Gulfstream Girl

[Eagle I]

As a woman, I've been following this thread with great interest. At first I was very disheartened by the misogynistic tone of some of the posts, but then plenty of people, including many men, jumped in to defend Gulfstream Girl. To them, I say, thank you. You've restored my faith in the basic goodness of people.

As a struggling student pilot, I can't begin to tell most of you what it's like to show up at the FBO to see only men, to be taught only by men who talk largely about "manly" things, to feel like something of an intruder in a man's world. I suppose it didn't help my training much that my CFI liked to joke, upon hearing a woman on the radio, "Oh no, another girl pilot, it's getting dangerous out here." And that was one of the milder things he said concerning women. I suppose I should have left this flight school right then and there, but instead I giggled nervously, wanting only to fit in. Sadly, I have since left this flight school, never to return, my training on hold for now, until I find a place that just feels better.

To all those who think GG has been given a huge break because of her looks and her gender, I would ask: Were you to have been offered the same opportunity to sit in the right seat of a Gulfstream at 250 TT and learn, would you have declined, citing safety reasons, because you didn't have enough hours, and feared what would happen if the captain had a heart attack? If anyone answers yes, I'll either be very impressed with your honesty, or your bull****!

Whatever my issues and experiences are, I'll leave you with this thought. Before I discovered this thread, I had never heard of Gulfstream Girl. Now I've looked at her Facebook page, and watched some of her videos, and I have to say, I think she's cool. Yes, dare I say it, a role model even! I watched that one video of her taking a student on a flight over New York City in the evening, and her enthusiasm for aviation was apparent. Her natural comfort in the cockpit was comforting. And I wished that my first few hours of flight had been with her, instead of with men who were so insecure that they had to be all over the controls, talking incessantly about how much they knew, and how good they were.

 

[Palmpilot]

I know a pilot whose looks have probably resulted in occasional opportunities that I haven't had, but I am also certain that her enthusiasm for aviation, her eagerness to learn, and her commitment to excellence have played an important role.

[Edit] And considering that discriminatory attitudes towards women in aviation apparently still exist (as noted in the post immediately before this one, for example), I doubt that any advantages even begin to compensate for them.

 

[Corpsmaide]

Reminds me of my first CFI, a woman. She was awesome, a tough trainer, and very knowledgeable. I'd still be flying with her if I hadn't left Georgia. I digress.



Kinda corny but oh we'll

This is my 99th post.....and I mentioned a female pilot....get it!

Me so corny

 

[Palmpilot]

I suppose it didn't help my training much that my CFI liked to joke, upon hearing a woman on the radio, "Oh no, another girl pilot, it's getting dangerous out here." And that was one of the milder things he said concerning women. I suppose I should have left this flight school right then and there, but instead I giggled nervously, wanting only to fit in. Sadly, I have since left this flight school, never to return, my training on hold for now, until I find a place that just feels better.

I'm sure there are many male flight insructors who don't have such attitudes, but there are also some female flight instructors scattered around. One possible way to find them, or perhaps to get recommendations of unprejudiced flight instructors in general, might be to see if there is a Ninety-Nines chapter near you.

http://www.ninety-nines.org/index.cfm/find_a_chapter.htm

 

[Eagle I]

Reminds me of my first CFI, a woman. She was awesome, a tough trainer, and very knowledgeable. I'd still be flying with her if I hadn't left Georgia. I digress.



Kinda corny but oh we'll

This is my 99th post.....and I mentioned a female pilot....get it!

Me so corny

I get it, and appreciate it!:wink2:

 

[Gerhardt]

To all those who think GG has been given a huge break because of her looks and her gender....

That goes without saying.

But I still don't fault her for taking advantage of a golden opportunity. And her tickets and ratings weren't just handed to her without a great deal of effort on her part.

 

[Eagle I]

That goes without saying.

But I still don't fault her for taking advantage of a golden opportunity. And her tickets and ratings weren't just handed to her without a great deal of effort on her part.

For better or worse, I think it's true that good-looking people of both genders get breaks in life that the rest of us don't. It's simply human nature. But I'm glad you recognize that she also had to work to get where she is. Übrigens, sind Sie Deutsche?:wink2:

 

[TMetzinger]

Nope as I said she earned her ratings but that's my third question. Is passing a G-II type rating at 250 hrs really enough experience to operate safely as SIC? I think the Colgan crash indicates that maybe more experience is better than just having a rating. If you think 250 if fine, awesome.

In the military, yes they are in the right seat as well with this kind of time. The difference is by the time they get there as a qualified crew member, they've gone through extensive ground and air training in that particular aircraft.

