Home Breaker Panel - Riddle Me This!

[3393RP]

Eddie, read my post above yours again. I made an edit, and it contains important information. You have done a good job of fixing the screwups in the subpanel!

By the way, anytime you need electrical advice, the Mike Holt forum is the best source on the internet for information.

If you join the forum you'll be able to use the search function. It is a great tool for the DIY home owner.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/

 

[FastEddieB]

Eddie, read my post above yours again. I made an edit, and it contains important information. You have done a good job of fixing the screwups in the subpanel!

By the way, anytime you need electrical advice, the Mike Holt forum is the best source on the internet for information.

If you join the forum you'll be able to use the search function. It is a great tool for the DIY home owner.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/

Thanks!

I'm headed to Home Depot later for the ground bar. I likely would have used self-tapping screws without your advice.

The three breakers shown satisfy present needs. I'll probably just leave the second buss unenergized for now, and use a split breaker if I need to add another circuit in the future.

 

[3393RP]

well, ok - me, too ...

I noticed you have some aluminum conductors. I suppose you know this, but it's important to use anti oxidant paste on the wire at breaker terminations and splices.

You should also check the connections occasionally to verify they are secure.

 

[FastEddieB]

I noticed you have some aluminum conductors. I suppose you know this, but it's important to use anti oxidant paste on the wire at breaker terminations and splices.

You should also check the connections occasionally to verify they are secure.

Now on my shopping list.

We recently installed a sub-panel by my travel trailer using 2ga aluminum wire, and I don't recall seeing paste used. It also has a common ground/neutral buss I need to fix.

 

[Norman]

Both installations wired by the same dufuss?

 

[FastEddieB]

Both installations wired by the same dufuss?

Nope.

Though plenty of doofuses in these here parts to go around - present company not excepted!

In any case I think I'm done and ready for a grade on this panel:

Installed the ground buss, and rerouted and/or shortened some wires.

Spoke a bit too soon - more curiousness to follow...

 

[FastEddieB]

Curiousness #1 - I bought a little tester and tested the garage outlets. My heart sank when I saw the lights indicating "Hot/Neu Reverse".

Here's the first outlet I checked:

That's backwards, right? All the diagrams I can find show the white (neutral) going to the wider slot, black to the narrower.

Easy enough to fix, but I'll have to check each outlet - first two both showed reversed on the tester.

 

[JB1842]

Curiousness #1 - I bought a little tester and tested the garage outlets. My heart sank when I saw the lights indicating "Hot/Neu Reverse".

Here's the first outlet I checked:

That's backwards, right? All the diagrams I can find show the white (neutral) going to the wider slot, black to the narrower.

Easy enough to fix, but I'll have to check each outlet - first two both showed reversed on the tester.

The neutral belongs on the side where the ground is attached. I'm doing the electic in my basement right now, and they are all on the left side of the outlet.

 

[N801BH]

Curiousness #1 - I bought a little tester and tested the garage outlets. My heart sank when I saw the lights indicating "Hot/Neu Reverse".

Here's the first outlet I checked:

That's backwards, right? All the diagrams I can find show the white (neutral) going to the wider slot, black to the narrower.

Easy enough to fix, but I'll have to check each outlet - first two both showed reversed on the tester.

YUP... Backasswards.....

Ps.. Nice job on tiddying up the panel//

 

[FastEddieB]

Second curiousness:

Disregard - traced to loose wire nut.

 

[FastEddieB]

Thanks on the backasswards.

Reversing them in a few.

 

[Clark1961]

Second curiousness:

Disregard - traced to loose wire nut.

Thought you'd already fired the handyman

 

[N801BH]

Thought you'd already fired the handyman

I see what you did there.......

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Typically the screws on one side are brass colored and silver colored on the other. Black goes to brass (dark to dark) white to silver (light to light). Easy peasey.

 

[Norman]

Take a look in the circuit breaker panel and see if that's properly wired. The black wires should go to the breakers.

