Grumman electrical failure. Crashes into Cessna on runway.

KE5BM said:
I think you might have stumbled across the single best way to explain this to a new pilot of *ahem* this era. Then again...I fear my oldest son (12 years old right now) may be one of the few in today's society who has actually USED a gas-powered mower.
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Every generation has its own analogies :)
 
FastEddieB said:
“Tunnel vision” and “task fixation” can be powerful, especially under stress, and likely played a role here.
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This x1000. I have no idea what this guy is (idiot, unlucky, arrogant, or any other thing). Nor am I explaining away what he did.

Not to speak for anyone else - but I think what Nauga may be getting at is a little more inspection (and reflection) and a little less judgement could be a life saver.

Fortunately- I’ve never seen it in the cockpit, but I have been there on multiple dives in highly challenging environments (technical or borderline) where HIGHLY competent and experienced divers will have the most inexplicable reactions to a problem or emergency. And you cannot break them away from it. Hence, a no dive buddy - ‘better thee than me’ mantra in tech diving.

Of course we all practice emergency flying procedures- but how do you really ever prep yourself for the surprise element of a true emergency.
 
asicer said:
"If you drive a Tesla to 0% battery, do the lights and radio still work?" :)
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Little known fact: Teslas have 2 batteries ... the huge one under the floor, and a regular 12v car battery in the front trunk. The smaller battery powers the operating system. So even if the Tesla is driven to 0% power, the computer and controls still work. Conversely, you can be at 100% charge but the car will be inoperable if the 12v battery is dead.
 
I can understand how it happened. He was locked onto landing right now and right here. Wide open spaces on both sides. The opportunity advance the throttle and go around. He had tunnel vision. I'm not saying it's right or justifiable, I'm just saying if you consider human factors, it's understandable. Perhaps a function of training is to broaden the vision and consider other options.
 
In motorcycle riding we are encouraged to "look where you want to go, not where you're going" and I believe the same applies here. You must have a view both physically & realistically of where you want to go instead of where you are headed. I believe that @LesGawlik is correct citing tunnel vision as the root cause ...
 
francisco collazos said:
I think if something as simple as a gust lock can take down a decorated F-14 pilot, we should all be a little more humble.
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Nah. If I do something as stupid as this or not removing a gust lock, you’d better make fun of it. Anything less is normalization of deviation. I do NOT accept this as behavior not open to criticism.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Little known fact: Teslas have 2 batteries ... the huge one under the floor, and a regular 12v car battery in the front trunk. The smaller battery powers the operating system. So even if the Tesla is driven to 0% power, the computer and controls still work. Conversely, you can be at 100% charge but the car will be inoperable if the 12v battery is dead.
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Yep - and frustratingly annoying when you have a full 85kw battery and can go nowhere because of a stupid 12v. That said - the dumb “little” battery and one (soon to be two) sets of tires are the only thing I’ve had to do to the car in 13 years. Still on the original brakes. 117k miles and going strong.
 
Salty said:
Nah. If I do something as stupid as this or not removing a gust lock, you’d better make fun of it. Anything less is normalization of deviation. I do NOT accept this as behavior not open to criticism.
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I guess this is my objection. Too many times I have seen a pitiful explanation followed by normalization of deviance and the pronouncement "it could happen to anyone".

I have no skin in this game. I cannot control who flies a pattern behind me or revoke anyone's certificate. But, maybe the PIC should explain himself. I mean, for the benefit of those who can.
 
JackL-3J said:
Fixed that.
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In your efforts to justify your point, you’re missing the point.

100% of all mental stress is imagined. 100%.

Whether the emergency was real or not (and I believe it was not) is actually irrelevant. It is the reaction of the self created stress that’s the issue. That is the learning opportunity.

It’s fun to laugh at - and believe me, I had a chuckle and a ‘what a moron’ reaction too. But - recognizing that it could happen to you is not “normalizing” or “excusing” behavior. It’s humility and self preservation to recognize it and examine how one might make the same mistake. It’s not about “them”.

Not to sound rude - but I could give a damn about whoever that guy is. I give a damn about my life and the lives of those I could negatively impact.
 
Learnin’ to fly… said:
100% of all mental stress is imagined. 100%.
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really? If you were on fire, you would certainly be mentally stressed, and I do not see any way to pretend that would be imagined.
 
