Has anyone done Rational Recovery instead of AA?

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flyingron said:
Hey if you really want to find out for sure, just go on disulfiram. You'll find out in short order what you consume or even wipe on your skin that has alcohol in it.
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Hmmm....

Disulfiram is used to treat chronic alcoholism. It causes unpleasant effects when even small amounts of alcohol are consumed. These effects include flushing of the face, headache, nausea, vomiting, chest pain, weakness, blurred vision, mental confusion, sweating, choking, breathing difficulty, and anxiety.
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Sounds like it simply intensifies the effects of alcohol.
 
Back in my paramedic days we used to run into a few antabuse users from time to time. You didn't even want to use alcohol swabs on these guys (we'd prefer iodine anyhow).
 
I contacted the HIMS AME that Doc Bruce recommended. I think I will move forward with him as he seemed to be a reasonable person. I basically just told him the day of my last drink, and explained to him I would like to do an alternative approach to total abstinence to get my special issuance. He said that it would be possible.

So I'll go ahead and send him the information I had sent to the FAA regarding my past alcohol infractions and see what happens from there. He said he'll be able to contact the FAA from there to discuss a plan I could get into. I will probably have to have him order random urine tests for a while before getting into a special issuance but I am not in any rush, this is just a hobby.
 
It's funny the difference just a generation makes with regards to alcohol and flying. When I started many of the people I knew and was mentored by we're QBs of the WWII vintage. These guys were highly experienced respected 'A Scale' and corporate pilots, even doctors. They had bottles in their flight bag and had no issue with having a drink in flight, heck, one particular guy I'd see taxi up I'd grab the tug and park it under his 310s wing so he could just roll/slide down the wing and onto the hood of the tug where he'd ride to the FBO, this was a Senior AME. In those days nobody thought a second thought about it.
 
Rational Recovery said:
I contacted the HIMS AME that Doc Bruce recommended. I think I will move forward with him as he seemed to be a reasonable person. I basically just told him the day of my last drink, and explained to him I would like to do an alternative approach to total abstinence to get my special issuance. He said that it would be possible.
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I'm confused. When you say "an alternative approach to total abstinence " what does that mean? Does it mean an alternatve way to achieve total abstinence, or does it mean achieving something less than total abstinence, i.e. responsible social drinking?

Thanks.
 
Mason said:
I'm confused. When you say "an alternative approach to total abstinence " what does that mean? Does it mean an alternatve way to achieve total abstinence, or does it mean achieving something less than total abstinence, i.e. responsible social drinking?

Thanks.
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Alternative approach to achieve total abstinence.
 
Rational Recovery said:
Alternative approach to achieve total abstinence.
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Then, frankly, your first assignment is to say what you actually mean. Many docs, had they heard this

Rational Recovery said:
I would like to do an alternative approach to total abstinence to get my special issuance.
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would have immediately shown you the door.
 
Mason said:
I'm confused. When you say "an alternative approach to total abstinence " what does that mean? Does it mean an alternatve way to achieve total abstinence, or does it mean achieving something less than total abstinence, i.e. responsible social drinking?

Thanks.
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RR is an abstinence program. It strikes me as being based upon some combination of Cognitive Therapy and Rational-Emotive Therapy. The guy who came up with it is himself an alcoholic and a therapist of some sort or another in California (I think).

The program once had groups, but no longer does. It's pretty much a solo act now, with guidance from the program's materials. The addict is taught that it is the "Addictive Voice" that wants to do the drinking (or whatever else the addiction may be), and learns through the various materials how to refute that voice.

This is where it strikes me as similar to conventional Cognitive Therapy; it's the tone of some of the materials I've looked at that remind me of R.E.T. a'la Albert Ellis.

In my limited experience, RR seems to appeal primarily to people who have issues with the spiritual aspects of the 12 Steps of A.A. or with the idea of a "higher power" in general, as well as those who simply don't like support groups.

I became aware of the program when I was doing volunteer work with alcoholics and addicts (among others) in The City. I personally do not know anyone who got and stayed sober using only RR. I do, however, know a few who found RR helpful in staying sober after they'd already stopped drinking by the "white knuckle" method.

Personally, I think that's probably where RR is most likely to be helpful. I don't think it's particularly well-suited for someone who's in early recovery because what little I've read of the literature strikes me as requiring a bit more clarity of thought than the average drunk / junkie / pothead / etc. would be able to muster the day after his or her last drink / fix / toke / etc.

But for someone who's already blown some of the dust out from between their ears, I think it could be helpful.

I have no idea if there are any studies about RR's effectiveness.

-Rich
 
(!) Henning, in post 36 is dead on.

(2) Good for Dr. T.J.

