Help with the FAA, please

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jun 6, 2008
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Ingleside, TX
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Jay Honeck
I have been trying to re-register my plane from my (now closed/defunct) Iowa Corporation into my new Texas corporation's name since March -- without success. I've submitted the Form 8050-1 paperwork three times. Each time the FAA has cashed my $5.00 check and returned the paperwork with more and more incomprehensible bureaucrat-speak instructions.

The transaction is basically a sale of the airplane from one corporation to another (although no actual money changed hands, since we own both corporations). In reality, though, from the FAA's standpoint it's really just a company name change, and I wish to hell I had presented it to them that way, as I think it would have been a lot easier.

I didn't, though, foolishly thinking this would be a simple task. :mad2:

Between my wife and I -- two college educated professionals -- we cannot figure out what the government wants. Let's see if you guys and gals can help?

Here's what a lady named "Donna Thompson", a "Legal Instruments Examiner" in Oklahoma City, has sent me, word for word, in a form letter with 16 little boxes, of which two are 'x'd" off.

1. "Submit a corrected Aircraft Registration Application, signed in INK (their capitalization), including typed or printed name of signer in signature block. Form enclosed."

2. "The application should be corrected by drawing one line through information shown on line only for a "voting trustee" and name and title of corporate officer. Also, draw only one line through name of state and address on line (1)b, since applicant is not a non-citizen corporation. No other alteration should be made since applicatinos can not be accepted when corrections are made by markouts or use of whiteout. (Correction line should not obscure any of the forms words or it can't be accepted. A new form is enclosed, if needed.)

WRT to Instruction #1, that is exactly what I've done three times, so I don't know what they are looking for.

WRT to Instruction #2, unfortunately Ms. Thompson never indicates what was wrong with the last form I submitted, so I have no clue what I'm supposed to draw a line through, or why I should have to do so.

I suppose I should view this form letter as "progress", since it at least contains specific (if incomprehensible) instructions. We're working in the right direction here!

Any FAA gurus here? Anyone know anyone in OKC that can explain what they want from me? All I want to do is change the freaking name of my corporation on the registration!
 
I just hire one of the escrow companies in OKC to do all that stuff. They deal with the FAA registry people every day on a first-name basis, and can accomplish more in ten minutes than anybody else can accomplish in three months--as you now understand as well as anybody.​

Jay Honeck said:
I have been trying to re-register my plane from my (now closed/defunct) Iowa Corporation into my new Texas corporation's name since March -- without success. I've submitted the Form 8050-1 paperwork three times. Each time the FAA has cashed my $5.00 check and returned the paperwork with more and more incomprehensible bureaucrat-speak instructions.

The transaction is basically a sale of the airplane from one corporation to another (although no actual money changed hands, since we own both corporations). In reality, though, from the FAA's standpoint it's really just a company name change, and I wish to hell I had presented it to them that way, as I think it would have been a lot easier.

I didn't, though, foolishly thinking this would be a simple task. :mad2:

Between my wife and I -- two college educated professionals -- we cannot figure out what the government wants. Let's see if you guys and gals can help?

Here's what a lady named "Donna Thompson", a "Legal Instruments Examiner" in Oklahoma City, has sent me, word for word, in a form letter with 16 little boxes, of which two are 'x'd" off.

1. "Submit a corrected Aircraft Registration Application, signed in INK (their capitalization), including typed or printed name of signer in signature block. Form enclosed."

2. "The application should be corrected by drawing one line through information shown on line only for a "voting trustee" and name and title of corporate officer. Also, draw only one line through name of state and address on line (1)b, since applicant is not a non-citizen corporation. No other alteration should be made since applicatinos can not be accepted when corrections are made by markouts or use of whiteout. (Correction line should not obscure any of the forms words or it can't be accepted. A new form is enclosed, if needed.)

WRT to Instruction #1, that is exactly what I've done three times, so I don't know what they are looking for.

