Home Breaker Panel - Riddle Me This!

FastEddieB

FastEddieB

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Fast Eddie B
I had my garage built about 7 years ago by a contractor/handyman/good ol' boy, who also wired it.

In any case, all the outlets and lights and garage door openers have worked fine.

But recently I wanted to add a breaker for an outdoor outlet and I'm a bit stumped.

This is how the panel is wired:

20927727540_d622741b96_c.jpg


Looks like he brought just one hot (black wire), one neutral (white wire) and a ground from our main panel via the upper left side punchout. Wired the hot to the 50A breaker screw at A. This is powering Bus D throughout the breaker. So the two 20A breakers work to supply everything via Bus D.

But the empty slots powered by Bus B provide nothing, having been hooked up to the neutral via terminal A.

Looks like he did it this way to provide a master breaker/cutoff.

Seems like the neutral should have gone to F for the neutrals and grounds, the hot to B and jumped to E (barely visible on the right) where a second hot wire would normally go. That would provide current to both busses, D & C. But with no master breaker.

Any thoughts? Is what's shown in the photo a common way to wire a breaker panel or just jury-rigged and wrong?

Thanks. I understand a bit about electricity and wiring but have not done very much with home wiring before.
 
Ouch.... yea,.. this is a little out there. He only brought over 1 pole from the main house.

First, it is a sub-panel, and the small white neutrals and grounds are not permitted to be on the same bar. Sub-panels are not to be bonded.

Fix there would be to have a small bar screwed to the backwall of the panel and move the ground from the incoming supply and then the grounds from the lines going out.

Currently, check and see how this is wired in your house. It is working on this end because it is bonded.

The White should go to "F" not "B" after the grounds are moved.

Side "B" and "C" will not be energized. Typically, if you wanted this, you would have a red line attached there from the main panel. This would be feeding from an opposite Bus in the main panel from the Large Black feed.

He is using the connection at "A" as a main breaker for this panel to shut off everything.

Your first breaker is double tapped. This is also not permitted. If you want, you can join both of those together first to a third pigtail wire, which then is anchored by the screw in that breaker. Hopefully this is just lights, and not receptacles. I wouldn't recommend pigtailing for receptacles.

And yes, you could jump B to E like you mentioned to feed both sides ( C and D), but just watch your load and what you are connected to at the main panel,... and you still must separate neutrals and grounds.
 
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Typically a Sub-panel would be fed like this... (not my image, this is a quick find from Google)

White is neutral, ground is to separate ground bar, Black and Red feed each side of the bus.
 

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I just have a gut feeling that panel would elicit screams from the electrical inspector.
 
Mine was wired just like that (bonded grounds on a sub-panel) and seems to have passed. And was messier (~20 breakers)... good thing the previous owner had to pay to fix it :).
 
Thanks for the feedback.

Especially about not bonding the neutral and grounds on sub panels. I have one other box with that same issue. Should be easy to fix.

Out here in rural N GA there's virtually no code enforcement or inspections for this sort of thing. Maybe there's supposed to be, but nobody does.
 
Really need to see the other side to know what he was trying to do. Also need to know if it is an attached garage. That will affect what is required for grounding and bonding. What cycle of the NEC will also come into play.

Jim
 
Just saw your post of no code enforcement, this will allow you to comply with a cycle that lets you treat a sub panel in a detached building (assuming it is) a little more favorable given what you have feeding it.
 
Also, why the proscription on bonded grounds and neutrals in sub-panels? Is it a shock hazard? If so, what's the mechanism?

And finally, then why don't these sub-panels come with separate busses in the first place?
 
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FastEddieB said:
But the empty slots powered by Bus B provide nothing, having been hooked up to the neutral via terminal A.

Looks like he did it this way to provide a master breaker/cutoff.
Click to expand...



120V only panels are legal. Just connect/pigtail the same hot to both legs on the input.

Hire an electrician for a simple clean-up. The only material he will charge you for is another bus bar to separate neutral and ground and a pigtail for connecting the hot leg to the other bus. All the wire and hardware is already there. It's a cheap job. You don't need to pull any new cable from the main load center to this one.

--Carlos V.
 
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FastEddieB said:
Also, why the proscription on bonded grounds and neutrals in sub-panels? Is it a shock hazard? If so, what's the mechanism?
Click to expand...

Neutral and ground are bonded at the main load center and ONLY at the main load center, and no where else. (with a tie to the earth ground somewhere near at that point.)

Neutral is the current carrying wire. Ground is the safety wire and should NOT carry current. With any wire, if you run current across it, there will be a voltage difference between the ends of the wire. So, under load, the neutral wire will see a "lift" in the voltage (it will be slightly above "zero volts").

On most devices, the chassis is connected to the ground pin. If you've connected ground anywhere downstream of the main load center, the ground wire will see the same "lift" that is on the neutral wire, and that results in an energized equipment chassis. Enough volts on the chassis and you'll get zapped.

FastEddieB said:
And finally, then why don't these sub-panels come with separate busses in the first place?
Click to expand...

Because it's a generic load center that can be used for main or sub panel use depending on how it's wired up. If you want to use it as a sub panel, you buy another bus bar with insulating spacers to isolate it from the box.

