a Major getting in his P38(?) to log some night hours and getting lost out to sea off the coast of Norway on the way home. He knew the Major was out of it so he did a "Sir? Do you mind if I take it for a while?" and gently turned south east for home.

 

[Jaybird180]

I've read that they didn't stop at all, even for one pass. I don't think a convey can stop. Is sounds harsh, and is sad to think of men left to die, but the risk of losing several ships, and hundreds of men was probably too great.

The more I read, the more I realize fratricide was all too common, on both sides.

When former Pres. George HW Bush went down, the entire fleet stopped to look for him. IIRC, his air combat days were over after that recovery mission.

 

[MBDiagMan]

I've caught a few brief mentions of fratricide in some of the History Channel WW II shows. And of pilots getting lost. One thing that bothered me was hearing in one show that when picking up downed pilots, or if a sailor went overboard, that ships would make only one pass at picking them up. If they missed, they kept going....to minimize the risk from enemy submarines. That just doesn't make sense to me.

I know it sounds cold blooded, but there was a war to fight. Do they risk hundreds on board the ship to try to recover ONE sailor?

 

[kyleb]

When former Pres. George HW Bush went down, the entire fleet stopped to look for him. IIRC, his air combat days were over after that recovery mission.

The navy pre-positioned submarines around likely targets for airstrikes so the crews had some chance of being rescued after a ditching or a bail-out. GWB benefitted from that, as did hundreds of other Navy, Marine, and Air Corps pilots.

 

[RyanShort1]

I suspect a lot of those guys were faaaar better at pilotage than a lot of us are today.

Ryan

 

[flyingron]

The navy pre-positioned submarines around likely targets for airstrikes so the crews had some chance of being rescued after a ditching or a bail-out. GWB benefitted from that, as did hundreds of other Navy, Marine, and Air Corps pilots.

GWB only benefited in that the subs saved his father to be able to later sire him.

 

[Palmpilot]

I've read that they didn't stop at all, even for one pass. I don't think a convey can stop. Is sounds harsh, and is sad to think of men left to die, but the risk of losing several ships, and hundreds of men was probably too great.

I'm reading Alex Kershaw's The Few, and it says that during the Battle of Britain, British search and rescue efforts for downed pilots in the English Channel were "appalling," while the Germans did a much better job of it.

 

[Jay Honeck]

I suspect a lot of those guys were faaaar better at pilotage than a lot of us are today.

Ryan

Boy, you got that right. We are soooo spoiled.

One of these days I'm gonna make a flight with everything turned off, just to see if I still remember how!

 

[kyleb]

Boy, you got that right. We are soooo spoiled.

One of these days I'm gonna make a flight with everything turned off, just to see if I still remember how!

I think pilotage was a lot easier in the days before TFR's, restricted airspace, Class C airspace, etc. All you had to do was bumble along between obvious landmarks - if you were 15 miles off course, no big deal. In today's world, being 15 miles off course could be a bad thing.

Of course, if you were in a P-51, whether you were over allied or enemy territory, a rules violation was the least of your worries.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I recall a story where Spitfires returning from a mission to jolly old' would descend to the channel surface under the deck, then find a hole in the fog at the beach, hedgehop (with little clue as to their location) until they came across an airfield. Land, find out where they were, dine and drink as guests, then usually the fog cleared the next day and back to base.

 

[dmccormack]

I think pilotage was a lot easier in the days before TFR's, restricted airspace, Class C airspace, etc. All you had to do was bumble along between obvious landmarks - if you were 15 miles off course, no big deal. In today's world, being 15 miles off course could be a bad thing.

I still fly pilotage and ded reckoning in the Chief (Whiskey compass, Sectional, and a watch).

I would not go without a handheld GPS into complicated airspace where a slight deviation would be trouble. I have flown across states with the old timey method.

I use the barrier and handrail method -- some can't miss landmarks on either side of the route with can't miss landmarks at set intervals (15 minutes is about max).

 

[Ted]

One of these days I'm gonna make a flight with everything turned off, just to see if I still remember how!

I do that routinely, especially with students. But I also only do it around areas where I'm not worried about airspace or TFRs. These days, that's really the only safe way you can do it.