Salty said:
really? If you were on fire, you would certainly be mentally stressed, and I do not see any way to pretend that would be imagined.
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The monk who set himself ablaze in Vietnam seemed pretty calm to me.

I work in a field where the average person would lose their minds doing what we do on an average day. There are professions out there where what I think is crazy is normal. Most people cannot fathom driving a car at 100mph. There are those who do it daily at 200+. It's all relative. And therefore, 100% in one's head depending on what their individual experience is.

Same goes for physical, too. I was once an EMT and one of the early lessons is when you ask a patient about pain level on the 1-10 scale, you immediately follow up with "what's the worst pain you've ever felt?" For one person, a paper cut may have been the worst. For another, it could be a no-medication child birth. I worked a lady once who had fallen and broken her hip. Her pain level? 4. Later that afternoon, I worked a man with what was ultimately determined to be a migraine headache. HIs level? 9.
 
Anyone can get tunnel vision.

I had a student. I pulled the engine (C-150) on him right over an airport. He did a perfect job of handling the engine out and a perfect pattern. To a field across the street from the airport. On climb out, I took the plane and told him that he did a great job, but why not land on the runway. He turned white as a sheet. He never saw the runway.
 
Pinecone said:
Anyone can get tunnel vision.

I had a student. I pulled the engine (C-150) on him right over an airport. He did a perfect job of handling the engine out and a perfect pattern. To a field across the street from the airport. On climb out, I took the plane and told him that he did a great job, but why not land on the runway. He turned white as a sheet. He never saw the runway.
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Are you my CFI??
 
Sadly I have numerous "ADD history" candidates who cannot pass the FAA's "brain efficeincy testing". The most common comment after "this is unfair", is "I got distracted".

Go figure.
 
bbchien said:
Sadly I have numerous "ADD history" candidates who cannot pass the FAA's "brain efficeincy testing". The most common comment after "this is unfair", is "I got distracted".

Go figure.
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Having literally just escaped from high school, I don't have a very high opinion of what passes for an education system in this country. IMHO, teaching is an afterthought, if it is thought of at all, in a social experiment to convince everybody that they can do anything without any sort of training whatsoever. (Absurdly, while not permitting anyone to actually do anything at all.)

Someone's signature here quotes Will Rodgers: "Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects." Those of us capable of learning, all learn differently. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses that could be addressed to help each of us reach our potential. (Even though they usually are not.)

Sturgeon's Law says that "80% of everything is dreck". And, while I'm sure that roughly 80% of my age-group is comprised of idiots, I am not certain that the numbers increase dramatically in older populations other than by attrition. I'd like to think that as a group, people who can pass the medical and training requirements for FAA certificates were all above average.

Sometimes, though, I wonder.
 
LesGawlik said:
He was locked onto landing right now and right here. Wide open spaces on both sides. The opportunity advance the throttle and go around. He had tunnel vision.
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… sounds plausible.

Consider training/practice for abnormal procedures.
(a) electric failure (checklist/memory item):
land as soon as practical

as separate from:
(b) runway unsafe/occupied:
go around

-Are (a) and (b) practiced, together?
-Could tunnel vision focus on (a) cause failure to consider (b)?
-Under stress, could ‘as soon as practical’ become, as soon as possible?
Perhaps a function of training is to broaden the vision and consider other options.
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:thumbsup:
Ref: Impulsivity
Nevertheless, see and avoid.
 
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Rene said:
Sturgeon's Law says that "80% of everything is dreck". And, while I'm sure that roughly 80% of my age-group is comprised of idiots, I am not certain that the numbers increase dramatically in older populations other than by attrition. I'd like to think that as a group, people who can pass the medical and training requirements for FAA certificates were all above average.

Sometimes, though, I wonder.
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Maybe not 80%, but remember, 1/2 of the population has an IQ of less than 100. And about 16% are less than 85 IQ.

WRT our education system, how is a teacher supposed to teach a blended class, where out of 30 students on average, 5 are under 85 IQ and 5 are over 115, and the rest between 85 and 115. One is likely to be over 130 and one under 70.

This assuming a standard deviation of 15. Some IQ tests are 16, but close enough.

Personally, I think a lot of children labeled ADD or ADHD are just too smart and boring in class. So they don't pay attention and tend to try to talk to the others. BT, DT.
 