(3) RR, you're wrong about ETGs. In designing a program that is convincing, there are some situations in which weekend testing is impossible (pilot active in the ANG on weekends, would be a GREAT example). You cannot leave any period systematically unchallengeable, so in that case- you use ETGs and just make sure the pilot knows not to queer the ETG. He has a tremendous incentive to get it right....

They can be a sober pilot's best friend. Imagine this:
"I'm sorry colonel, I have to stand down now to go pee for my civilian medical".
"Why do you have to go pee, Captain?"

That is NOT HAPPENING, no how no way.
 
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RJM62 said:
RR is an abstinence program. It strikes me as being based upon some combination of Cognitive Therapy and Rational-Emotive Therapy. The guy who came up with it is himself an alcoholic and a therapist of some sort or another in California (I think).

The program once had groups, but no longer does. It's pretty much a solo act now, with guidance from the program's materials. The addict is taught that it is the "Addictive Voice" that wants to do the drinking (or whatever else the addiction may be), and learns through the various materials how to refute that voice.

This is where it strikes me as similar to conventional Cognitive Therapy; it's the tone of some of the materials I've looked at that remind me of R.E.T. a'la Albert Ellis.

In my limited experience, RR seems to appeal primarily to people who have issues with the spiritual aspects of the 12 Steps of A.A. or with the idea of a "higher power" in general, as well as those who simply don't like support groups.

I became aware of the program when I was doing volunteer work with alcoholics and addicts (among others) in The City. I personally do not know anyone who got and stayed sober using only RR. I do, however, know a few who found RR helpful in staying sober after they'd already stopped drinking by the "white knuckle" method.

Personally, I think that's probably where RR is most likely to be helpful. I don't think it's particularly well-suited for someone who's in early recovery because what little I've read of the literature strikes me as requiring a bit more clarity of thought than the average drunk / junkie / pothead / etc. would be able to muster the day after his or her last drink / fix / toke / etc.

But for someone who's already blown some of the dust out from between their ears, I think it could be helpful.

I have no idea if there are any studies about RR's effectiveness.

-Rich
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You are correct on some points but also express some common misperceptions about RR. There is no such thing as 'early recovery' in RR. Everyone in RR is issued a zero tolerance policy, and it is understood by all members that they have already used up all of their relapses, once you start RR you don't get any coins that you can cash in for a relapse. Not happening. If you have even a sip of alcohol you are banned forever from RR.

It doesn't matter how much you drank or used prior to taking the course just so long as you are not under the influence when you begin the course.

The founder was in fact a former drunk and has not had a drink in 20+ years. He is an honest and respectable person.
 
Rational Recovery said:
You are correct on some points but also express some common misperceptions about RR. There is no such thing as 'early recovery' in RR. Everyone in RR is issued a zero tolerance policy, and it is understood by all members that they have already used up all of their relapses, once you start RR you don't get any coins that you can cash in for a relapse. Not happening. If you have even a sip of alcohol you are banned forever from RR.

It doesn't matter how much you drank or used prior to taking the course just so long as you are not under the influence when you begin the course.

The founder was in fact a former drunk and has not had a drink in 20+ years. He is an honest and respectable person.
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Oh, I don't doubt any of that, RR. And thanks for the clarifications.

My basic position is, if a program keeps you sober, then it's the best program in the world for you. I just have doubts whether some of the drunks / addicts I've known would be able to follow the RR program, period, early on.

When I say "early on," I mean as in the first hours / days of sobriety. If you can't get past the first hours, then the rest never happens.

As you mentioned, the RR program requires you to be sober (or at least not under the influence -- whether that's the same as "sober" is questionable) when you start the program. Getting to that point can be harder for some drunks / addicts than for others.

There also are people who suffer from varying degrees of cognitive impairment as a result of their drinking and/or prolonged lack of proper nutrition. Most of these folks can recover to a remarkable degree with sustained abstinence and proper nutrition and medical care, but I think they'd have a hard time following the RR program at first. It simply requires more clarity of thought than some drunks are capable of at that point.

In the worst cases, alcoholics can develop a form of encephalopathy known as Wernicke–Korsakoff syndrome, from which anything resembling full recovery is unlikely. Too much damage has been done by that point.

Still, even though they may never recover all of their faculties, these folks may be able to get and stay sober using A.A.'s simple program and the group support available to them in that program. But I have serious doubts whether most of them would have the presence of mind to benefit from RR in their first few hours or days off the bottle.

In the interests of disclosure, my opinions are based solely on my own experiences working with alcoholics and addicts (among others) in New York City, as a volunteer sponsored by a religious organization, for about 10 years. I wasn't specifically assigned to work with chemically-dependent people, but most of the people I worked with were (or had once been) chemically-dependent.

