GPS Direct or: How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Magenta Line

HighFlyingA380

HighFlyingA380

Cleared for Takeoff
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Display name:
Jim F.
Stumbled upon this video, which is quite frankly, absolutely shocking to me:

Aside from the expected Monday morning quarterback comments regarding the pilots' preflight planning and IFR proficiency, what sort of responsibility would/should be applied to ATC in a situation such as this?

It seems to me after pulling teeth, as well as the pilot admitting he only expected/wanted vectors and GPS direct, that ATC might not issue a clearance due to safety concerns. What sort of rules regarding such are on the books, or perhaps case law resulting from a different outcome? Regardless, do y'all agree or not with them being able to cancel a clearance if they feel it wouldn't be prudent for the pilot to depart?
 
That was painful to listen to, gotta love the "overs" though, I was waiting for him to sign off with a "over and out" :wink2:
 
Short of some sort of national security threat, they have no authority in keeping him grounded. We went through this with the female student out in AZ where the tower controller told her to return to the field.

Once this guy has a pilot deviation, then they have something to send to the FSDO. Until then, stay clear of this guy and hope he doesn't hit you!:D
 
It's not really ATC's job to police instrument clearances. However, there is some concern that he may not be able to execute it, endangering himself, people on the ground, or other aircraft.

However, if he never read it back correctly, there isn't a clearance at all.

So, did that guy survive the flight? Ho Lee Crap I would not be happy if I were a controller, or another nearby pilot.

We had an incompetent instrument pilot here a few years ago. He attempted a 0/0 takeoff, lost it right after rotation, and hit a transmission line at 220 knots. Killed several Tesla executives, put parts of his 310 on a local day care center (fortunately, no one on the ground got hurt), and knocked out the power for several hundred thousand customers.

The fog was bad enough that SFO had a ground stop at the time. That's not common. And it cleared up less than an hour later.

That's a case where one can reasonably argue ATC might not give a clearance. STAHOOPID. But it's "not their job," so they let him go even though part 121/135 traffic was prohibited from doing so.
 
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I bet he gets complimented on his instruments all the time.
 
Another thought, what was the wx like? Did he even NEED to be IFR?
 
Heh. Surprised he's not based in the midwest.

You'll literally never receive anything but direct in the vast majority of the midwest. Plenty of midwest instrument pilots I know would have absolutely no idea how to fly a SID...and would sound just like that guy.
 
jesse said:
Heh. Surprised he's not based in the midwest.

You'll literally never receive anything but direct in the vast majority of the midwest. Plenty of midwest instrument pilots I know would have absolutely no idea how to fly a SID...and would sound just like that guy.
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It's always a pleasant surprise when I'm outside the NE region and get a direct clearance.
 
And unfortunately I might run into (hopefully not literally) that guy. TKI is just down the road from my home drome
 
jesse said:
Heh. Surprised he's not based in the midwest.

You'll literally never receive anything but direct in the vast majority of the midwest. Plenty of midwest instrument pilots I know would have absolutely no idea how to fly a SID...and would sound just like that guy.
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I did my IR in Dubuque, IA. Instructors there routinely pointed us at the MKE-ORD coridor to make sure we didn't get a ticket having never heard a clearance more complex than "as filed".
 
Lindberg said:
ATC: Taxi via Alpha.
Pilot: Roger, taxing via Bravo.
ATC: Whatever.

:dunno:
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Lol! It's like well, he's heading north to the approach end and that's all that matters right now.
 
Velocity173 said:
Lol! It's like well, he's heading north to the approach end and that's all that matters right now.
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I could almost hear the controller thinking, "I don't really care where you go or how you get there, just go."
 
JCranford said:
And unfortunately I might run into (hopefully not literally) that guy. TKI is just down the road from my home drome
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I know... Painfull to listen too and sorta embarrassed he was in our back yard.

(Note to self, bookmark this as reminder to not be that guy. And share with our tower controllers :devil: )
 
RotorDude said:
The worst kind of pilot is the one who doesn't know, and doesn't know he doesn't know. Let's hope this guy knows enough to hang'm up.
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Not sure I would go that far, perhaps he realized he's got some holes in his IFR game and found a good CFII
 
JCranford said:
And unfortunately I might run into (hopefully not literally) that guy. TKI is just down the road from my home drome
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My thought as well. I did initial training at McKinny, but I've run West. Apparently I got tired of running quickly so I'm out of Hicks :)
 
Guys like this are the perfect opportunity for low-time IR guys to ride along and help with the flight. Make a few bucks as well.
 