 

[John Baker]

I've never been there, but I think I've heard that the British Islands are pretty much clouded over for a good part of the year. VFR was not a typical flying condition. It was mostly climbing and descending through clouds with most operations done on top.

They probably used the blind luck method of navigation most of the time. I know I've gotten pretty good at it myself.


John

 

[ScottM]

I've never been there, but I think I've heard that the British Islands are pretty much clouded over for a good part of the year. VFR was not a typical flying condition. It was mostly climbing and descending through clouds with most operations done on top.

They probably used the blind luck method of navigation most of the time. I know I've gotten pretty good at it myself.


John

I lived in the UK for a couple of years and flew all of my flights VFR. There were plenty of days one could do that. Now there always did seem to be clouds, but they were usually high enough to do the flight safely below the deck. But I am guessing that the bomber and fighter guys were not flying low and slow and did indeed have to climb above the deck. Thankfully there were radio nav aids for them to be using. Even then they would still use ded reckoning and pilotage to fly their missions.

 

[BiffJ]

Read about the Lady Be Good.....Bombers had a dedicated Navigator and still got lost.
On the other hand...they were taught pilotage and required to know it before getting set loose on long distance missions. Radio nav was available and a working compass made life much easier. Most dogfights don't involve lots of snap rolls or lomcevaks so the aerobatics aren't that severe and a good pilot should be able to reorient pretty quick.

Frank

 

[Everskyward]

I used to be able to fly around Colorado without using any navaids or even looking at a chart. I still recognize lots of things...

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I flew a 172 across Canada several decades ago. I recall being low level over Saskatchewan or eastern Alberta for a good length of time without a decent vor fix. Every section looked exactly the same as the last one, no striking features on the prairie to help. Just stay the course and try not to be watching the gas gauge constantly (although you could land just about anywhere out there, it is flat as a pancake). Eventually an oasis appeared.

 

[John Baker]

Read about the Lady Be Good.....Bombers had a dedicated Navigator and still got lost.
On the other hand...they were taught pilotage and required to know it before getting set loose on long distance missions. Radio nav was available and a working compass made life much easier. Most dogfights don't involve lots of snap rolls or lomcevaks so the aerobatics aren't that severe and a good pilot should be able to reorient pretty quick.

Frank

Were there that many "good" pilots back then. We always hear of the heroic exploits of a limited few, but then we also hear about hundreds of them being rushed through training. We hear stories about more of them dying in training than in combat.

By todays standards, were they actually good pilots, or were they more balls out gutsy fliers hell bent on doing the job? Perhaps actual flying was secondary to taking their weapons to the enemy?

John

 

[Tom-D]

As an old sailor I've been thru a few man over board drills the navy will and always has done its level best to recover sailors that went overboard.

That is why a convoy aways travels in trail, the ship behind the man over board will do the rescue.

 

[Ted]

I used to be able to fly around Colorado without using any navaids or even looking at a chart. I still recognize lots of things...

Of course, you have a number of thousands of hours flying over Colorado in VMC... in a plane that I think was pretty nifty, no less.

 

[Witmo]

I recall a story where Spitfires returning from a mission to jolly old' would descend to the channel surface under the deck, then find a hole in the fog at the beach, hedgehop (with little clue as to their location) until they came across an airfield. Land, find out where they were, dine and drink as guests, then usually the fog cleared the next day and back to base.

If you look at a WWII era map of the number and location of military airfields in Britain, you'd realize that if a pilot could find the island, there'd be a place to land, refuel, and get situated for a short flight to home base. You could't throw a rock without it landing on an airfield from anywhere in England. Finding the island wasn't always guaranteed, however.

Rather than turn on a ground transmitter for a friendly aircraft to home in on (as well as an enemy aircraft), I suspect that the aircraft would transmit and the airfield would provide a DF steer towards home.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

For crewed aircraft, Celestial navigation was routine when a fix could be obtained. When that wasn't an alternative, ded or dead reckoning flying periodic triangles with flare drops to correct for wind were performed. Yes, there was radio navigation that got many a Navy pilot to base or a ship, but not like today. I have a friend that got a P-3 home that way in the Hawaiian Islands with minimum fuel. They had miscalculated a leg using ded reckoning and corrected with a nav aide which wasn't always available well out at sea. Sometimes only one could be received and there was no way to cross check it.