WRT to Instruction #2, unfortunately Ms. Thompson never indicates what was wrong with the last form I submitted, so I have no clue what I'm supposed to draw a line through, or why I should have to do so.

I suppose I should view this form letter as "progress", since it at least contains specific (if incomprehensible) instructions. We're working in the right direction here!

Any FAA gurus here? Anyone know anyone in OKC that can explain what they want from me? All I want to do is change the freaking name of my corporation on the registration!
Click to expand...
 
1. Legally, you *are* transferring it from one owner to another.

2. What Wayne said. They just handle it, ba-da-bing.
 
Aircraft Certification: Contact the Aircraft Registration Branch

Office Hours:
Monday through Friday
7:30 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. Central Time
By Telephone
Aircraft Registration / N-Number Information and Assistance
Toll Free Long Distance(866) 762-9434
International & Local Oklahoma City Area(405) 954-3116
 
yea, give them a call Jay. My last glider purchase got kicked back, can't remember the reason now. I probably forgot to fill out a box or something. Actually I think i may have signed my name where I was supposed to print and vice versa. I made a quick call to verify what the issue was and got it right the second time around. They were pretty friendly and helpful over the phone.
 
Have you actually called OKC?

I had an issue with the registration on my airplane when I bought it a couple months ago - turns out I missed the fine print that says to print name next to signature. So even though they had my printed name elsewhere on the bill of sale, they kicked it back for that. I called OKC and the guy I spoke with was able to explain everything much more clearly than the letter I got and I was able to get it resolved fairly quickly.
 
Never let this kind of thing get to you, it is no reflection on you or your intelligence. You are dealing with a bureaucrat who works for a bureaucracy, it is their job to have as much busy work as is possible. The higher the stack of paper in their "in" box, the more important and needed they seem to be.

Also, having lots of mail being routed to them on a daily basis is a great enhancement to this image of importance they have of themselves.

It is not in their interest to solve any problem with just one letter or mailing. Instructions are deliberately confusing and vague. They will never require more than one piece of information at a time. If multiple items or pieces of information are required, they will never be requested all at one time, in the form of a list. Each required piece of information will be requested in an individual mailing.

We, as taxpayers, employ many millions of these bureaucrats, we can not have them sitting around not shuffling papers or information, they must look busy, it's what we want.

If you want to keep them happy, forget what it is you need to accomplish, and just play their paper shuffling game. Once you understand it, it can be lots of fun. Like copy their form onto a colored piece of paper and fill it in correctly, then snail mail it to them.

The copy will be returned, along with a new form, with a request that you use their original form. Send them a letter explaining why you had to copy their form, such as spilled coffee or something, and the colored paper was all that was loaded in your copier at the time. Apologize and congratulate them for being so alert, and explain the new form will be forthcoming.

As long as you are diligently communicating with them, it does not matter what your original mission was, your safe either way.

It is fun trying to out bureaucrat a bureaucrat. Do not expect to be the winner of this game though, remember, you are dealing with a professional. It's the game that's the fun.

John
 
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These are the people who will kick back an application for not having a date in their format, even when it is patently clear what date it is. And this in a country where we use as stupid a format for a date as you can dream up.
Computers 20110617 because it sorts well. Europe likes 17062011 which is in progression. The U.S. military likes 17 June 2011 rather than what some, but not all, other agencies use which is June 17th, 2011. At least it's not the 17th instant, as was used in old England.
And, I've had telephone numbers kicked back because I used a dot rather than a hyphen as a delimiter. A dot is faster, takes less effort and is probably more accurate to type. Grrrr.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Have you actually called OKC?

I had an issue with the registration on my airplane when I bought it a couple months ago - turns out I missed the fine print that says to print name next to signature. So even though they had my printed name elsewhere on the bill of sale, they kicked it back for that. I called OKC and the guy I spoke with was able to explain everything much more clearly than the letter I got and I was able to get it resolved fairly quickly.
Click to expand...