I found the house that was wired backward when I was doing some kitchen work for a friend. When I saw the outlet wired wrong I looked in the panel and discovered the whole house wired wrong.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I love this thread, it almost reminds me of my last visit to family in Mexico. Meter wired directly to house via romex draped in lovely gentle sweeps hanging from a vined concrete wall, then some was buried beneath the garden. No ground wire anywhere in use. Discovered this (lack of main shut-off or distribution panel) when asked to replace a switch that was throwing sparks and shocking people. When I balked, the yardman stepped up, I watched as he changed the live switch. Very impressive.

 

[FastEddieB]

Looks like every outlet in the garage is wired backwards.

Just rewired 4 out of 9 and taking a break.

A couple were easy, one tricky and one really aggravating - wires barely long enough and two had three wires going to two screws, making it difficult for the screw to "grab" both wires. Gave up and used a pigtail and wire nut on one.

Will do the rest at my leisure, including the two in the ceiling that the garage doors plug into.

 

[Dave Theisen]

At least he was consistent.

 

[FastEddieB]

As long as we're at it, here's the sub panel that's fed with 240' of 2ga aluminum wire (3-conductor plus ground) from the house via a 70a breaker:

Each 30a breaker powers an RV-style 120v outlet, the 20A a GFCI standard outlet.

Can we agree all I need to do is mount a separate buss for the grounds? I bought one and there's a spot for it on the lower right.

Oh, and apply the antioxidant where the aluminum wires attach.

Anything else?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I've never like hard 90° bends in wires; larger radius is better in my book.
And only the minimum insulation should be removed to make a connection (leaving little to no bare wire exposed).
I like more of a loop around screws than I think I am seeing in the mis-wired receptacle.
I think there should be some wire poking through a ground bar screw connection...but it should not contact the box...1/8" is enough.

 

[3393RP]

As long as we're at it, here's the sub panel that's fed with 240' of 2ga aluminum wire (3-conductor plus ground) from the house via a 70a breaker:

Each 30a breaker powers an RV-style 120v outlet, the 20A a GFCI standard outlet.

Can we agree all I need to do is mount a separate buss for the grounds? I bought one and there's a spot for it on the lower right.

Oh, and apply the antioxidant where the aluminum wires attach.

Anything else?

You are learning some good stuff about panelboard basics and code requirements for them.

It appears the neutral bar in the RV panel has the bonding screw installed. It is a threaded screw that goes through the plastic dielectric shield which isolates the neutral bar from the steel enclosure and screws into the enclosure to bond the bar to ground.

It's the green headed screw third from the right hand end. That screw has been removed in your other subpanel.

You need to remove it, which will allow the neutral bar to be electrically isolated from the enclosure. I hope this explanation is clear.

I'm pleased to see it appears the Square D ground bar mounted in the subpanel's prethreaded holes. Did it work OK? I just happened to spot them while staring at the photo last night and remembered their function.

 

[N801BH]

I've never like hard 90° bends in wires; larger radius is better in my book.
And only the minimum insulation should be removed to make a connection (leaving little to no bare wire exposed).
I like more of a loop around screws than I think I am seeing in the mis-wired receptacle.
I think there should be some wire poking through a ground bar screw connection...but it should not contact the box...1/8" is enough.

On a new panel / new construction.. It is alot easier to route the wires in a sanitary way with smooth bends.... I really try to make my installs look as professional as possible...

With that said,, I really hate redoing a rats nest of wires since they will have numerous bends, wrinkles, kinks etc etc.... The copper will work harden and getting them straight is next to impossible....

To the OP... Good job on fixing it right...

 

[FastEddieB]

You are learning some good stuff about panelboard basics and code requirements for them.

It appears the neutral bar in the RV panel has the bonding screw installed. It is a threaded screw that goes through the plastic dielectric shield which isolates the neutral bar from the steel enclosure and screws into the enclosure to bond the bar to ground.

It's the green headed screw third from the right hand end. That screw has been removed in your other subpanel.

You need to remove it, which will allow the neutral bar to be electrically isolated from the enclosure. I hope this explanation is clear.

I'm pleased to see it appears the Square D ground bar mounted in the subpanel's prethreaded holes. Did it work OK? I just happened to spot them while staring at the photo last night and remembered their function.

