Gyroplane/Gyrocopter speed, useful load, and safety

[lurkerLuke]

Another dumb question.

First off, sorry about my layman terminology.

Wondering about Gyrocopter/Gyroplane speed/useful weight and safety.

I know I can ask over on a rotary forum (Hey Vance!), want opinions from a different group.

Seems like some of the Gyros have same engine but not the speed or useful load of a Cessna 15x or 172, What limits the Gyro speed and useful weight compared to fixed wing?

Safety wise, I've seen the videos from www.sportcopter.com showing short takeoff and very short landing, think there is a link to engine out safety also.
Seems like the very short landing capability adds to safety, no?

Other than folks thinking they don't need instruction ( duh... ), seems like there are two big issues.

The rotor blades can slap and hit the propeller. Can't a bar be put over the prop to avoid this? Still not good but couldn't it be survivable?

The rotor disk can be put into a negative flow where the rotor blades cannot start again, turning into an unrecoverable situation. Oh crud at 4000' knowing you are going down with no hope.

Is there a reasonable way some sort of chute could be fitted to a Gyro, what with two different sets of blades spinning?

 

[Lowflynjack]

Another dumb question.

First off, sorry about my layman terminology.

Wondering about Gyrocopter/Gyroplane speed/useful weight and safety.

I know I can ask over on a rotary forum (Hey Vance!), want opinions from a different group.

Seems like some of the Gyros have same engine but not the speed or useful load of a Cessna 15x or 172, What limits the Gyro speed and useful weight compared to fixed wing?

Safety wise, I've seen the videos from www.sportcopter.com showing short takeoff and very short landing, think there is a link to engine out safety also.
Seems like the very short landing capability adds to safety, no?

Other than folks thinking they don't need instruction ( duh... ), seems like there are two big issues.

The rotor blades can slap and hit the propeller. Can't a bar be put over the prop to avoid this? Still not good but couldn't it be survivable?

The rotor disk can be put into a negative flow where the rotor blades cannot start again, turning into an unrecoverable situation. Oh crud at 4000' knowing you are going down with no hope.

Is there a reasonable way some sort of chute could be fitted to a Gyro, what with two different sets of blades spinning?

You could call my airport a gyroport sometimes. My friend Dayton Dabbs from Lone Star Magni Gyros sells gyroplanes and instructs in them. He has put 40 hours on one in two weeks before. The one he is training in now has around 500 hours and it's a year old.

Like most fixed-wing pilots, I was leery of them when I first found out he was getting into the gyro business (btw, gryoplane is the correct terminology). Now with thousands of accident-free hours under his belt, I'm impressed. I can't speak to useful load, but I'd say his cruise speed is about 95mph, so faster than a cub, slower than my 140. Safety-wise, don't get into negative G situations and you'll be fine. The old accident-prone gyros had low engines and little or no tail, and got into push-overs where you couldn't recover. The new gyros with large tails and the engine mounted lower have addressed this issue.

When you land, like landing a tailwheel plane in a wheel landing, you push the stick forward. The rotor blades are then far from the propeller.

Not sure what you're talking about on the negative flow, but I'm sure he could address your concerns. I've been with him when he almost stopped in the air, stopping all forward speed and slowly sinking. I've also seen people shut off the engine and land.

How much does Dayton trust his gyro? He and three other guys just made the first VFR flight to Cuba in over 60 years in two gyros. Flying over 100 miles of ocean in an open-cockpit gyro took some faith! The Magnis all have Rotax 912 or 914 engines. Lone Star Magni Gyro

Photo I took after they set a world record:

 

[Art VanDelay]

Ok, gyros are pretty slow - like 70 knots slow. Factor in a headwind and you'll look down and see kids on skateboards passing you up ! That's just the nature of the beast - I mean look at them your basically dragging a spinning rotor disk thru the air just like a big kite or parachute. From an aerodynamic point of view they are pretty much a train wreck.

Helicopters have powered rotors that are inclined forward pulling the aircraft thru the air. Gyroplanes (their proper name) are using a propellor to drag a spinning disc thru the air much in the same way a powered parachute does. Gyroplanes are ALWAYS in autorotation mode. Helicopters require you to enter autorotation.