This happened to me when we transferred the plane from my parents to me and my wife. I liked how they have a form letter with all of the common mistakes. Instead of making the form better, they came up with another form to tell you what you did wrong.
 
Oh jeez Jay, you are not actually flying a misregistered aircraft, are you?????
Man, I can see Gitmo in your future... In fact you don't have to fly it, merely being in possession of an aircraft with questionable registration is a Class 1 felony - after all it carries liquid IED's in the wings, donchaknow...... Wait till Pricksilla, the HSA supervising agent reads about it... She will have you spread eagled over a trash bin while she cavity searches you, you terrorist so and so... You better pray that the day she finds you she is carrying her smooth baton, not the one with the knobbies on the end... Man, I don't think I will be able to sleep tonight worrying about you...

denny-o
 
Dr. O said:
Oh jeez Jay, you are not actually flying a misregistered aircraft, are you?????
Click to expand...
No, he's legal - when this sort of thing happens, the FAA issues an extension to the temp registration.

If you look up his N-number on the FAA site, it will tell you that the registration is pending and that an extension was issued.

I had the same thing when I botched my Bill of Sale.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
No, he's legal - when this sort of thing happens, the FAA issues an extension to the temp registration.

If you look up his N-number on the FAA site, it will tell you that the registration is pending and that an extension was issued.

I had the same thing when I botched my Bill of Sale.
Click to expand...

Only true if the registration hasn't expired. If your registration HAS expired, the airplane is grounded until you get the renewal.
 
TMetzinger said:
Only true if the registration hasn't expired. If your registration HAS expired, the airplane is grounded until you get the renewal.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you're getting at - this isn't a case of registation expiring. He is essentially transferring ownership. There is no renewal - look up his registration (it is in his avatar) - they issued an extension.

When he submitted the Bill of Sale he would have retained the pink slip which is the temporary registration. As long as he has the temporary registration and the extension letter, the aircraft is good to go.

Even if his original registration was set to expire at the end of March, he would still be good, since he is transferring ownership.
 
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Fearless Tower said:
Not sure what you're getting at - this isn't a case of registation expiring. He is essentially transferring ownership. There is no renewal - look up his registration (it is in his avatar) - they issued an extension.

When he submitted the Bill of Sale he would have retained the pink slip which is the temporary registration. As long as he has the temporary registration and the extension letter, the aircraft is good to go.

Even if his original registration was set to expire at the end of March, he would still be good, since he is transferring ownership.
Click to expand...

Just a reminder that registrations DO expire now, and if you forget, you're screwed while you wait. I don't know what the process would be for transferring ownership if a registration expired... but I'd bet they would make the original owner renew before the transfer got processed, and then hit the new owner up for the registration fee.
 
Jay,
Did you call them and ask for help? I had some trouble, I can't remember what, with a registration once. One phone call to a very helpful FAA employee solved the problem.
Jay Honeck said:
I have been trying to re-register my plane from my (now closed/defunct) Iowa Corporation into my new Texas corporation's name since March -- without success. I've submitted the Form 8050-1 paperwork three times. Each time the FAA has cashed my $5.00 check and returned the paperwork with more and more incomprehensible bureaucrat-speak instructions.

The transaction is basically a sale of the airplane from one corporation to another (although no actual money changed hands, since we own both corporations). In reality, though, from the FAA's standpoint it's really just a company name change, and I wish to hell I had presented it to them that way, as I think it would have been a lot easier.

I didn't, though, foolishly thinking this would be a simple task. :mad2:

Between my wife and I -- two college educated professionals -- we cannot figure out what the government wants. Let's see if you guys and gals can help?

Here's what a lady named "Donna Thompson", a "Legal Instruments Examiner" in Oklahoma City, has sent me, word for word, in a form letter with 16 little boxes, of which two are 'x'd" off.

1. "Submit a corrected Aircraft Registration Application, signed in INK (their capitalization), including typed or printed name of signer in signature block. Form enclosed."