Thanks for the head's up on the green bonding screw. I had noticed it but did not understand its function. I guess with that in place both the neutrals and grounds are still bonding via the box, which is what the seperate buss is trying to avoid.

Yes, on my garage sub-panel the ground bar holes perfectly aligned with the tapped holes in the box, making it easy. The RV panel has one set of those holes on the lower right, which appears manageable.

 

[gismo]

The three breakers shown satisfy present needs. I'll probably just leave the second buss unenergized for now, and use a split breaker if I need to add another circuit in the future.

If you leave the 50A breaker as the bus feed you can use all the slots if you just tie the two busses together with a 6 ga wire. While not exactly orthodox, that's safe and doesn't violate any section of the NEC AFaIK.

And if you replace the DP 50A CB with a SP version you could put 5 single or double 15/20 A CBs in the panel although that would likely exceed the NEC limits for a 50A panel fed with 120V.

 

[gkainz]

I noticed you have some aluminum conductors. I suppose you know this, but it's important to use anti oxidant paste on the wire at breaker terminations and splices.

You should also check the connections occasionally to verify they are secure.

yep, except didn't use NoALox ... had some anti-oxidant paste left over from my lineman days ... don't even recall the brand now.

 

[Jim_CAK]

Nope.

Though plenty of doofuses in these here parts to go around - present company not excepted!

In any case I think I'm done and ready for a grade on this panel:

Installed the ground buss, and rerouted and/or shortened some wires.

Spoke a bit too soon - more curiousness to follow...

I have sure learned a lot from this thread. I am afraid if I post a picture from the sub panel in my garage, this thread will go 5 more pages.
One question - on that new ground bus, does it need a seperate ground rod, or is the ground tied to the main panel ground ok? (Talking about a sub panel in a seperate building)

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I have sure learned a lot from this thread. I am afraid if I post a picture from the sub panel in my garage, this thread will go 5 more pages.

You say that like it is a bad thing!

One question - on that new ground bus, does it need a seperate ground rod, or is the ground tied to the main panel ground ok? (Talking about a sub panel in a seperate building)

I think it depends.

The inspector had me put in a ground rod in addition to the ground wire back to the main panel.

 

[N801BH]

You say that like it is a bad thing!


I think it depends.

The inspector had me put in a ground rod in addition to the ground wire back to the main panel.

Same rule out here too.. If there is a separate panel then they need a separate ground rod... And if it new construction, that footer needs a Uffer ground tied to the rebar in it...

 

[JGoodish]

Some thoughts in addition to the general good advice that has already been provided:

1. According to the NEC, if you have more than 6 disconnects in a panel, a main disconnect is required. A tandem breaker without a handle tie technically counts as two disconnects.

2. Since you are using a main lug only panel here, if you choose to back feed a breaker as the main disconnect (as was originally depicted in your picture), the breaker must have a retaining clip or screw to hold it in place.

3. If this is a detached building and a panel is involved, a separate ground rod is required according to the NEC. I've seen inspectors willingly overlook this in certain circumstances.

4. I hope that white cable entering on the lower left of the panel is 12AWG and not 14AWG, otherwise you need to replace the 20 amp breaker on that circuit with a 15 amp or pull the proper size wire for that circuit. This is a fire risk if the wire is undersized for the breaker.

The cleanup looks good so far.


JKG

 

[Old Geek]

Just out of curiosity, would there be a problem with OP installing a properly sized jumper from the hot bus over to the dead bus, giving him 3 more breaker locations?

 

[FastEddieB]

Some thoughts in addition to the general good advice that has already been provided:

1. According to the NEC, if you have more than 6 disconnects in a panel, a main disconnect is required. A tandem breaker without a handle tie technically counts as two disconnects.

2. Since you are using a main lug only panel here, if you choose to back feed a breaker as the main disconnect (as was originally depicted in your picture), the breaker must have a retaining clip or screw to hold it in place.

3. If this is a detached building and a panel is involved, a separate ground rod is required according to the NEC. I've seen inspectors willingly overlook this in certain circumstances.