As for hauling capability it can range from 150 to about 700 lbs. As for safety the chances of the main rotors hitting the prop are pretty remote if not down right impossible on most modern Gyroplanes. The prop would shred and as long as the rotors are intact you will simply continue to the ground execute a cyclic flare and land as normal. BTW helicopters can have their blades flex down and chop the tail boom off in turbulence or loss of stability augmentation systems too.

Yes, the rotors can be put into negative lift situation but this is highly preventable. Worrying about this would be like worrying about a fixed wing aircraft flying into a mountain - the simple cure is lets just not do this. As for mounting a form of BRS - why ? You've already got a big parachute up there in the form of that spinning rotor disc. The one good thing about a Gyroplane is that if the cyclic flare is executed correctly you will touch down with zero forward airspeed which can be handy in areas of unsuitable terrain.

As for the Gyroplanes horrible safety record this all leads back to the Bensen days when there were almost NO instructors. The Bensen kit actually came with instructions on how to teach yourself how to fly - so you can kind of see where that might lead to problems. Then over the years Gyroplanes would be found for sale on EBay and Craigslist for a couple thousand dollars. The new buyers figured "hey, how hard can it be ?" - once again with predictable results.

 

[Art VanDelay]

You could call my airport a gyroport sometimes. My friend Dayton Dabbs from Lone Star Magni Gyros sells gyroplanes and instructs in them. He has put 40 hours on one in two weeks before. The one he is training in now has around 500 hours and it's a year old.

Like most fixed-wing pilots, I was leery of them when I first found out he was getting into the gyro business (btw, gryoplane is the correct terminology). Now with thousands of accident-free hours under his belt, I'm impressed. I can't speak to useful load, but I'd say his cruise speed is about 95mph, so faster than a cub, slower than my 140. Safety-wise, don't get into negative G situations and you'll be fine. The old accident-prone gyros had low engines and little or no tail, and got into push-overs where you couldn't recover. The new gyros with large tails and the engine mounted lower have addressed this issue.

When you land, like landing a tailwheel plane in a wheel landing, you push the stick forward. The rotor blades are then far from the propeller.

Not sure what you're talking about on the negative flow, but I'm sure he could address your concerns. I've been with him when he almost stopped in the air, stopping all forward speed and slowly sinking. I've also seen people shut off the engine and land.

How much does Dayton trust his gyro? He and three other guys just made the first VFR flight to Cuba in over 60 years in two gyros. Flying over 100 miles of ocean in an open-cockpit gyro took some faith! The Magnis all have Rotax 912 or 914 engines. Lone Star Magni Gyro

Photo I took after they set a world record:

Hey ! Ask Dayton if he can give you a Gyrocopter Mountain Flying Checkout - tell him you'd like to do it up by Boulder Canyon in Colorado. See what he says !

 

[Pilawt]

Hey ! Ask Dayton if he can give you a Gyrocopter Mountain Flying Checkout - tell him you'd like to do it up by Boulder Canyon in Colorado. See what he says !

The Approved Flight Manual for the old McCulloch J-2 Gyroplane (180 hp) said, "Maximum approved pressure altitude for take off - 4000 feet; Maximum approved pressure altitude - 8,000 feet."

Never-exceed speed in the J-2 was 106 mph (92 knots) IAS. Normal cruise speed was just a few ticks below that. The primary limiting factor there was retreating-blade stall.

In a rotary-wing aircraft, the rotor disk loses efficiency as the aircraft's forward speed increases, as half the rotor disk gets closer to a stall. Like walking in the reverse direction on a moving conveyor belt, the airspeed of the blades on the "retreating" side of the disk is canceled out by the forward movement of the aircraft.



You also have a "height-velocity curve" -- showing the combination of altitude and airspeed that should be avoided, because loss of power in that range would leave you without sufficient energy to autorotate to a safe landing. Here's the H/V curve for the J-2:



So you don't want to be 25'-185' AGL at 50 mph in the J-2 -- while something like a Super Cub might be perfectly happy there at that speed.

With its 180 hp Lycoming, the J-2 had a maximum gross weight of 1500 lb., for a useful load of 456 lb. It carried 20 gallons of usable fuel -- that's less than two hours at 75% power to tanks-dry, no reserve. Weight limit in the baggage area under the seat was 95 lb.