Edit: I can't see completely due to the angle of the picture, but I think your box's bus bar IS isolated and can be used for the neutral bus. If it's mounted completely on that plastic and its mounting bolts don't touch the box, it's good to go for neutral. In that case, the 2nd bus bar will be installed directly onto the box for the ground/earth bus bar (bonding the box to ground/earth as well).

--Carlos V.
 
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Hmm. I don't see where earth/ground is coming from the main feed line. If that's the case, then the electrician does need to pull wire.

And help me out, I don't see where B is connected to the bus bar. Where's the return?


--Carlos V.
 
Unbeliever said:
...

Hire an electrician for a simple clean-up.

...

--Carlos V.
Click to expand...

An electrician should be pretty easy to find, and with good references. The hard work seems like it's done, he'll just need to work with what's there. It's also an opportunity to get a business card in case you want to add a few other odds and ends over the years (like a new breaker for an outdoor outlet.)
 
Unbeliever said:
Hmm. I don't see where earth/ground is coming from the main feed line. If that's the case, then the electrician does need to pull wire.

And help me out, I don't see where B is connected to the bus bar. Where's the return?


--Carlos V.
Click to expand...

If you look closely, one of the grounds is a little thicker (10ga?) than the others - that emanates from the feed at the upper left with the black and white.

Good question about the neutral feeding into B. I can't trace it anywhere either.

Let me go look again.
 
This is a great explanation. My home inspector wasn't quite as clear...

Also, what if the netural wire connection is broken? Then you've got a fully live box/ground as well, correct?

Unbeliever said:
Neutral and ground are bonded at the main load center and ONLY at the main load center, and no where else. (with a tie to the earth ground somewhere near at that point.)

Neutral is the current carrying wire. Ground is the safety wire and should NOT carry current. With any wire, if you run current across it, there will be a voltage difference between the ends of the wire. So, under load, the neutral wire will see a "lift" in the voltage (it will be slightly above "zero volts").

On most devices, the chassis is connected to the ground pin. If you've connected ground anywhere downstream of the main load center, the ground wire will see the same "lift" that is on the neutral wire, and that results in an energized equipment chassis. Enough volts on the chassis and you'll get zapped.



Because it's a generic load center that can be used for main or sub panel use depending on how it's wired up. If you want to use it as a sub panel, you buy another bus bar with insulating spacers to isolate it from the box.

Edit: I can't see completely due to the angle of the picture, but I think your box's bus bar IS isolated and can be used for the neutral bus. If it's mounted completely on that plastic and its mounting bolts don't touch the box, it's good to go for neutral. In that case, the 2nd bus bar will be installed directly onto the box for the ground/earth bus bar (bonding the box to ground/earth as well).

--Carlos V.
Click to expand...
 
Rob Schaffer said:
Your first breaker is double tapped. This is also not permitted.
Click to expand...

That depends on the design of the breaker. For the above pic, I see the double-tap symbol on the breaker. (look right above the circle-SA symbol). So that double-tap is OK.

--Carlos V.
 
Double tap symbol:

attachment.php


--Carlos V.
 

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Here's a closer look with the 50A removed:

21117931345_21ca669e4f_z.jpg


Sure looks like the neutral is a dead end. However, there is continuity between the upper buss and the terminal strip above. Could that just be via the bonding at the main panel?

Now I'm even more confused. Bear in mind that has been working fine for years!
 
1) you have a black and a white wire coming in. In an ideal world (or even a reasonable world) the black would be "hot" and the white would be "neutral". But, I see the fat white wire connected where it should not be if it were, in fact, neutral. Step 1, take your voltmeter and measure the difference between the black and white wires - 110 (or so) the white is probably neutral, 220 then both wires are hot and you should really tape the white wire with some black tape.

Assuming you only have 110 and the white is "neutral" it should probably go to F (no way to be sure from just a picture, but something is just wrong) and you would want to install a separate buss for the ground wires. Also, said ground should go back to the main panel, there may be a bare copper wire going that way. You may or may not wish to also install a ground rod for a detached building. What I don't see is how current from your garage circuits is finding it's way back to the main unless it's through a totally inadequate bare wire. Bad news.

Iffen you have 220 between the black and white wires, then you are missing the neutral. There appears that there may be a bare wire going back to the main panel that must be serving as a ground and/or neutral, but it's way inadequate. Again, bad news.

Figure out if you have 110 or 220 between the big wires first.
 
scottfromboston said:
Also, what if the netural wire connection is broken? Then you've got a fully live box/ground as well, correct?
Click to expand...

If neutral is broken (on a properly wired system), anything that's plugged into those circuits won't work, and you have a deceptively "off" box since there's still hot being applied and you'll get zapped if you touch the wrong thing.

On an improperly wired system, with ground and neutral tied together, then if neutral gets disconnected, you likely have a fire hazard as most grounds are not sized to carry any appreciable current, even on main feed lines.

--Carlos V.
 
FastEddieB said:
Sure looks like the neutral is a dead end. However, there is continuity between the upper buss and the terminal strip above. Could that just be via the bonding at the main panel?
Click to expand...