Dude... go look at how much experience the Colgan Captain and FO had.

 

[TMetzinger]

Right place, right time, who you know. Ask me how I know...

Jason, you're a hot manwhore too ;-)

 

[Skylane81E]

Ok, I played google and now I know who GG is.

Next question,

Who cares?

 

[Everskyward]

Being a female pilot has a double-edged sword aspect to it that neither side really wants to acknowledge. Yes, you may get some opportunities if you are young and pretty, but you may lose some too. People, especially other pilots, will probably underestimate you in the beginning which also has its plusses and minuses. The main difference I have seen is that you will be remembered by passengers and other people way more than your male counterparts. This can be good or bad depending on what their memories are.

I know that it sometime annoys the guys that people will have remembered me but not them.

As far as ribbing and teasing goes, I have found that in many cases this is something that guys do to each other too. Of course they don't tease each other about being female but they can be pretty hard on each other in a bonding sort of way.

 

[Morne]

As a struggling student pilot, I can't begin to tell most of you what it's like to show up at the FBO to see only men, to be taught only by men who talk largely about "manly" things, to feel like something of an intruder in a man's world. I suppose it didn't help my training much that my CFI liked to joke, upon hearing a woman on the radio, "Oh no, another girl pilot, it's getting dangerous out here." And that was one of the milder things he said concerning women. I suppose I should have left this flight school right then and there, but instead I giggled nervously, wanting only to fit in. Sadly, I have since left this flight school, never to return, my training on hold for now, until I find a place that just feels better.

Please find a new instructor with which to pursue the wonder of flight. I can think of at least 4 local female CFIs that cover every age range.

If you're ever in NE Ohio give a shout and we'll go up in my 182.

 

[Velocity173]

Dude... go look at how much experience the Colgan Captain and FO had.

Both had a decent amount of time. Both also reactly incorrectly to an emergency they should've been able to handle. I'm simply citing it as a case the FAA has used to promote the 1,500 hr ATP agenda.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Dude... go look at how much experience the Colgan Captain and FO had.

Air France Flight 447.

 

[Alexb2000]

Both had a decent amount of time. Both also reactly incorrectly to an emergency they should've been able to handle. I'm simply citing it as a case the FAA has used to promote the 1,500 hr ATP agenda.

That's what always bothered me about that deal. Both of them had plenty of time. If one had 1200 and the other 1350, OK, 1500 minimum "might" have made sense, but they both had well over 1500.

We seem to have become a culture that demands a regulatory change whenever a tragedy happens, whether it makes sense or not.

 

[N747JB]

I am sure it can be both good and bad to be an attractive female pilot, you might get a job opportunity because of looks, or might be denied an opportunity based on looks.
We were fishing in a tournament a few years ago and the boat docked beside us fired one of the mates. It appeared that the owner's wife would not allow a female on the boat with her husband! Even though the girl was a great fisherman and mate AND her boyfriend was the captain of the boat! We offered to let her fish with us, but she decided to drive home.

Being a female pilot has a double-edged sword aspect to it that neither side really wants to acknowledge. Yes, you may get some opportunities if you are young and pretty, but you may lose some too. People, especially other pilots, will probably underestimate you in the beginning which also has its plusses and minuses. The main difference I have seen is that you will be remembered by passengers and other people way more than your male counterparts. This can be good or bad depending on what their memories are.

I know that it sometime annoys the guys that people will have remembered me but not them.

As far as ribbing and teasing goes, I have found that in many cases this is something that guys do to each other too. Of course they don't tease each other about being female but they can be pretty hard on each other in a bonding sort of way.

 

[Eagle I]

If you're ever in NE Ohio give a shout and we'll go up in my 182.

Thanks, I might take you up on that someday! I have quite a few relatives in Canton, although I don't visit very often.

 

[Velocity173]

I just read all 23 pages of the Glamour Girl thread on the airline pilots forum. It's interesting that they're as divided on the subject there as we are here. Only we're nicer to each other.

I'm glad to see that it can be discussed as adults here. I did ask the Administrator to remove the thread early on because I thought it might cause some heartburn and name calling. Fortunately it's gone pretty well.

I appreciate everyone's comments on both sides. Do I really care if people get hired with the proper credentials and are in the right place at the right time? Nope. That's life. I just thought the timeline to getting into a FO position on a Gulfstream was much longer than getting 250 hrs over a short period of time. As I said, I've poured through page after page of FO openings and none came close to 250 hrs. To me that is a huge disparity between the norm and to what some people get for being right place and right time. In the company I work for they don't have the flexibility in reducing their minimums just because they think they've found God's gift to flying. Insurance premiums have set the bar pretty high when it comes to hours.