The high center of gravity, uneven "give" to the main-gear oleo struts, and undampened nose gear, made crosswind landings -- even at walking speeds -- very challenging.

And the noise, inside and out, was deafening.

 

[Velocity173]

How do you put the blades on a gyro into negative lift? Its purpose?

 

[Dana]

I have a couple of friends who fly gyros, one N-numbered, one Part 103. Biggest problem is that there are only a few gyro CFIs in the whole country, which is why the one friend is still flying 103.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I have a couple of friends who fly gyros, one N-numbered, one Part 103. Biggest problem is that there are only a few gyro CFIs in the whole country, which is why the one friend is still flying 103.

What part of the country? One of my friends is an instructor and he goes to Sun-N-Fun, OSH, and Bensen Days. He probably goes to others as well and trailers his gyro, so he can meet up with people for instruction.

 

[Dana]

New England. He's got hundreds of hours flying the gyro under 103, but none of it counts toward any certificate. Arranging to get the required loggable hours just isn't worth it to him.

 

[Art VanDelay]

How do you put the blades on a gyro into negative lift? Its purpose?

In a round about way the OP is referring to putting the gyro in a negative G situation and thus slowing the rotor speed below flying speed.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I am probably not a good one to ask about gyroplanes, my friend was flying one in which the main rotor seized.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I am probably not a good one to ask about gyroplanes, my friend was flying one in which the main rotor seized.

So that's kind of like saying I can't comment on airplanes because my friend died in one. What type was he flying? Was it a homebuilt or an old design? I would find it very hard to believe it was a modern design. I know the Magni and AutoGyro brands have strict maintenance schedules.

 

[steingar]

Gyrocopters aren't for travel for the most part. They aren't very fast and they don't carry all that much. Many if not most of the ones in the US have been experimental as well. Their safety record is appalling, though I suspect that has more to do with limited training than any issue with the aircraft itself. Training is a darn good idea, I don't think they fly like anything else. I expect their chief benefit is a very small footprint for takeoff and landing, especially compared to most of their fixed wing brethren. A Steingar bucket list item to be certain.

 

[Lowflynjack]

Gyrocopters aren't for travel for the most part. They aren't very fast and they don't carry all that much. Many if not most of the ones in the US have been experimental as well. Their safety record is appalling, though I suspect that has more to do with limited training than any issue with the aircraft itself. Training is a darn good idea, I don't think they fly like anything else. I expect their chief benefit is a very small footprint for takeoff and landing, especially compared to most of their fixed wing brethren. A Steingar bucket list item to be certain.

Agree, for the most part they're not for travel, but they're only 10mph slower than my plane, so they can be used for distance if you want. Their safety record is not appalling, but that is a big misconception they will have to get past. The safety record of the early models was horrible, the newer ones with the big tails have a very good record. Training isn't only a good idea in the newer ones, it's the law. They're all 2 seat models, so at least a light sport license is needed. They are fun to fly, can land in almost no space, and make a good photography platform. It's always hard to convince someone that their beliefs are wrong though. I started off believing they were dangerous, but now hope to get my license in the near future.

 

[steingar]

I might have made a false impression. I doubt strongly that the airframes are in any way perilous, but for whatever reason the safety record is really awful. But I'm in the same boat, though I'm not looking to get into one any time soon.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I doubt strongly that the airframes are in any way perilous, but for whatever reason the safety record is really awful.

Can you give examples of their safety record? From what I've seen the safety record was bad in the 80's when people were building Bensen's in their backyards. Otherwise, I know of few recent accidents. There are even a few police departments using them.

This isn't really my fight, I'm not selling them or trying to sell you one, but I think there are a lot of false impressions about them.

I also have a license in powered parachutes, the type you sit inside a frame not the type you wear a motor on your back. I get a lot of people who say they wouldn't fly in one and start talking about safety without knowing they have a great safety record.

 

[steingar]

Can you give examples of their safety record? From what I've seen the safety record was bad in the 80's when people were building Bensen's in their backyards. Otherwise, I know of few recent accidents. There are even a few police departments using them.

I believe the safety record is bad because both the lack of stabilizers on the earlier models, and an overall lack of training earlier on as well. I suspect the record has improved considerably in more recent times.