Yes. And that means you have a fire hazard. Get it fixed.

--Carlos V.
 
FastEddieB said:
Here's a closer look with the 50A removed:

21117931345_21ca669e4f_z.jpg


Sure looks like the neutral is a dead end. However, there is continuity between the upper buss and the terminal strip above. Could that just be via the bonding at the main panel?

Now I'm even more confused. Bear in mind that has been working fine for years!
Click to expand...

Ok, so, the white is a neutral, and back at the main the white and ground are connected. That would give you the continuity. I suspect that if you disconnect the white wire the continuity between the upper buss and the terminal strip will go away.

If all my assumptions are correct, whoever wired that panel effed up big time and your current is flowing to the main panel via the inadequate bare copper wire. Move the white wire to the correct lug.

"Bear in mind that has been working fine for years!"
Then someone just hasn't had enough stuff plugged in at the same time to start the fire when the ground wire overloaded.
 
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Yah, that's a much better picture. Connect what's now in B to F. (assuming it really is a neutral wire).

(and first turning off the breaker for the subpanel feed at the main panel first)

--Carlos V.
 
Quick and dirty:

Move B to F.

Move A to E, and get rid of the breaker.

Buy another bus bar and mount it to the box, and move all the bare wires to that bus bar.

What worries me is that if the previous guy put a "master breaker" in that manner in the sub panel, that there's no breaker for the subpanel in the main panel. Making it necessary to kill power to the house to make it safe to work on.

Get an electrician.

--Carlos V.
 
That gives you 1 hot bus and 1 dead bus, but since you got rid of the 50A, that leaves you with a free hot slot remaining to add your new circuit.

--Carlos V.
 
Plan that's forming...

1) Go to Home Depot and score a ground buss and mount it.

2) Disconnect via main breaker at our main box.

3) Move white to F

4) Remove 50A entirely*

5) Hook black to B with same gauge wire jumping to E

6) Mount all bare ground wires to new ground buss, keep white wires on buss connected to F.

That sound about right?

*I would no longer have a cutoff. Should I maybe install one inline, or is it enough to just switch off breakers individually?
 
Here's a thought: You house is going to burn down if you dont take that panel out and do it correctly.
 
FastEddieB said:
Plan that's forming...

1) Go to Home Depot and score a ground buss and mount it.

2) Disconnect via main breaker at our main box.

3) Move white to F

4) Remove 50A entirely*

5) Hook black to B with same gauge wire jumping to E

6) Mount all bare ground wires to new ground buss, keep white wires on buss connected to F.

That sound about right?

*I would no longer have a cutoff. Should I maybe install one inline, or is it enough to just switch off breakers individually?
Click to expand...

That would be 1000% better than what you have now.
 
Eddie,

Given that you're working with a bunch of unknowns and that it's difficult to diagnose the problem from pictures and descriptions I think it'd be wise for you to consult a licensed electrician. One screw up could cost you your house.
 
Norman said:
Eddie,

Given that you're working with a bunch of unknowns and that it's difficult to diagnose the problem from pictures and descriptions I think it'd be wise for you to consult a licensed electrician. One screw up could cost you your house.
Click to expand...

It could even shorten your screwdriver.
 
FastEddieB said:
I had my garage built about 7 years ago by a contractor/handyman/good ol' boy, who also wired it.

In any case, all the outlets and lights and garage door openers have worked fine.

But recently I wanted to add a breaker for an outdoor outlet and I'm a bit stumped.

This is how the panel is wired:

20927727540_d622741b96_c.jpg


Looks like he brought just one hot (black wire), one neutral (white wire) and a ground from our main panel via the upper left side punchout. Wired the hot to the 50A breaker screw at A. This is powering Bus D throughout the breaker. So the two 20A breakers work to supply everything via Bus D.

But the empty slots powered by Bus B provide nothing, having been hooked up to the neutral via terminal A.

Looks like he did it this way to provide a master breaker/cutoff.

Seems like the neutral should have gone to F for the neutrals and grounds, the hot to B and jumped to E (barely visible on the right) where a second hot wire would normally go. That would provide current to both busses, D & C. But with no master breaker.

Any thoughts? Is what's shown in the photo a common way to wire a breaker panel or just jury-rigged and wrong?

Thanks. I understand a bit about electricity and wiring but have not done very much with home wiring before.
Click to expand...

This is a simple 20 amp single phase sub panel. the 50 amp breaker feeds the other breakers. the bare copper and neutral white are permitted to be on the same strip.

This was permitted when the panel was installed. but no longer a practice authorized by the state inspectors. ( here anyway)

Here is my 50 2 phase sub panel I just installed in my new shop. was inspected this morning and passed.

Be back in a bit with pictures.
 
I didn't read all the posts.. But.. Looks to me like a 220 panel... The black heavy gauge wire is one hot 120v wire... The heavy white wire is the other 120v hot wire.. he is supposed to color it black with black tape... That feed is ok but needs a color change.. The big problem is you need a heavy neutral wire too along with a #2 ground wire.... ... IMHO..... YMMV...
 
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