2. "The application should be corrected by drawing one line through information shown on line only for a "voting trustee" and name and title of corporate officer. Also, draw only one line through name of state and address on line (1)b, since applicant is not a non-citizen corporation. No other alteration should be made since applicatinos can not be accepted when corrections are made by markouts or use of whiteout. (Correction line should not obscure any of the forms words or it can't be accepted. A new form is enclosed, if needed.)

WRT to Instruction #1, that is exactly what I've done three times, so I don't know what they are looking for.

WRT to Instruction #2, unfortunately Ms. Thompson never indicates what was wrong with the last form I submitted, so I have no clue what I'm supposed to draw a line through, or why I should have to do so.

I suppose I should view this form letter as "progress", since it at least contains specific (if incomprehensible) instructions. We're working in the right direction here!

Any FAA gurus here? Anyone know anyone in OKC that can explain what they want from me? All I want to do is change the freaking name of my corporation on the registration!
Click to expand...
 
David said:
Jay,
Did you call them and ask for help? I had some trouble, I can't remember what, with a registration once. One phone call to a very helpful FAA employee solved the problem.
Click to expand...

This was my experience as well. I called to ask what I needed to do to get my address changed on the registration. The lady I spoke with said "You're supposed to send in a form (or letter...whatever). I'm not supposed to do this, but if you can tell me your SSN or Cert number or some unique ID, I'll just do it over the phone. "

And she did.
 
John Baker said:
The higher the stack of paper in their "in" box, the more important and needed they seem to be.

Also, having lots of mail being routed to them on a daily basis is a great enhancement to this image of importance they have of themselves.


John
Click to expand...

Well gee John, if this is the metric then they need to transfer me to the White House.
 
kyleb said:
This was my experience as well. I called to ask what I needed to do to get my address changed on the registration. The lady I spoke with said "You're supposed to send in a form (or letter...whatever). I'm not supposed to do this, but if you can tell me your SSN or Cert number or some unique ID, I'll just do it over the phone. "

And she did.
Click to expand...

I make it a practice to never, ever, EVER call the government, for any reason. State, Federal, local, it doesn't matter -- life is too short, and I simply cannot contain my anger and frustration when I am forced to deal with these people.

My ONE exception, in four businesses and 20+ years of dealing with crap like this: In 1994-ish, I had a major problem with the IRS. They had misapplied my 941 (employee withholding) payments to my 940 (Federal Unemployment) account.

In the real world, outside of the la-la land of gummint, this would have been a simple, two-second correction. With the IRS, it was a HUGE deal, leading to threatening letters, threats to seize our assets, blah blah blah. There was no problem too small or too simple to not be blown away with an atom bomb, and that's what the IRS used on everyone.

Finally, after a dozen phone calls, I finally got ahold of Mabel, in South Carolina. Mabel was an old black woman who had worked in the IRS bureaucracy for some 40 years, and she knew everything about everything.

She was the only person in the 150,000-person IRS who could fix the problem. She did whatever she did, thanked me for calling, and I've never heard from the IRS again.

Please, for the love of God, don't make me call the FAA randomly. Doesn't anyone here know the FAA's version of "Mabel"? :confused:
 
lol Jay, the FAA is a not fun bureaucracy but they are no IRS, and many of us have found the people on the line at the registry office to be downright (gasp!) helpful. Give them a ring I bet they will be able to at least tell you what you're doing wrong :)
 
Jay Honeck said:
Please, for the love of God, don't make me call the FAA randomly. Doesn't anyone here know the FAA's version of "Mabel"? :confused:
Click to expand...

Jay, look at the responses here - if there was ever a consensus on POA, this is it - you need to call. It really wasn't that bad. I was on hold for maybe 5 minutes, if that and the first guy I talked to was able to look up the registration and tell me exactly what the problem was and how to fix it. I got my registration resolved long before some of the folks in our flying club got there expired registrations renewed.
 