This isn't really my fight, I'm not selling them or trying to sell you one, but I think there are a lot of false impressions about them.

I don't doubt that false impressions persist, mostly because of their rarity. I doubt very many non pilots even know what they are.

I also have a license in powered parachutes, the type you sit inside a frame not the type you wear a motor on your back. I get a lot of people who say they wouldn't fly in one and start talking about safety without knowing they have a great safety record.

Powered parachutes are cool (hey if anything happens you have a chute, right?) but I have been told by a CFI who trains in them that there are considerable wind limitations, limiting their use to dawn or dusk where I live. I've read that gyrocopters have wind limitations more like fixed wing aircraft if not more so. Given their limited landing distances I bet a gyrocopter could land diagonally on a lot of runways.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I don't doubt that false impressions persist, mostly because of their rarity. I doubt very many non pilots even know what they are.

They're usually called helicopters around here by non-pilots!

Powered parachutes are cool (hey if anything happens you have a chute, right?) but I have been told by a CFI who trains in them that there are considerable wind limitations, limiting their use to dawn or dusk where I live. I've read that gyrocopters have wind limitations more like fixed wing aircraft if not more so. Given their limited landing distances I bet a gyrocopter could land diagonally on a lot of runways.

Yes, the PPCs are limited by wind. I don't fly in more than 10mph winds, 15mph is probably my safety limit, so I'm leaving myself quite a bit of room. Like you mentioned, we fly right at sunrise or right before sunset most of the time, unless it's a very calm day.

The gyros are amazing in wind. The wing is spinning at over 300mph, so little impact. One of my two friends instructing in and selling gyros started out as a PPC instructor, but due to the wind limitations he got into gryos as well. Now he hardly flies PPCs.

 

[steingar]

The gyros are amazing in wind. The wing is spinning at over 300mph, so little impact. One of my two friends instructing in and selling gyros started out as a PPC instructor, but due to the wind limitations he got into gryos as well. Now he hardly flies PPCs.

Well maybe I'll have to mosey down that way someday, have the airplane's piture took and get me some gyro time!

 

[Shepherd]

Back in the day, when we powered our Benson Gyrocopters with chainsaw motors or pterodactyls, accidents were a daily occurrence.
Many of the accidents were fatal because very few of us really knew what we were doing.
Those old crashes have permanently skewed the statistics.
Some of the new gyros are really beautiful, safe, traveling machines look for the "Gyro Girl" videos on Youtube.
For you geezers, Make sure your nitro pills are nearby.
She's hot and she likes to fly naked.

 

[steingar]

Back in the day, when we powered our Benson Gyrocopters with chainsaw motors or pterodactyls, accidents were a daily occurrence.
Many of the accidents were fatal because very few of us really knew what we were doing.
Those old crashes have permanently skewed the statistics.

Agreed. I think the machines are far better now. Moreover, a lot of the ones now are LSA's at least, and thus require some degree of training, unlike the ultralights of old.

 

[flyingron]

Like walking in the reverse direction on a moving conveyor belt, the airspeed of the blades on the "retreating" side of the disk is canceled out by the forward movement of the aircraft.

Can a gyrocopter take off of a treadmill?

 

[skier]

As others have said, modern days gyros are very safe, as are the very old ones (pre-Bensen). The bad reputation came about during the Bensen era when people were flying under part 103 without training. It continued for a bit even as the Bensen-era faded out due to the high thrust line machines without horizontal stabilizers (RAF-2000 is the main one that comes to mind). Note that this tends to be a very sore and polarizing topic in the gyroplane community.

Gyros are becoming more mainstream, especially in Europe. The top-of-the-line machines that mainly come from there are safe machines. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to fly in a well-maintained Magni, ELA, Calidus, Cavalon, Xenon, etc.

 

[Clark1961]

Can a gyrocopter take off of a treadmill?

Only in the Southern Hemisphere...

 

[Shepherd]

All things considered, we weren't very bright, but we had a lot of fun with some of our homemade whirligigs.
I guess my last machine is still sitting where I left it. At the bottom of Lake Mahopac. sigh......

