The whole 'higher power' thing just trades one addiction for another hopefully less destructive one, it doesn't address the root of why the addiction is felt necessary or desirable.
I've seen it go both ways with AA, I will say the recovery statistic for AA is skewed against them due to all the court mandated people. If people don't choose to be there because they want to recover, they will not, and as soon as the court appointed period is over, they score as an AA failure.
It's like this: HIMS using AA which was the tool of choice in 1983, embedded in HIMS, has a 97% nonrecidivism rate since that time. There has been no in flight incident (though we are walking on eggshells).
NOBODY is willing to change a successful formula. It's not AA alone, it's the whole package. If the grounded pilot really objects to the wee amount of religion in AA, I would strongly suggest that the pilot spend that energy getting insight into the real issue, Alcohol. And then if he is still insistent, he can try any of a number of alternatives, knowing that he might be excluded if the rest of your package doesn't look TERRIFIC.
When a HIMS AME recommends a pilot to the F.A.S, it is his name on the line. It is also the FAS's judgment on the line (and his representatives and advisors). If one doesn't mind getting remanded to another year of recovery work, okay. But, I mind. I will tolerate "SMART" but I want the pilot recovered and able to run his own sobriety program. And the fellowship of in person bonding that occurs in an AA goes a long way to busting the isolation of alcohol. See, you have mates....and not on the other end of a computer screen.
We're not going to let anyone spoil the track record.
I tell the "conscientious objectors" to "Decide first if you want to be a pilot, and how badly. Everything else falls out from there". "If you don't want it that bad, do anything you like. FAA will decide when they get the package, and if you are remanded to more recovery work, so be it."
Thus endeth my sojourn tonight through POA. You all treat Louis, right now, you hear?
That's like looking at marriage / divorce statistics without a way to filter for marriages of convenience. Or any statistics that look at 'business starts' based on LLC filings and incorporations.
Yes, how badly do you want to fly? Besides, the only requirement for membership in AA is the "desire" to stop drinking. Everything else, including finding a higher power, is up to you. Your higher power could be a door knob. The key is to get out of your sense of "self" and let go of ego, so that you can admit you have a problem. And get help for that problem. smh
The rest of the program of AA DOES address the root of the problem. And, again, finding a higher power, like everything in AA is a suggestion. It is all in the books and literature. And there is a lot of good, long term sobriety. Statistics can, and have known to be incorrect.
Those " who just decide on their own to stop drinking" , and can, would not fit the description of an alcoholic. Abusing alcohol, yes. An alcoholic, a true alcoholic, cannot stop. The best way I've seen AA work, is to do inpatient, to medically detox and be removed from the ability to have access to alcohol, and the outside pressures of the world, where you can solely focus on yourself. Then come to AA, and learn how to live life on a daily basis, without your substance of choice. Without some sort of aftercare, that continues, a true alcoholic or addict, returning to the life they lived, will surely drink or use again. I am not bashing other programs. This is how I have witnessed the AA program work in many many lives, and be a success.
And AA does say, " our program is not for those who need it, it is for those who WANT it"
Rules of Conduct said:Pilots of America permits anonymous posting in the Medical Topics forum, as well as in the Lessons Learned forum, but ONLY when disclosing your OWN potential or existing medical condition, potential violation of FAA regulations, incident or accident in which you may have been involved. Posts made anonymously in response to such posts will be deleted unless the content of the response requires anonymity.
Glad to - but who's Louis?
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Bruce, what you've written here is strong stuff, and needs to be read and understood.
The fact is, folks, the mere existence of a path back to the cockpit is a very big deal and, in my observation (and it has not been inconsequential), most who object to this process (and processes of similar rigor and substance) are simply
not mentally ready to get better... and they will not.
It is work, and hard work, at that; having others around you who will help is (IMHO) all the difference. You commit, and your colleagues will be warriors for you.
Define better. 40 years ago they wouldn't have been considered broken. The pilots who built this industry were a bunch of drunks. Before Nancy Reagan and **** testing, pilots used blow to deal with the **** schedules. Changing all that with the War on Drugs and MADD didn't really affect the safety record of pilots. In fact, planes got better and pilots got worse.
Those " who just decide on their own to stop drinking" , and can, would not fit the description of an alcoholic. Abusing alcohol, yes. An alcoholic, a true alcoholic, cannot stop.
Why are you posting as Unregistered? It doesn't seem as if you have any sensitive information you need to keep private.
Nothing in this particular Unregistered's post comes even close to something that would need anonymity. The fact that they are polite is the reason they are still there, unlike some previous trolling Unregistered posts.He (she) seems to be quite familiar with the AA process and may not be interested in broadcasting the fact that he or a close family member has an inside perspective. He has been nothing but polite in his defense of AA and I dont see why he shouldn't be afforded the protection of anonymity.