Jay, from my own personal experience (lapsed reg on our tow plane) the registration people in OKC are nice AND helpful. Surprised me too, but they will try to help you out.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I make it a practice to never, ever, EVER call the government, for any reason. State, Federal, local, it doesn't matter -- life is too short, and I simply cannot contain my anger and frustration when I am forced to deal with these people.
Click to expand...

But life is plenty long enough to crash your anger and frustration on the rocks of the Internet instead? :mad2: Unless POA has opened a FAA customer service center?
 
alaskaflyer said:
But life is plenty long enough to crash your anger and frustration on the rocks of the Internet instead? :mad2: Unless POA has opened a FAA customer service center?
Click to expand...

This is "recreation". Dealing with bureaucrats is "torture".

If you can't tell the difference, you surely must work for the government. :rolleyes:
 
Perspective is different depending on where you're standing. To some of us watching this thread, this is "not accomplishing anything", whereas picking up the phone "might possibly get you somewhere". :rolleyes:
 
Jim_R said:
Perspective is different depending on where you're standing. To some of us watching this thread, this is "not accomplishing anything", whereas picking up the phone "might possibly get you somewhere". :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
:yeahthat:
 
Jim_R said:
Perspective is different depending on where you're standing. To some of us watching this thread, this is "not accomplishing anything", whereas picking up the phone "might possibly get you somewhere". :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Yeah, who would ever think to go on an aviation group to see if anyone there might know someone to call in OKC? Crazy stuff. :lol:
 
wabower said:
I just hire one of the escrow companies in OKC to do all that stuff. They deal with the FAA registry people every day on a first-name basis, and can accomplish more in ten minutes than anybody else can accomplish in three months--as you now understand as well as anybody.​
Click to expand...


And what did the people do who now own the escrow company do before?:dunno::dunno: They worked at the guvmint creating forms to make the public have to use their "new found" calling in life.:nonod::nonod::yesnod::hairraise:..

Naw... That cannot happen.:nono::nono:

To be fair and balanced. I sent my renewal card in by snail mail and less then two weeks later I had a new registration back in my hands... I was as shocked as anyone.;)
 
Jay Honeck said:
Yeah, who would ever think to go on an aviation group to see if anyone there might know someone to call in OKC? Crazy stuff. :lol:
Click to expand...
Well, that wasn't actually your original question. Your first post asking for suggestions was a great idea.

What's crazy is what you said after you got what you asked for:
Rotor&Wing said:
Aircraft Certification: Contact the Aircraft Registration Branch

Office Hours:
Monday through Friday
7:30 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. Central Time
By Telephone
Aircraft Registration / N-Number Information and Assistance
Toll Free Long Distance(866) 762-9434
International & Local Oklahoma City Area(405) 954-3116
Click to expand...

tonycondon said:
yea, give them a call Jay. ... I made a quick call to verify what the issue was and got it right the second time around. They were pretty friendly and helpful over the phone.
Click to expand...

Fearless Tower said:
Have you actually called OKC? ... I called OKC and the guy I spoke with was able to explain everything much more clearly than the letter I got and I was able to get it resolved fairly quickly.
Click to expand...

David said:
Jay,
Did you call them and ask for help? I had some trouble, I can't remember what, with a registration once. One phone call to a very helpful FAA employee solved the problem.
Click to expand...

kyleb said:
This was my experience as well. I called to ask what I needed to do to get my address changed on the registration. The lady I spoke with said "You're supposed to send in a form (or letter...whatever). I'm not supposed to do this, but if you can tell me your SSN or Cert number or some unique ID, I'll just do it over the phone. "

And she did.
Click to expand...

Then:
Jay Honeck said:
I make it a practice to never, ever, EVER call the government, for any reason. ... Please, for the love of God, don't make me call the FAA randomly. Doesn't anyone here know the FAA's version of "Mabel"? :confused:
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:
 
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I've had my fun, the truth is though, I have never had any problems in my dealings with the FAA. On the telephone they have always been helpful and polite. The guy who answers the initial phone call answers the phone like he's still in the Army, but he routs you to who you need to talk to quickly and efficiently.