 

[Art VanDelay]

All things considered, we weren't very bright, but we had a lot of fun with some of our homemade whirligigs.
I guess my last machine is still sitting where I left it. At the bottom of Lake Mahopac. sigh......

Yeah Shep many of the old-timers that trained me told me they were surprised when they actually landed still under power !

 

[Llewtrah381]

I got a demo flight at OSH from Dayton, mentioned above. Fortunately he's based 20 minutes away by air, so I took lessons, got my rating (not the Sport Pilot endorsement), and am a member of the "club" based on a Magni M-16.

To answer the OP, the Magni cruises around 100mph, which is typical for its competitors as well. You go too much faster than that and they start getting retreating blade stall, mentioned above. Generally not dangerous in a gyro but the stick shake starts getting annoying. The Magni has a useful load of about 700lb and not a lot of luggage capacity. It's basically a motorcycle in the air - and a hoot. You can't get a whole lot more open-air than in one of them.

That's good and bad. My wife won't go up in one (again) just yet, at least not an open cockpit like the M-16. Dayton has an M-24 on the way, and it's an enclosed side-by-side model, so I'll give that a try. And "open air" and "pusher" can be a risky proposition: I was giving a non-pilot friend his first ride in GA and he dropped his phone, bent to pick it up, stuck his head into the slipstream, and his headset was ripped off the cord and into the prop (I didn't even feel or hear the prop strike).

They are safe overall but it definitely takes some training to break some fixed-wing habits that don't translate well to gyros. The Magnis with their heavier rotor are even safer still.

But the insurance rates speak volumes: for identical coverage limits, I have my Warrior insured for $550/yr and a Magni would run me $3500-5500, depending on the insurer (and there aren't many).

Cross-country is definitely possible and best at 1000ft and below, which is a blast. To be honest, even in warm weather, getting much above that starts to get chilly.

And OMG, night flying in the Magni is surreal. We flew around Austin and it was like being in Blade Runner.

I toyed with Cubs, Kitfoxes/clones, and even a SeaRey. The gyro is in the same speed range but is WAY more stable in bumpy air because of the high wing loading. I routinely get tossed around in my Warrior going to the gyro and no-kidding can't even tell there's turbulence many times once I'm up in it.

If interested in the aerodynamics, go check out the FAA Handbook for rotorcraft (downloadable for free). Lots of very good info. They can have basically a zero ground roll to land but you need to be going about 55mph until very shortly before touchdown, so you can't truly do a vertical descent to a landing (safely).

They're a hoot. Go to the Ultralight area at OSH and snivel for a demo ride and check it out! And I can't speak highly enough about Dayton; he's an excellent instructor, very personable, a great pilot, and very focused on safety.

 

[Shepherd]

Yeah Shep many of the old-timers that trained me told me they were surprised when they actually landed still under power !

I was always shocked when I landed and was still alive.

 

[INTJ]

Back in the day, when we powered our Benson Gyrocopters with chainsaw motors or pterodactyls, accidents were a daily occurrence.
Many of the accidents were fatal because very few of us really knew what we were doing.
Those old crashes have permanently skewed the statistics.
Some of the new gyros are really beautiful, safe, traveling machines look for the "Gyro Girl" videos on Youtube.
For you geezers, Make sure your nitro pills are nearby.
She's hot and she likes to fly naked.

Yep! Gyrocopter Girl is THE best thing to happen to gyroplanes................

 

[Vance Breese]

The gyroplane I fly and train in is a one of a kind two place tandem designed and built by Mark Givans in 1999 with a Lycoming IO-320 for power

She will run along at 95kts if I climb to 7,500 feet and I have reached 12,800 feet.

She has a 700 pound useful load and holds 22 gallons of fuel burning between six and seven hours of 100LL per hour, more if I go faster.

Like airplanes different gyroplanes have different capabilities.

For me the destination is the excuse to go flying so I usually fly along at about 65kts and 1,000 feet AGL. For me going fast in a gyroplane is a little like hurrying sex.

I never fly direct to anywhere unless I have planned badly.

If it rains I get wet.

I don't generally fly further than 600 miles.

I am a Certificated Flight Instructor for Rotorcraft, Gyroplanes and fly out of Santa Maria, Ca.

A transition for a PPL to a sport pilot, gyroplane endorsement typically takes about ten hours of dual with an equal amount of ground. A knowledge test is not required and I am to train to proficiency and endorse you for a proficiency check ride with another gyroplane CFI. It can usually be done with two three day visits to Santa Maria.

In my opinion the most common accident in a gyroplane is to not manage the rotor on takeoff or try to rotate at some specific indicated air speed. It is usually not fatal but it is expensive. I feel it is a bad idea to accelerate with the cyclic forward and it is a common error for fixed wing pilot’s transitioning to gyroplanes.

In my opinion the most common cause of gyroplane misshapes is insufficient training. Old fixed wing habit can kick in at an inopportune moment.

I can usually have a fixed wing pilot doing all the ground reference maneuvers to practical test standards in the first hour of dual instruction and doing landings and takeoffs in the second hour.

If you just want to find out if you would like it I will give you the aircraft controls before we reach the end of the runway. Flying a gyroplane is not for everyone.

 

[lurkerLuke]

Thank you all for the replies, appreciate the enormous knowledge here. You are an awesome group. Even the b!tch!ing back and forth has value.
Regardless what you all think of him, I still miss @Tom-D.

 

[steingar]

I got a demo flight at OSH from Dayton, mentioned above.

My grandfather taught me to never play poker with anyone who was named after a city.

Now that I think of it, what were his parents thinking?! Lets name our precious baby boy after the only city in Ohio that makes Toledo look good?

 

[C-1 PILOT]

Although not as popular as they are in Europe, gyros are coming of age in the US. Auto Gyro has several models in their lineup, the Calidus, tandem is the first gyro to be certified in 40 years. It is one slick machine. It can be purchased certified or as a kit, built by the owner with assistance in a week or two.

I took a test flight in their open cockpit MTO Sport and I liked it a lot. The next model to be certified will be the side by side Cavalon. At least that's what I was told in April.

 

[Sundancer]

I'm not a gyro flyer. I think they are probably a fascinating and unusual way to induce death via blunt force trauma. With the right training, and attention to proficiency, you can probably ride bulls and survive, as well. Just that the margin for error is pretty narrow.

 

[Vance Breese]

I'm not a gyro flyer. I think they are probably a fascinating and unusual way to induce death via blunt force trauma. With the right training, and attention to proficiency, you can probably ride bulls and survive, as well. Just that the margin for error is pretty narrow.

It is my observation that most of the gyroplane accidents are directly attributable to the arrogance of people who imagine they can fly safely with poor or no training.

 

[Lowflynjack]

I'm not a gyro flyer. I think they are probably a fascinating and unusual way to induce death via blunt force trauma. With the right training, and attention to proficiency, you can probably ride bulls and survive, as well. Just that the margin for error is pretty narrow.

In aviation, we tend to think we know things when we really don't. If it's outside of the norm, it's not for us. When two of my friends decided to start teaching in, and selling gyros, I really thought I would lose one or both of them. Five years later, they both have over 2K hours in gyros accident free. Saying the margin for error is narrow is just bad info.

And as far as riding bulls, a lot of us survived that! Guess we are just amazing!

 

[Grum.Man]

Gyro's are very safe as long as you are trained. The takeoff and landing mode is very different than an airplane. A lot of the old accidents were attributed to this, that and the horrid array of engine choices used on the old Gyros. My dad's Benson had a 2 stroke 4 cylinder McCulloch that quit almost every time he flew it. A lot of them had auto conversions which we all know how most of them work. Gyroplanes also handle wind and turbulence very well. My only complaint is how expensive they are for what doesn't seem like a lot.

 

[Sundancer]

I stand corrected, or at least better informed. Probably still harbor reservations about the margins for error, vice a fixed wing aircraft, which is what God intended we fly. Gyro or helicopter, all are fling-wing suicide machines, malevolent and vicious, brooding and sulking, waiting for some rotating part to fail, the Jesus bolt to break, or a moment's inattention by the pilot - then to pounce! And to hurl man and machine against the cruel, hard earth. . .but I could be wrong.

 

[Pilawt]

Someone once defined "rotary-wing aircraft" as a whirling mass of metal fatigue surrounded by an oil slick.

 

[wrbix]

They don't really fly - they're so ugly the Earth rejects them.