There are famous errors like the bomber found a few years ago in the African desert that miscalculated using ded reckoning. It is assumed they caught an unanticipated tail wind that pushed them well past their intended landing point early and they never recognized that--flew til fuel ran out. One has to remember, early in the war, we didn't fully understand wind aloft. When the Norden bomb site was designed, it was used at lower altitudes in our West. Our planes wound up having to go higher in wartime to avoid ground fire and fighters. The sites were very accurate low, but hadn't been designed to compensate for the high wind speeds aloft.

Life and death seemed to be viewed differently then. Death was accepted as a consequence of war; on large missions by folks like the Eighth Army Air Force, high casualty figures were predicted and accepted by leadership to achieve the intended goal. Ike was given casualty estimates before D Day; there was a time, that was tenuous.

Early casualty rates on shipping to England from the States received devastating destruction from German subs. The convoy was created to counter this. Destroyers were provided to protect freight carrying ships. Speeds were set with zig-zag patters to make targeting more difficult. When engaged by subs, the destroyers would go out to meet them. The convoy had to cruise at the speed of the slowest ship. Sometimes a slower ship would have to be dropped from the convoy to keep the remaining ships in relative safety. Read the early reports and you'll find tonnage sunk was at an alarmingly high level. Planes could only cover convoys for part of the trip early in the war. Longer range planes and carrier based planes changed this later in the war.

Look at how many aircraft carriers the U.S. had by the end of WWII. Hard to believe it was back down to six when Korea broke out (a major reason given that N. Korea and its allies didn't think we could defend it.)

In talking to many veterans, they commonly didn't think they would survive the war. Interviewed after some battles like the Battle of the Bulge, many survivors of units that were over run didn't think they would survive. Read some of the battle notes of the 101st Airborne Division leaders. There were times they weren't sure they still commanded a fighting force; yet, resisted to the end. They were fighting for more than their lives; it was for the very existence of they're country and whether their families would live in a free society.

We suffered many times because of a lack of precise navigation. Read about how our airborne units were distributed in a far flung manner behind enemy lines on D Day. Navy ships fire on our planes on several occasions. read about the Sicily invasion and how our ships fired on friendly aircraft. It's from errs like this and miscues that a lot of our tactics were designed to better coordinate, navigate and communicate.

Best,

Dave

 

[Ghery]

Just an FYI there was VOR back in the WW2 days. There were also NDBs, ground radar, DF steering and other systems. Failing all of that there was this thing called a magnetic compass. It would work even with an electrical failure and along with a chart and a watch one could do some pretty incredible navigational feats.

A mag compass is great, until it gets shot out. One P-51 pilot I remember reading about decades ago had that happen to him. Put out his problem on the radio and another pilot heading back to England told him what screw on the windscreen frame to line up with the sun. Got him home.

What many of this WW2 in HD shows fail to mention are the numbers lost to fratricide and the numbers just plain lost.

The leading Mustang ace in the ETO, George Preddy, was shot down by "friendly fire". Being good doesn't help when your luck runs out.

 

[Jim Logajan]

That, poor/no weather information, and various mechanical failures I suspect had to do with a large number of them.

In Ernest Gann's book he talks about squawking a particular code (or whatever the old term was for their predecessor to the transponder), which changed daily. Unless you had the proper code in, they would shut off the navigation aid, and assume you were the enemy. So they would probably send out people to try to kill you. In one instance he describes, he was given the wrong code, and the airport was so fogged in that at 50 feet off the deck they finally got below the clouds. Or something of that nature. They managed to find the landing strip, somehow.

Oddly, I was just reading of a case where an allied pilot was mistakenly shot down and killed for giving the wrong code.

Anyone reading this ever heard of Amy Johnson? She was a British pilot allegedly on a secret mission in WWII and it was alleged (many decades later) that her airplane was shot down when she responded with the wrong color code of the day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Johnson

She first became famous for being the first woman to fly solo from Britain to Australia in 1930 in a de Havilland DH.60 Moth biplane. Navigation equipment consisted of only a magnetic compass.

It seems she had only 50 some hours solo flying time when she made the trip.

Oh - and first woman in England to be granted a ground engineer license. Amazing accomplishments considering the sexism she had to overcome.