I also should mention for the sake of disclosure that I did have CASAC certification at one time, and the CASAC training does heavily emphasize the 12 steps over other recovery programs. So that may be coloring my opinions a bit.

Also, the people I worked with who had alcohol and/or drug problems tended to be pretty far along down those respective roads. The farther along an addict gets, the more damage is done, and the more difficult it gets for them to follow any sort of program that requires actual thought.

But again, in my opinion, the best recovery program in the world is the one that works for you.

-Rich
 
I've been on random ETG tests for a year, now, and I am always concerned about a false positive. I've read that SAMHSA report, also. But so far, it has always come back negative, and I come into incidental contact with lots of different fuels and chemicals that probably contain ethanol, so I'm not nearly as concerned anymore.

My AA sponsor went through the same tests for a long time and he never had a false positive, either.
 
Unregistered said:
I've been on random ETG tests for a year, now, and I am always concerned about a false positive. I've read that SAMHSA report, also. But so far, it has always come back negative, and I come into incidental contact with lots of different fuels and chemicals that probably contain ethanol, so I'm not nearly as concerned anymore.

My AA sponsor went through the same tests for a long time and he never had a false positive, either.
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Ok. This relieves some of my concern. Thanks for sharing, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one with the concern.
 
Steve Foley said:
Nope.

It's pretty hard to prove a negative. There are alternatives, such as not flying. This is something OP has brought on himself.
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I couldn't agree with you more. Which is why I have quit drinking completely, for forever.
 
RR, you are so full of fears and "convictions that everyone else is wrong". You need to just get your butt into gear and get going. I've got lots of guys on ETG, and the HUMAN Medical Review Officer (the HIMS AME) is responsible for determining WTH went on with a positive test. You have so many misperceptions about HIMS, too....none of which are relevant to you situation.

Example: I one had a guy who was scored positive because he missed a test. Turns out, when I investigated, he got to the test center 10 minutes prior to close. Both toilets were out, so they could not take his sample. The Test organization scored him as randomed, confirmed informed, and no result.

I took me about an hour to confirm, and get them to re-randomize the guy.

Part of me wants to tell you to "grow up". Get off your fear pedestal and re-engage. Get going.....and for heaven's sake when you go see the HIMS guy in Milwaukee, don't go in there the way you came in here.....

You can do this; if you can't, then you ARE NOT YET READY.
 
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Alcohol is alcohol. Recovery is recovery.

The terms are, proven total abstinence. If he can get off his butt and get a HIMS sponsor, he doesn't have to do HIMS (heck by definition he can't his "company" doesn't have a HIMS program), all he has to do is convince the agency he really is clean.

He had the misfortune to come on and not declare that he was abstinent, only to add it later, and to essentially say, "that fri--ing HIMS and 12 step, I ain't gonna do it, it isn't fair".

Funny thing is that he doens't have to do either of them. If any good is going to come of this string, he'll make it through with the HIMS AME in Milwaukee and be flying again.....the preconceptions are incredible (and I don't mean just by the OP, either), but maybe have been disabused. :)
 
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Rational Recovery said:
I couldn't agree with you more. Which is why I have quit drinking completely, for forever.
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Not enough people will step up and say this, but just stop drinking. When I saw the problems I would have with maintaining my privilege to fly if I ever got a DUI, I made the decision to just quit drinking. If you can't control your desire for alcohol (or illegal drugs) then you need your license taken away.

OK, go ahead and get pi55ed at me, I'm a big boy and I can take it.
 
Garthur said:
Not enough people will step up and say this, but just stop drinking. When I saw the problems I would have with maintaining my privilege to fly if I ever got a DUI, I made the decision to just quit drinking. If you can't control your desire for alcohol (or illegal drugs) then you need your license taken away.

OK, go ahead and get pi55ed at me, I'm a big boy and I can take it.
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don't you see anything ironic about quitting drinking because you cannot control your drinking? LOL
 
Rational Recovery said:
don't you see anything ironic about quitting drinking because you cannot control your drinking? LOL
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I do.

I also find it ironic that I would rather hang out with recovering alcoholics than "normal" people. Recovering alcoholics face their flaws and try to fix them. Normal people continue to be a**h**es forever. They don't have a program for that.
 
Rational Recovery said:
don't you see anything ironic about quitting drinking because you cannot control your drinking? LOL
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Isn't the theory that an addict is more likely to be successful by quitting altogether than by trying to achieve moderation?

It sure works that way with me and cookies!
 
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Palmpilot said:
Isn't the theory that an addict is more likely to be successful by quitting altogether than by trying to achieve moderation?

It sure works that way with me and cookies!
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When I was little Grandma told me to enjoy everything life has to offer, in moderation.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Including cookies.
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I must admit to my lack of willpower to completely moderate my cookie intake so I have given to restricting my shopping/baking of them. When I do have a batch, it's a binge reminiscent of Cookie Monster....:rofl:
 
Oh yeah, transient, I'm only an addict when I'm high.
 
My exwife tried RR - it did not work, that's why she's an ex. I hope she finds a path to recovery but I can't make her choose to get better. It only took me 15 years to figure that out. Can't blame a guy for trying.
 
With numbers like that anyone with any alcohol infractions should just be grounded forever.:wink2: Can't have it both ways.
 
Phoenix said:
With numbers like that anyone with any alcohol infractions should just be grounded forever.:wink2: Can't have it both ways.
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When I was a kid, airline pilots were drunks, and cocaine was a cockpit accutrement. Has the safety record of pilots (not planes) actually improved since then?:dunno:
 
Henning said:
When I was a kid, airline pilots were drunks, and cocaine was a cockpit accutrement. Has the safety record of pilots (not planes) actually improved since then?:dunno:
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I doubt it. I've known many high functioning junkie athletes. Guys that move and think fast under stress and use plenty of substances. But society says no druggies in the front, unless they have recovered per X standard. Anon is saying X standard isn't very good, what's next convincing Nancy Reagan's 'just so no kids' that some high functioning addicts fly better then stone cold sober pilot dorks?:lol:
 
I have attended BOAF events, and I am confident that AA/BOAF has saved lives, families and careers.
 
SCCutler said:
I have attended BOAF events, and I am confident that AA/BOAF has saved lives, families and careers.
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If you want to credit these people with saving lives, then you also have to credit them with their failures, which I doubt they would care for. It's up to people to decide. If this is a tool they decide to make work, fine by me, but do you credit the hammer for building the house, or the wrench for fixing the plane?

The problem with 12 step is that it is all based on the lie that you are not in control. The "Higher Power" gave you free will and doesn't violate it. Nothing is in anyone's power except your own. God is far from omnipotent.
 
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The ones who diss AA like me have read the research that shows that those doing twelve steps don't have any better outcome than those who don't do ANYTHING. If you find AA supportive in your recovery, I'm not going to get in your way. Same as I won't tell you, that not to go to Church, but relying on it for any regulatory function (like dealing with known addicted pilots), is not supported by any rational scientific process.

This is why the FAA wants a documented and verified continual abstinance in addition to just going through 12 steps and really would like to see some real medical treatment as well.
 
flyingron said:
The ones who diss AA like me have read the research that shows that those doing twelve steps don't have any better outcome than those who don't do ANYTHING. If you find AA supportive in your recovery, I'm not going to get in your way. Same as I won't tell you, that not to go to Church, but relying on it for any regulatory function (like dealing with known addicted pilots), is not supported by any rational scientific process.

This is why the FAA wants a documented and verified continual abstinance in addition to just going through 12 steps and really would like to see some real medical treatment as well.
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It's like this: HIMS using AA which was the tool of choice in 1983, embedded in HIMS, has a 97% nonrecidivism rate since that time. There has been no in flight incident (though we are walking on eggshells).

NOBODY is willing to change a successful formula. It's not AA alone, it's the whole package. If the grounded pilot really objects to the wee amount of religion in AA, I would strongly suggest that the pilot spend that energy getting insight into the real issue, Alcohol. And then if he is still insistent, he can try any of a number of alternatives, knowing that he might be excluded if the rest of your package doesn't look TERRIFIC.

When a HIMS AME recommends a pilot to the F.A.S, it is his name on the line. It is also the FAS's judgment on the line (and his representatives and advisors). If one doesn't mind getting remanded to another year of recovery work, okay. But, I mind. I will tolerate "SMART" but I want the pilot recovered and able to run his own sobriety program. And the fellowship of in person bonding that occurs in an AA goes a long way to busting the isolation of alcohol. See, you have mates....and not on the other end of a computer screen.

We're not going to let anyone spoil the track record.

I tell the "conscientious objectors" to "Decide first if you want to be a pilot, and how badly. Everything else falls out from there". "If you don't want it that bad, do anything you like. FAA will decide when they get the package, and if you are remanded to more recovery work, so be it."

Thus endeth my sojourn tonight through POA. You all treat Louis, right now, you hear?
 
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Yes, how badly do you want to fly? Besides, the only requirement for membership in AA is the "desire" to stop drinking. Everything else, including finding a higher power, is up to you. Your higher power could be a door knob. The key is to get out of your sense of "self" and let go of ego, so that you can admit you have a problem. And get help for that problem. smh
 
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