Calling the FAA is not like calling the numerous other bureaucracies I have had dealings with in my life.

Like everyone else has been saying, call them.

John
 
I deal with Aircraft Registry on a regular basis. I've always had great service with these people.

So far I haven't encountered any 3 headed hydras, yet. ;)
 
My question is whether these same nice, helpful FAA folks who are answering questions on the phone are the same ones who are rejecting applications with simple mistakes that they themselves could correct? I don't get it. :dunno:
 
gprellwitz said:
My question is whether these same nice, helpful FAA folks who are answering questions on the phone are the same ones who are rejecting applications with simple mistakes that they themselves could correct? I don't get it. :dunno:
Click to expand...

Here's the problem. An applicant sends in a form that was filled out incorrectly. If the person receiving the form "corrects" the mistake they have now altered the applicant's form, which could be construed as fraud. Any applications made in the FAA must be done by the applicant and signed by them. This is no different than an Inspector reviewing a Form 8710 before a checkride. The Inspector cannot make any marks on the front of the application, he must give it back to the applicant to correct.

Same theory with Aircraft Certification, except you are dealing with them through the mail.

Perhaps one day the FAA will come into the 21st century and have aircraft registration available as an online application. :dunno:
 
wabower said:
I just hire one of the escrow companies in OKC to do all that stuff. They deal with the FAA registry people every day on a first-name basis, and can accomplish more in ten minutes than anybody else can accomplish in three months--as you now understand as well as anybody.​
Click to expand...

Is there one in particular that you can recommend? I will be going through his soon. One LLC to another.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Here's the problem. An applicant sends in a form that was filled out incorrectly. If the person receiving the form "corrects" the mistake they have now altered the applicant's form, which could be construed as fraud. Any applications made in the FAA must be done by the applicant and signed by them. This is no different than an Inspector reviewing a Form 8710 before a checkride. The Inspector cannot make any marks on the front of the application, he must give it back to the applicant to correct.

Same theory with Aircraft Certification, except you are dealing with them through the mail.

Perhaps one day the FAA will come into the 21st century and have aircraft registration available as an online application. :dunno:
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's about what I figured.
 
Well, I finally carved out some time to waltz with the FAA. Called them at 12:05 CST, and sat on hold, listening to a very long waltz, until 12:21 CST.

Finally got a hold of "Lindy", a pleasant woman who, after much futzing around, was able to find the original bill of sale that I sent them in March.

At first she said I needed to submit my corrected form AND another bill of sale, which she initially said was missing. I knew I had already filed this form last March, so I just kept stalling, figuring she would eventually find the paperwork.

She did.

In the end, she told me precisely which lines to draw my line (in INK) through. She also told me to INITIAL the change -- something that was not on the written instructions. I can just imagine what would have happened, had I submitted the form without my initials.

The good news? They're not going to charge me $5 bucks again. The bad news? That's 45 minutes I'll never, ever get back.

Now, I've sent it off to OKC. Why, why, WHY was this so hard? Their paperwork is absurd to start with, the instructions are needlessly convoluted, and the requirements for perfection are overly picky. (Examples: If I use whiteout, the form is disallowed. If my line touches any other lines, the form is disallowed. If the line obscures any printed words, the form is disallowed.)

If I required such perfection from my customers, they would never be able to stay at my hotels. Are we not the FAA's customers? Do we not pay their salary?

Why have we allowed bureaucrats free rein? Why do I ask unanswerable questions?

I know, I know. Keep your head down. Go with the flow. Don't speak up, or look directly at the cameras. Move along, move along...

Edit: I am, of course, presuming that this matter is settled. I have presumed that on two previous occasions, and been incorrect, so there is no really valid reason to presume it now. Stay tuned...
 
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