I guess I'm in the minority in that if I was in charge of a corporate charter company, I hire on flat out experience with little regard to anything else. I don't care about race, sex, friendship, or even family members. Why would I hire an FO with 250 hrs in a Gulfstream at 40 grand a year, when for the same price I can choose from a huge pool of pilots with far greater experience? Are these companies with a minimum of 1,500 or 2,500 hrs not finding qualified pilots?

I was always under the impression the life of a corporate pilot went something like this:
PPL/IFR-build time (250 hrs)
CFI/ME-buy block time or build time as CFI (500 hrs)
Fly Caravan-hauling freight for a couple years (1,000 hrs)
Twin engine piston or turbo prop job- fly your butt off (2,500 hrs)
First job as jet FO- build time and necessary experience (4,000 hrs)
Captain's chair- pinnacle of aviation (4000+ hrs)

Doing a timeline like that isn't about paying your dues either. Just because someone endures low pay flying CFI doesn't mean they deserve a big break over someone born with a silver spoon in their mouth. I'm saying that timeline reflects the kind of experience I would want to hire someone for their first FO position. Maybe that's an unrealistic requirement or over qualification. I don't know.

 

[MSPAviator]

If you have to look for a job using publically accessible listings, you're already behind the curve.

Most jobs are found through networking or knowing someone.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I haven't read all this thread so forgive me if this has already been brought up. Wasn't there an episode in the Ice Fliers (or whatever they called that program) where the girl came back and they put her right in the DC-3 to the chagrin of the line boys who'd been "working their way up"?

Ice Pilots NWT. As I recall, she jumped ahead of ONE guy, who had a perpetually bad attitude and complained a lot. No wonder they weren't so eager to get him in front of customers.

 

[Everskyward]

I guess I'm in the minority in that if I was in charge of a corporate charter company, I hire on flat out experience with little regard to anything else.

What do you mean by "flat out experience"? Probably one of the more toxic situations is when you have two high-time guys who don't care for each other and who both think they know best, flying together.

I would pick someone according to personality, attitude and ability to learn. Granted, they need to have the technical skills, but to do corporate or charter you need to be at least somewhat of a people person as you also end up acting as the concierge and the flight attendant (unless you fly with a flight attendant). You also need to be able to get along with your crewmembers. If you fly with each other all the time you get to know each other very well, which would include all the annoying traits the other person might have.

 

[PPC1052]

Being a female pilot has a double-edged sword aspect to it that neither side really wants to acknowledge. Yes, you may get some opportunities if you are young and pretty, but you may lose some too. People, especially other pilots, will probably underestimate you in the beginning which also has its plusses and minuses. The main difference I have seen is that you will be remembered by passengers and other people way more than your male counterparts. This can be good or bad depending on what their memories are.

I know that it sometime annoys the guys that people will have remembered me but not them.

As far as ribbing and teasing goes, I have found that in many cases this is something that guys do to each other too. Of course they don't tease each other about being female but they can be pretty hard on each other in a bonding sort of way.

100% agree.

 

[Velocity173]

If you have to look for a job using publically accessible listings, you're already behind the curve.

Most jobs are found through networking or knowing someone.

While I knew a pilot in the company of my current job (HEMS), he had no connections with management. I got the job because my hours (4,000) doubled the minimum required for the job, and my experience (combat IP) had some relevance in what I do. Believe it or not there are those of us who get hired on experience and not who we know in the company or any previous networking in the company.

 

[Velocity173]

What do you mean by "flat out experience"? Probably one of the more toxic situations is when you have two high-time guys who don't care for each other and who both think they know best, flying together.

I would pick someone according to personality, attitude and ability to learn. Granted, they need to have the technical skills, but to do corporate or charter you need to be at least somewhat of a people person as you also end up acting as the concierge and the flight attendant (unless you fly with a flight attendant). You also need to be able to get along with your crewmembers. If you fly with each other all the time you get to know each other very well, which would include all the annoying traits the other person might have.

Flat out experience meaning hours and previous type of flying, I would put a heavy weight on. Obviously I would consider a persons attitude. Almost every job qualification I've looked at requires people skills and a service based attitude. I simply would hire based on qualifications. I don't consider race, gender, friendship, or family as qualifications. Pride in appearance yes, attractiveness (male or female), no.