4. I hope that white cable entering on the lower left of the panel is 12AWG and not 14AWG, otherwise you need to replace the 20 amp breaker on that circuit with a 15 amp or pull the proper size wire for that circuit. This is a fire risk if the wire is undersized for the breaker.

The cleanup looks good so far.


JKG

Thanks - a lot to absorb.

For the RV panel 240 yards from the house, a ground rod would be the most conservative choice?

I know they sell them at Home Depot. Just drive it into the ground and run a wire from the ground buss I'll be installing? How heavy a gauge would be adequate? Any gotchas?

BTW, my garage is tacked onto the back of my house. Maybe 75' from the main panel. Probably would not hurt to have a ground rod there as well?

Oh, and that is 12ga Romex running in conduit to a GFCI outlet about 30' from the house.

 

[FastEddieB]

If the garage is attached to the house and not a separate building, a separate ground rod is not required.

If that Romex running in conduit isn't UF (underground feeder) cable then it's not technically legal.

But at the RV panel a ground rod might be a good thing?

Let me check on that cable we ran - I have a piece somewhere.

 

[N801BH]

But at the RV panel a ground rod might be a good thing?

Let me check on that cable we ran - I have a piece somewhere.

That is one of the "quirks" in the NEC..... You can lay UF romex directly in the ground 30" down with out conduit and be legal...

But.......

Install conduit and pull NM romex through it and it is illegal........

Go Figure...

 

[JGoodish]

That is one of the "quirks" in the NEC..... You can lay UF romex directly in the ground 30" down with out conduit and be legal...

But.......

Install conduit and pull NM romex through it and it is illegal........

Go Figure...

The issue here is that NM cable is not rated for wet locations, which underground conduit is considered to be.


JKG

 

[JGoodish]

But at the RV panel a ground rod might be a good thing?

Let me check on that cable we ran - I have a piece somewhere.

I've never done a RV post, so I can't say if there are any code exceptions, but if not then the ground rod would be required.

The ground rod for separate structures exists to shunt lightning to ground, but I'm not sure what differences, if any, would apply to a RV versus a stationary structure in this regard.


JKG

 

[FastEddieB]

Googling I'm learning a lot.

First, the consensus is that seperate ground and neutral busses are required.

Found this code for Pickens, SC (just the first that popped up):

Electrical Power for an R.V.
1. You must have the three (3)-prong RV plug with an “In-Use” cover.
2. 110-volt outlets must be Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI) protected and enclosed in an “In-Use” Cover.
3. 50 amps maximum.
4. You must have two (2) 8-foot ground rods 16 feet apart.

 

[Unbeliever]

How about stripping a bit of insulation off the black wire and running it through the buss terminal on the left on its way to the one on the right? Not now, necessarily, but if I ever need more circuits in the future.

You don't want to do mid-cable stripping like that. If you're going to y-split the feed to connect to both buses, you want a real terminal block. Something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/NSI-Industries-IPL4-3A-Insulated-Multi-Cable/dp/B008KNX45M/

--Carlos V.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I did a box recently too, check it out! Gotta say I'm feelin' like I'm pretty hot stuff; have a look.
Whatd'ya think, uh?uh? Isn't that the finest piece of Sparkyism you've seen? Now don't get all nitpicky on me, you know it's awesome!

 

[N801BH]

I did a box recently too, check it out! Gotta say I'm feelin' like I'm pretty hot stuff; have a look.
Whatd'ya think, uh?uh? Isn't that the finest piece of Sparkyism you've seen? Now don't get all nitpicky on me, you know it's awesome!

Remind me to NEVER have to clean up that kind of rats nest...........


Ps.. I am sure it was ok in the end...

 

[Jim_CAK]

You say that like it is a bad thing!


I think it depends.

The inspector had me put in a ground rod in addition to the ground wire back to the main panel.

In the case where you add a ground rod and isolate the ground bus on the sub panel, do you still tie the ground wire from the main panel to the ground bus in the sub panel? Is there a potential for "potential" between the grounds with house wiring?