Pinecone said:
Personally, I think a lot of children labeled ADD or ADHD are just too smart and boring in class. So they don't pay attention and tend to try to talk to the others. BT, DT.
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Yep.
 
Pinecone said:
Maybe not 80%, but remember, 1/2 of the population has an IQ of less than 100. And about 16% are less than 85 IQ.

WRT our education system, how is a teacher supposed to teach a blended class, where out of 30 students on average, 5 are under 85 IQ and 5 are over 115, and the rest between 85 and 115. One is likely to be over 130 and one under 70.

This assuming a standard deviation of 15. Some IQ tests are 16, but close enough.

Personally, I think a lot of children labeled ADD or ADHD are just too smart and boring in class. So they don't pay attention and tend to try to talk to the others. BT, DT.
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Our publicly funded educational system was designed 150 or so years ago to supply workers for the emerging factory system in the United States. It simply isn't suitable for life in the first quarter of the 21st century.

IMHO, the schools that do the best at teaching individual students - whatever their abilities may be - do so by addressing them as individuals rather than as a group. This isn't economically feasible for public brick and mortar schools.

Those that do the next best separate the whole into as many cohorts as possible. But, this isn't politically feasible, snce it demonstrates that people are different.

Both of my sons have graduated from college. Neither of them finished high school. When their parents decided that they were ready, we simply switched which institution we were sending them to.
 
JackL-3J said:
Our publicly funded educational system was designed 150 or so years ago to supply workers for the emerging factory system in the United States. It simply isn't suitable for life in the first quarter of the 21st century.

IMHO, the schools that do the best at teaching individual students - whatever their abilities may be - do so by addressing them as individuals rather than as a group. This isn't economically feasible for public brick and mortar schools.

Those that do the next best separate the whole into as many cohorts as possible. But, this isn't politically feasible, snce it demonstrates that people are different.
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IMO, the big change and failure is the concept that all kids are equal and should be assigned in classes randomly. No advanced classes. No separating the smarter students from the slower ones, so each group can be taught at an appropriate pace.

And mixing in special ed is nuts. What does that accomplish.
 
Pinecone said:
No advanced classes. No separating the smarter students from the slower ones, so each group can be taught at an appropriate pace.
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There are far more advanced classes now. Many large school districts now have magnet schools with competitive entrance processes.
 
Pinecone said:
IMO, the big change and failure is the concept that all kids are equal and should be assigned in classes randomly. No advanced classes. No separating the smarter students from the slower ones, so each group can be taught at an appropriate pace.

And mixing in special ed is nuts. What does that accomplish.
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There's lots of data that shows that of you treat kids like they're smart, they act that way and do better. And if you treat them like they're not smart.....
 
Pinecone said:
And mixing in special ed is nuts. What does that accomplish.
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It socializes them as well as educating them enough that they can hopefully lead productive lives instead of living in an institution the way they would have years ago.

And hopefully it teaches the other kids at least something about how to treat people who are different than they are.
 
This incident made my head hurt and left me embarrassed for my fellow Grumman pilots. I can't for the life of me figure out how a (likely) dead battery caused an emergency panic and runway collision with a near fatality. And then have the lack of self awareness to think this was an acceptable outcome and post on social media?

This is not something that "could have happened to any of us." It could have only happened to someone poorly trained in (or malevolently incurious about) aircraft systems and emergency procedures. It never pays to do the minimum to scrape by your PPL.

How many of us here have had mag failures, vacuum failures, gyro failures, battery/electrical failures (yes those, too), alternator belt failures (with a nice big bang), spinner failures, and maybe even a partial or total engine failure and managed not to panic and cause a serious incident? As "incidents" go, this one was the bunny slope of emergencies for our intrepid Grumman pilot. And he managed an epic fail nonetheless.
 
chemgeek said:
This is not something that "could have happened to any of us." It could have only happened to someone poorly trained in (or malevolently incurious about) aircraft systems and emergency procedures. It never pays to do the minimum to scrape by your PPL.

. . . . As "incidents" go, this one was the bunny slope of emergencies for our intrepid Grumman pilot. And he managed an epic fail nonetheless.
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Methinks, thou are too kind in your assessment.
 
My POH says emergency procedure for electrical system failure is "land as soon as practical if electrical power needed for continued flight."
 
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