Nothing in this particular Unregistered's post comes even close to something that would need anonymity.
I agree that there are scenarios where it would be justified for someone to post as Unregistered. This does not appear to be one.I know this is a hot button for you, but someone's inside knowledge/experience with alcoholism certainly could be something that justify anonymity. Not always, but there could be scenarios where it would be appropriate.
I agree that there are scenarios where it would be justified for someone to post as Unregistered. This does not appear to be one.
Why are you posting as Unregistered? It doesn't seem as if you have any sensitive information you need to keep private.
Here is a reminder about our Rules of Conduct.
Numerous posts have already been deleted from this thread.
All the poster is doing is supporting AA. They are not revealing any personal experiences. As far as the poster possibly knowing an alcoholic, I'm guessing almost everyone here does.I don't intend to be argumentative, but I am curious how you would know?
Nothing in this particular Unregistered's post comes even close to something that would need anonymity. The fact that they are polite is the reason they are still there, unlike some previous trolling Unregistered posts.
Unregistered does not talk about a close relation. He or she only talks about witnessing that AA "works". For all we know they could be an AA counselor. If this information is too sensitive for them to post under their own screen name they can elect not to post at all.Of course it warrants anonymity. He talks about either himself or a close relation (spouse?) with an alcohol problem. I doubt he would contribute his viewpoint without anonymity. Thats what the feature is for.
All the poster is doing is supporting AA. They are not revealing any personal experiences. As far as the poster possibly knowing an alcoholic, I'm guessing almost everyone here does.
If you are that worried, don't post at all. This is the internet. You are not really anonymous.If any particular person were to post about their own knowledge of AA and such, you don't know if that would reveal information that is legally protected or considered sensitive (even if not legally required to be protected).
You shouldn't just consider the content of the post itself. You should consider what other information is already available and thus can be associated with the poster.
Unregistered does not talk about a close relation. He or she only talks about witnessing that AA "works". For all we know they could be an AA counselor. If this information is too sensitive for them to post under their own screen name they can elect not to post at all.
And those on this forum who have a genuine interest in the world of AA and drug recovery would not have the benefit of his perspective. Full of win.
This is from the sticky about usage of this forum:
This forum is one of those forums designated as "confidential" on Pilots of America. This means that you may, if you choose, post in this particular forum anonymously, and be assured that no public link between your post and you will be displayed in any form.
This is allowed so that you may ask questions, relay personal stories, or share other information which you might not otherwise want to do so with your name attached.
He is using the feature in exactly the way it is laid out in the sticky about usage rules for this particular forum. There is no requirement for him to have done anything illegal, violated a FAR and it doesn't matter whether it is him, his spouse, his kid or a colleague with a TS clearance who has been successful using AA to get off the bottle.
Pilots of America permits anonymous posting in the Medical Topics forum, as well as in the Lessons Learned forum, but ONLY when disclosing your OWN potential or existing medical condition, potential violation of FAA regulations, incident or accident in which you may have been involved. Posts made anonymously in response to such posts will be deleted unless the content of the response requires anonymity.
You think you are fooling someone here but you aren't.To make it clear, it IS my own personal experience. Thank you for the assumptions
You think you are fooling someone here but you aren't.
I'm a mod. I can see the IP addresses. The last Unregistered matches with someone who has been arguing, not the one who is defending AA.
The rules also state...
This Unregistered was not posting about their own medical condition. If they were, it was not revealed in the posts. The posts were merely an endorsement of AA. Note that I have no feeling about AA one way or another.
I disagree with you and also your tactics in this thread.As I said, there is a conflict between the 'rules of conduct' and the directions given by Greebo in 2005 on how to use the medical forum. He has a valid interest in posting this anonymously and it wouldn't be posted without the shield of anonymity.
I disagree with you and also your tactics in this thread.
What 'tactics' ?
I post from a static IP. It shouldn't be too hard to rule me out as the 'unregistered'.
If you are going to persist, see post #110.
There are two hits on the IP address of that post. One of them is you.You dont seem to understand how that feature works. I did not post as 'unregistered'.
There are two hits on the IP address of that post. One of them is you.
No, there are two users who have used the same IP address as the last Unregistered poster. One of them has been arguing in this thread.So there is a post with two IP addresses ?
Please pm me the IP.
No, there are two users who have used the same IP address as the last Unregistered poster. One of them has been arguing in this thread.
The post was not from a home office router.Last I know, nobody who has access to my home-office router is a participant on POA. I did not post any 'unregistered' posts on this thread.