I would hope that a 2,500 hr FO isn't butting heads with a briefed, qualified 8,000 hr Captain. If they are applying appropriate CRM, it shouldn't be an issue but yes I imagine there are rare cases where type A personalities clash. I wouldn't hire someone thinking because they have a decent amount of time, that would conflict with the Captain. I think it would be a bit difficult to determine from a single interview if someone will work well with others.

 

[weilke]

Why would you want to hire someone as FO who has the hours to work as captain somewhere else ? Another place offers him a captain gig and he is gone.

 

[Everskyward]

I imagine there are rare cases where type A personalities clash.

I don't think it's all that rare. Do you read this board much?

 

[Ventucky Red]

I will give the young lady credit for doing one superb job of promoting herself.. Which in my opinion is something many kids these days are to lazy to do as they expect everything to be handed to them..

I don't think that is the case here as I am sensing a Type A Driven personality..

Good for her, maybe she is a natural pilot... I have been told there are such things.

Oh! My last coast to coast flight had two females on the flight deck and an all male attendant crew... And the first officer was pretty hot... opps I mean very attractive by today's airline standards

 

[Velocity173]

I don't think it's all that rare. Do you read this board much?

Lol! Yeah you do have a point there. Despite the fact some threads turn into a clash of egos, I've learned a lot from some of the senior posters. I think we do pretty good in that the threads don't turn into a two bit YouTube cussing match.

 

[us AAirways]

If the Gulfstream Girl weighed 300lbs she probably wouldn't be there because she "doesn't meet the insurance requirements..."

Anyone who thinks that good looking men and women don't get treated better because they are good looking is wrong.

 

[wabower]

When I was buying a G-V for a local guy, one of our prospects was owned by a pro golfer from Australia. The SIC was a very attractive gal with whom I spent quite a bit of time discussing various options for programming the FMS, and whom I was able to observe during the trips from my perch on the jumpseat..

She was a lot prettier than the guy in the left seat, but as sharp as they come as a pilot. And then there was the knockout who didn't meet the insurance requirements for the 650 but was told by one of the senior pilots to go back home and "work on her logbook" so they could hire her.

 

[Velocity173]

Please do not post any external links onto this thread. Thank you.

 

[alfadog]

Meh. Yes, she probably got a break for her looks. So what. Not my type and there are more attractive gals on this board (don't like skinny "model look", personally). Means nothing. Maybe she has a fantastic personality to go with it. Who cares. Last I heard, a private party can hire someone based on pretty much anything they like, especially in a casual process such as what appeared to have happened here. Firing them being another matter.

And if she makes the best of it on a public relations front and people like her, again so what.

I did get a kick out of her promoting "her creation" of a normally-priced discovery flight as a 57% discount. LOL.

http://aviloop.com/new-york/deal/first-flying-lesson-2

Looking for a flight school in NY area? This is the one I fly with. I created this deal for you guys so you can get an intro lesson plus all sorts of goodies for $149.
First Flying Lesson
FARMINGDALE, NEW YORK
$149 BUY!
Value $349
Discount 57%
You Save $200

 

[weilke]

I did get a kick out of her promoting "her creation" of a normally-priced discovery flight as a 57% discount. LOL.

This was the entire business model of groupon.

 

[MSPAviator]

I did get a kick out of her promoting "her creation" of a normally-priced discovery flight as a 57% discount. LOL.

Some guys might pay good money to be stuck with her in a Cessna 152 for 30 minutes!

 

[wickedsprint]

There seem to be a lot of people threatened by a low time attractive female flying jets.

No need to be insecure.

Good job Gulfstream Girl.

 

[weilke]

There seem to be a lot of people threatened by a low time attractive female flying jets.

Used to be that way in medicine, law and research. Aviation will come around eventually.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Probably one of the more toxic situations is when you have two high-time guys who don't care for each other and who both think they know best, flying together.

That sounds like any flight on Air India...

 

[Ted]

That sounds like any flight on Air India...

Or any of the charter flights with the boss. Doubly so since he considered op specs to be a challenge. The more he could violate in one flight the better.

 

[alfadog]

This was the entire business model of groupon.

That is true. And $149 for what they are offering is a pretty fair deal, especially in the NYC area but I am sure it can be easily matched elsewhere in the area.

 

[alfadog]

Some guys might pay good money to be stuck with her in a Cessna 152 for 30 minutes!

I doubt she will be in the airplane. And I took a few lessons in an Arrow from a CFII that was at least as attractive. I switched schools when I discovered that the owner had no intention to keep his Arrow IFR-current.

And so I do not get that "Useless without pictures" thingy: