Homebuilt, What does it take?!

cocolos

cocolos

Pre-takeoff checklist
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cocolos
So...I've been very heavily thinking about building a lancair 360. I've talked to a couple builders/owners, but I am still not sure about it. Mostly I am still not sure I grasp the amount of work it's going to take. So here are some questions for those building or that have built before:

  • How much time did you commit it to it a week?
  • Is it worth it to do a builder assist program?
  • Did you continue to fly often or regularly?
  • DId you mostly reach out to the community for help rather than assist programs?
  • Would it be wise to get started on a kit even though I wont have the money for the engine + avionics for another couple of years?
  • Did you start with some knowledge of the material you were working with, i.e. composite, metal, etc.?

I think my biggest concern is that I have 0 knowledge of composites and/or building.

Any advice/tips will be appreciated, thanks!
 
I own a lancair 235/320. I paid more than the going rate for these today. The builder told me it cost him more to build it than I paid then. That disparity would only be larger today. Further, while lancair still has some parts available for these, they do not still supply all parts for these today.
Personally, for a lancair 360 I would buy used.
 
It's a huge time commitment. Successful builders will attempt to do at least a little every day, even if it's only 15 min. If you expect to finish in a reasonable amount of time the project will consume the vast majority of your free time. Most do not stay current as a result--they simply don't have the time, money or like me, both. If you have a family, they need to be onboard otherwise I guarantee you won't be happy.

If you have the means quick-build options and builder assist programs are the way to go. You trade money for time but the chances of success go way up.

I know of many builders who went pay as you go so it's very common to not have the cash to buy everything up front. However, be conservative in your budgeting. For my RV-10 I budgeted on the premise that the kit, engine, and avionics would each consume roughly a third of the total cost and planned accordingly.

I started with zero knowledge and bought tools and small practice kits to hone my skills. The internet is a huge resource from which to learn and get help. For example, the how-to videos and webinars on the EAA website are fantastic. Having a local and active EAA chapter nearby is also extremely helpful.
 
cocolos said:
So...I've been very heavily thinking about building a lancair 360. I've talked to a couple builders/owners, but I am still not sure about it. Mostly I am still not sure I grasp the amount of work it's going to take. So here are some questions for those building or that have built before:

  • How much time did you commit it to it a week? ➡️20 hrs plus full time business.
  • Is it worth it to do a builder assist program? ➡️If you have the $.
  • Did you continue to fly often or regularly? ➡️1 hr/mo C172.
  • DId you mostly reach out to the community for help rather than assist programs? ➡️Internet, VAF Forum, Matronics Forum, Books, Nearby Builders.
  • Would it be wise to get started on a kit even though I wont have the money for the engine + avionics for another couple of years? ➡️Yes.
  • Did you start with some knowledge of the material you were working with, i.e. composite, metal, etc.? ➡️A&P, but very little sheetmetal experience.

I think my biggest concern is that I have 0 knowledge of composites and/or building.

Any advice/tips will be appreciated, thanks!
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Good advice above.

We did not take family vacations from 2007-2012. Very little dining out or movies, drive old vehicles, debt free before placing first order, family was hands-on 10% and supported me on the other 90%. Two years and 2100+ hrs later, a slow build RV-10 flew on 12/1/2011. FT= 100 hrs 2012, 25 hrs this year with a very slow economy. Other than hangar rent/insurance...still debt free, which has helped in times like we are having. Sure, renting would be cheaper. Been there, no thanks.
 
FORANE said:
I own a lancair 235/320. I paid more than the going rate for these today. The builder told me it cost him more to build it than I paid then. That disparity would only be larger today. Further, while lancair still has some parts available for these, they do not still supply all parts for these today.
Personally, for a lancair 360 I would buy used.
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If you really are interested in saving money sell your airplane. ;) Flying is a passion, building your own airplane is a culmination and expression of that passion.

OP, unless the passion fires burn brightly don't do it. I would start with something easier to build where customer support is higher, or just volunteer to help someone else building and see how you like it. Yes, the builder assistance programs are very good, go that route if you have any doubts.

The time comment meant is huge. It is a full time job on top of your full time job. There were many days I worked in the shop until 1 in the morning, and was up at 7 to start all over again. When you are not working on it you think about it. Projects you dread turn into a piece of cake, and projects you thought would be easy turn into nightmares... Literally.

The keys to finishing are do something every day, even if it is cleaning the shop. Enlist buddies that have built planes before ( internet buds) . Have a clear financial path to completion, underfunded ( unfinished) projects are a dime a dozen.

The pride you will feel, and the self discovery of building your own flying machine cannot be measure. The emotional highs and lows are intense, but the personal growth is off the charts.

Of all the members of POA only a hand full have completed homebuilts. It is an elite ( or crazy) group motivated aviators. You have to decide if you are capable of joining the group.
 
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RV10flyer said:
Good advice above.

We did not take family vacations from 2007-2012. Very little dining out or movies, drive old vehicles, debt free before placing first order, family was hands-on 10% and supported me on the other 90%. Two years and 2100+ hrs later, a slow build RV-10 flew on 12/1/2011. FT= 100 hrs 2012, 25 hrs this year with a very slow economy. Other than hangar rent/insurance...still debt free, which has helped in times like we are having. Sure, renting would be cheaper. Been there, no thanks.
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Here is a dedicated, passionate aviator that motivated his whole family to become involved. He had a plan for funding the project and stuck to it. They sacrificed today for a better tomorrow. The results are an incredible airplane (RV-10) with no debt service.

:cheers:
 
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I couldn't do it. I'm guessing if you have ask it ain't for you. You can get an old 172 cheap these days. The 2,000 hours of build time you save gives you a hell of a head start on cross countries.
 
ClimbnSink said:
I couldn't do it. I'm guessing if you have ask it ain't for you. You can get an old 172 cheap these days. The 2,000 hours of build time you save gives you a hell of a head start on cross countries.
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Everyone has to evaluate their own priorities and motivation. I put a lot of thought into it before starting (I had to ask). And while a 172 or a Cherokee can be bought cheaply and my club rate is even cheaper, flying one is what motivated me to build. Flying 100kt trips with a bronze age panel in a pre-1970 airplane is what motivates me to keep building. I looked at several faster/bigger alternatives that I figured I could afford to buy, but maintaining and flying them would be a real challenge.

I know some people who have not stayed current while building, others have. I get in at least an hour or two a month, and will for the next few months (with a CFI) even while medically grounded.

This all reminds me... I have GOT to get out there this week and finish putting that bottom wing skin on. I want to get the fuselage started this winter. Oh, and another way you can save some time is by buying a kit someone else started, just make sure it's one that you can check and verify the build quality -- and take an expert with you do look it over. EAA technical advisors are a good resource. And if you're not an EAA member, find a local chapter and join!
 
If you've got more money than time consider the Glasair "two week to taxi" program. I'm not sure if there's a similar program for Lancair, but that way you get just enough exposure to the build of your plane to know if it's something you'd like to do from the ground up. Personally, I don't have the attention span for it.
 
cocolos said:
So...I've been very heavily thinking about building a lancair 360. I've talked to a couple builders/owners, but I am still not sure about it. Mostly I am still not sure I grasp the amount of work it's going to take. So here are some questions for those building or that have built before:

  • How much time did you commit it to it a week?
  • Is it worth it to do a builder assist program?
  • Did you continue to fly often or regularly?
  • DId you mostly reach out to the community for help rather than assist programs?
  • Would it be wise to get started on a kit even though I wont have the money for the engine + avionics for another couple of years?
  • Did you start with some knowledge of the material you were working with, i.e. composite, metal, etc.?

I think my biggest concern is that I have 0 knowledge of composites and/or building.

Any advice/tips will be appreciated, thanks!
Click to expand...

The layup work is already done, you get large shell segments that you bond together. I helped a guy do a IVP years ago, it was a lot of work even as such, figure 1500 man hours if you know your way around tools and working on airplanes, more if you have to learn these skills in the process. Look in the trades as to how many unfinished kits are for sale. Now compare that to how many completed and flying ones are for sale and look at their prices. When you do that you'll see it makes little sense for someone with few skills who wants a plane to fly to build one.

You can buy a Lancair 360 complete and flying for 1/3rd to 1/2 of what it costs to build one, and you can fly it home rather than work on it 2-3 hrs every day for 3 years before flying. The reason to build a plane is because you love the act of creation, not because you want a plane.
 
How much time did you commit it to it a week?
I'm am unique in this regard. I spent all day, roughly 7 days a week building. My job at the time had a duty schedule of 60 days on, and 30 days off. During my 30 days off, I dedicated almost 100% of my waking hours to building my Tango.


Is it worth it to do a builder assist program?
Yes!! Especially if you're a 1st time builder and are nervous about your abilities. The time you save and the money you save by not having to re-order parts you messed up can make the additional cost worthwhile. The education you get can be priceless.

Did you continue to fly often or regularly?
Yes, but then again, flying is my job. YMMV

Did you mostly reach out to the community for help rather than assist programs?
I did do some reaching out, looking for general advice and whatnot. Depending on your location and how active your local EAA chapter is, they could be almost as good as a build center. However, a highly active and motivated chapter that things RVs are the cat's meow, and look down their noses at anything else, especially those plastic airplanes, then you're probably better off without them. Again, YMMV.

Would it be wise to get started on a kit even though I wont have the money for the engine + avionics for another couple of years?
If you do a two weeks to taxi type of build center, it's best to have everything right then and there. If this looks like a multi-year project, then saving up for the engine, avionics, etc. is very doable. If you go this route, I definitely recommend that you wait until you're ready to install this stuff before buying. You don't want your engine sitting in the back of the garage rusting and your avionics becoming a home to spiders, only to find out that some better (engine or avionics) has just come out.

Did you start with some knowledge of the material you were working with, i.e. composite, metal, etc.?
My Tango is a composite aircraft. I knew next to nothing about working with composites other than the fact that the people I talked to that had worked with them had good things to say. Remember, this whole airplane building thing is an educational experience. If you go into it with a mindset that you'll have to learn new skills and techniques, I think you'll do fine.


Others have mentioned financial, social and family considerations above. Don't let the naysayers steer you away if this is something you really want to do. There's plenty of them out there, and I had my fair share during the entire process, but also go into this with your eyes open. It is a big project and it will shape who you are if you let it.
 
I wouldn't build an experimental unless I had a HUGE amount of free cash. So much so that the cost of building had absolutely no impact on my day-to-day finances. Also a huge amount of truly free time. For example if you typically play 4-5 rounds of golf per week and now you plan to use that time to build an airplane. You have the space, preferably at your house to do all of this work. If you have to drive 30 minutes each way, well consider that a non-starter.

I haven't built one, but I have done a lot of taxing long term personal projects, so nothing here but another opinion.
 
Oh, the factory build assist... If there is such a program, definitely take advantage, it will save a whole lot of time and money.
 
Very good advice has been given. There has been reference that building an airplane is very time consuming and is like a full time job.

My attitude was that it was more a hobby. I had no set timetable for completion. People would always ask me when it was going to be done, and mt stock answer was "Tuesday".

I think where some fall short and fail to complete a project is when they "have" to build in order to fly the airplane of choice, if buying a completed one is not in the budget. In my case, I was fortunate to "get" to build an airplane.

Most kts, not being familiar with Lancair however, allow you to purchase the project in subkits. Start out slow with a relatively less expensive subkit and see how you like it. Once into the build mode, you will quickly see if homebuilding is for you without plunking down a huge wad of cash.

I thoroughly enjoyed building, so much so that I am building another.

I will agree with Geico....homebuilders are an elite, and definitely crazy group.
 
Almost forgot...
cocolos said:
  • Would it be wise to get started on a kit even though I wont have the money for the engine + avionics for another couple of years?
  • Did you start with some knowledge of the material you were working with, i.e. composite, metal, etc.?
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Regarding the first question -- absolutely. I figure I have at least another year to save up for an engine, prop and panel, maybe longer. As others have said, don't buy that stuff until you need it.

As for the second question, I was nervous about it because I'd never driven a rivet in my life and was about to start building an RV. I built the Van's toolbox kit and have learned a lot along the way, and keep learning all the time. The key thing to remember is that just because you haven't done it before, doesn't mean you can't do it RIGHT. It just means you might not do things quickly while you're learning, and maybe not right the first time. There are people who can help you learn, though. Despite my inexperience you won't find any substandard or un-airworthy parts or workmanship on my plane. Just because you're an amateur doesn't mean you can't do professional quality work.
 
^ I bet there are plenty of partially completed kits out there that would sell for the first reasonable offer.
 
Capt.Crash'n'Burn said:
Where would you get the kit?

Those have been out of production for years.
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There's plenty around i've asked on the lancair mailing lists.

Wow! Thanks everyone there's is so much information that you guys provided; I will take a look at all of it and consider my options. I am very much looking to learning process, but just think I should get advice from those that been in my shoes before jumping into a project of such scale.
 
It really, really, really helps if you are close to your hangar or have a home workshop. That way you can construct when you have a few free minutes.

In my case I'm a one hour drive, one way, to the hangar, and it is not practical to only work an hour or so at a time. Not worth the drive. So I have to set aside an entire day.
 
tinerj said:
It really, really, really helps if you are close to your hangar or have a home workshop. That way you can construct when you have a few free minutes.

In my case I'm a one hour drive, one way, to the hangar, and it is not practical to only work an hour or so at a time. Not worth the drive. So I have to set aside an entire day.
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This goes for owning as well. I find that I fly a lot less now that I'm 45 mins from the airport than when I lived only 15 mins away. When you add up all the driving, planning, preflight, flying, fueling, cleaning etc. It takes up a significant block of weekend time. Owning a plane is about setting priorities. Those who don't make it a priority won't be in ownership long.
 
tinerj said:
It really, really, really helps if you are close to your hangar or have a home workshop. That way you can construct when you have a few free minutes.

In my case I'm a one hour drive, one way, to the hangar, and it is not practical to only work an hour or so at a time. Not worth the drive. So I have to set aside an entire day.
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Definitely! Build where you live - even if you live in a Motel 6.
You may also find it both cheaper and more expeditious to build in your basement (vs renting a non co-located hangar), even if it means digging out the back to wall to get the plane out when it's time for final assembly.
 
I'm building my 9A solo with no help, started bending first metal in January of 2008 and I'm probably a year from first flight right now with around 1600 hours in it so far. You can expect around 2000 man-hours for an RV, maybe as many as 2500 for some of the composite planes. Repeat offenders show that the second airplane goes about 500 hours faster than the first because you know what to do. I've got a full-time job with 40 minute commute each way plus a wife and house to keep going, and recently had to put the build on full-stop hold for about 8 months while I got another business launched, but I'm back in the shop now. My wife is expecting our first child in May which will throw another monkey wrench into my schedule for a while.

It's not a "project" that you handle like installing a fireplace or closing in the garage or even remodeling a bathroom. It becomes a way of life, something that you think about constantly - at least you will if you want to finish it. There are lots of half-built kits for sale cheap on the market from people who thought it sounded like fun but didn't have the drive to finish it. If you just want to fly the experimental class for it's obvious benefits - buy a finished flying one and get after it. I wanted to build my own, and the building is every bit as much fun as the flying for me (I've also got a 172). I already have my next airplane project picked out for when I call this one "finished".

When I started I didn't have enough free cash to get more than 20% of the way there - but I constantly kept buying parts and pieces as I went, and spread the cost over several years and it's really not bad that way. The single largest piece that you can't spread out is the engine and it's right at the end of the project anyway, you can plan for that expense a bit.
 
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Henning said:
You can buy a Lancair 360 complete and flying for 1/3rd to 1/2 of what it costs to build one, and you can fly it home rather than work on it 2-3 hrs every day for 3 years before flying. The reason to build a plane is because you love the act of creation, not because you want a plane.
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This is true. Build if you have time and a burning desire to build for the sake of building.

Another consideration is that there is less support for an older generation model lancair builder than for say any of the RV's.

If you look, there are 235/320/360 completed planes available for DIRT CHEAP. You might consider buying one that needs work or has mods you would wish to do rather than starting from scratch.
 
FORANE said:
This is true. Build if you have time and a burning desire to build for the sake of building.

Another consideration is that there is less support for an older generation model lancair builder than for say any of the RV's.

If you look, there are 235/320/360 completed planes available for DIRT CHEAP. You might consider buying one that needs work or has mods you would wish to do rather than starting from scratch.
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Yep, same goes for older Glasairs. Parts are still readily available for IIs & IIIs but Is are hard to come by. Thats why you can get old ones cheap right now.

Personally I've never had a parts problem because the majority of parts I require can either be bought from the factory, Aircraft Spruce or they're engine parts that can be found everywhere.
 
JoeSelch said:
How is that U-2 anyways?
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All the aft wing ribs are complete. The stabilator ribs, both forward and aft, are also complete. And last month I just about finished up the two rudders. Just need to put a few stringers and gussets on, as well as the hinges, then those will be complete.

Everything else will be too big to ship back to the States via Uncle Sam mail or checked baggage, so I'm at a stand still until I finally get a place to live.
 
Anymouse said:
All the aft wing ribs are complete. The stabilator ribs, both forward and aft, are also complete. And last month I just about finished up the two rudders. Just need to put a few stringers and gussets on, as well as the hinges, then those will be complete.

Everything else will be too big to ship back to the States via Uncle Sam mail or checked baggage, so I'm at a stand still until I finally get a place to live.
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Well shoot, you're like 90% done!
Actually, I didn't know you were still working on it. Thanks for the update.
 
JoeSelch said:
Well shoot, you're like 90% done!
Actually, I didn't know you were still working on it. Thanks for the update.
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Seeing how I have three aircraft that I don't have time to fly as it is, building the U-2 is a loooooooonnnnnnngggggg term project. But, yeah, all the little stuff is done. Just gotta make big stuff with the little stuff.
 
cocolos said:
So...I've been very heavily thinking about building a lancair 360. I've talked to a couple builders/owners, but I am still not sure about it. Mostly I am still not sure I grasp the amount of work it's going to take. So here are some questions for those building or that have built before:

  • How much time did you commit it to it a week?
    As much as is fun
  • Is it worth it to do a builder assist program?
    Yes, if you are more interested in flying than building.
  • Did you continue to fly often or regularly?
    As much as you can.
  • DId you mostly reach out to the community for help rather than assist programs?
    Builder of your type community
  • Would it be wise to get started on a kit even though I wont have the money for the engine + avionics for another couple of years?
    Sure, you can do a lot before you need the engine and avionics and besides, both of those shouldn't be bought until they are needed to progress on the project.
  • Did you start with some knowledge of the material you were working with, i.e. composite, metal, etc.?
    Yes, but not necessary if you are committed to the project.

I think my biggest concern is that I have 0 knowledge of composites and/or building.
Composites are easy. You learn very quickly and if you screw it up, it's easy to fix or re-do.

All that said; build only if you want to build. If you want the end result and think building is cheapest or best way to get there, you will likely fail to finish the airplane. Find a way to buy and existing plane in that case. It doesn't sound like you have a burning desire to build, it sounds instead like you want
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Geico266 said:
.....Of all the members of POA only a hand full have completed homebuilts. It is an elite ( or crazy) group motivated aviators. You have to decide if you are capable of joining the group.
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Agreed.... We are crazy.....:yes:..

BUT..........

Flying a plane you built on its first flight is a feeling that CANNOT be duplicated......

I enjoyed every minute of the 3000 hours it took to complete my deathtrap...:yes::redface:
 
cocolos said:
I think my biggest concern is that I have 0 knowledge of composites and/or building.

Any advice/tips will be appreciated, thanks!
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Multiply every thing by 10. parts, time, costs.
 
I have built two airplanes myself. A RV7 and a Backcountry Super Cub. I also had the airframe of a Lancair 360 almost done when I developed a severe allergy to the epoxy resin and had to sell the project. As others have told you you have to commit to working on it every day even if only for 1/2 hour to keep the momentum going so it is best to have your workshop at home. A 360 is a big job but the learning curve on composites is fairly easy. I have been building composite stuff for years so it was no big deal. Also it will cost more to build one than to buy but there is no substitute for flying a creation you built.
Now the hard questions. Why A Lancair 360? How big of a guy are you? What kind of flying experience do you have? They are a sexy looking fast airplane with a few quirks. I was in my friend's a couple of weeks ago out messing around and were running between 195and 210kts at around 65%. Also if you decide on one PM me as I know of a complete quickbuild kit that was never started and has everything with it. Don
 
I guess I might be crazy but I have decided to build. I have been thinking about this for a while and I believe that this is what I wanna do for the next several years. I started looking for a two-car garage and should have one by the summer. Meanwhile I will start saving for a kit and start researching composites and will be looking out for the EAA composites class!
 
Tom-D said:
Multiply every thing by 10. parts, time, costs.
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My experience has been twice the cost and four times as long. Everybody's different, but some factor always applies. It seems to be the little details that end up messing up all the estimates.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
My experience has been twice the cost and four times as long. Everybody's different, but some factor always applies. It seems to be the little details that end up messing up all the estimates.

Dan
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My airplane cost about 15% more than I originally predicted. It took twice as long to build in years as I expected, but the actual man hours invested were right on schedule for a slow build RV where I drove every rivet, wired the airplane (and panel), built the engine, and painted the whole shebang.
 
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Seems like the composites tend to be very expensive time consuming to build. Which is why I have my eye on a used glasair or lancair.


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