I could only listen to half of it, my ears started bleeding!! We can all screw up a clearance, but this guy sounded like a Tim Conway/Harvey Corman skit!! :hairraise::hairraise: It would have been funny if it wasn't so sad.
 
I wonder how much less fluster there would have been if the controller had caught that the guy wasn't copying the VOR name "QUIPMAN" correctly. Things seemed to go downhill fast from the fast that he kept misparsing the phrase as "Equipment Transition."
 
flyingron said:
I wonder how much less fluster there would have been if the controller had caught that the guy wasn't copying the VOR name "QUIPMAN" correctly. Things seemed to go downhill fast from the fast that he kept misparsing the phrase as "Equipment Transition."
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I listened to it last night but forgot. Did the controller give the pilot the identifier for Quipman? I think that would have helped the pilot who was obviously trying to find it in his GPS. The controller did give him the frequency though.
 
He got one of the more patient controllers at TKI. I'd love to hear how that goes down with one of the others that gets frustrated easily.
 
flyingron said:
I wonder how much less fluster there would have been if the controller had caught that the guy wasn't copying the VOR name "QUIPMAN" correctly. Things seemed to go downhill fast from the fast that he kept misparsing the phrase as "Equipment Transition."
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Certainly would have helped, but the controller has to also assume that the pilot is looking at the SID in question. The HUBBARD EIGHT doesn't have anything else on it that would be confused with "QUITMAN", and as it's one of the established transitions, should have been readily apparent what the clearance is.

However, of course, the unprepared pilot obviously didn't have the approach book with him or wouldn't have been looking on the IFR Low Chart to find the VOR. Same confusion on the "SOLDO/SOLO" issue. He never actually says he doesn't have the approach charts, just implies it with his comment about the Low IFR chart. Which is even more unprepared. (I'm assuming he's using paper products, as if he's using an EFB he clearly doesn't know how to properly use one.)

Got to be one of the most patient controllers I've heard!
 
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James331 said:
Not sure I would go that far, perhaps he realized he's got some holes in his IFR game and found a good CFII
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Maybe he was still in training with a CFII in the right seat letting him stumble through and learn something by doing it himself.
 
PPC1052 said:
Maybe he was still in training with a CFII in the right seat letting him stumble through and learn something by doing it himself.
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If there was a CFI on board I wouldn't have let it go that far, especially the taxi instructions.
 
RussR said:
However, of course, the unprepared pilot obviously didn't have the approach book with him or wouldn't have been looking on the IFR Low Chart to find the VOR.
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It seemed obvious that he didn't have the SID chart available. Isn't that a requirement to accept a SID clearance? Should the controller have queried him if he had the chart?

I guess this guy forgot he could put "NO SIDs" in the comments of his flight plan.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
Aside from the expected Monday morning quarterback comments regarding the pilots' preflight planning and IFR proficiency, what sort of responsibility would/should be applied to ATC in a situation such as this?
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To ensure that all clearance items that are read back are read back correctly and to correct those that are not read back correctly.

It seems to me after pulling teeth, as well as the pilot admitting he only expected/wanted vectors and GPS direct, that ATC might not issue a clearance due to safety concerns.
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There's no basis for that.

What sort of rules regarding such are on the books, or perhaps case law resulting from a different outcome?
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None.

Regardless, do y'all agree or not with them being able to cancel a clearance if they feel it wouldn't be prudent for the pilot to depart?
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Not.
 
PPC1052 said:
It seemed obvious that he didn't have the SID chart available. Isn't that a requirement to accept a SID clearance? Should the controller have queried him if he had the chart?

I guess this guy forgot he could put "NO SIDs" in the comments of his flight plan.
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You can still be issued the SID. The controller would have to give a description of it, which is exactly what the controller did.
 
RussR said:
Certainly would have helped, but the controller has to also assume that the pilot is looking at the SID in question. The HUBBARD EIGHT doesn't have anything else on it that would be confused with "QUITMAN", and as it's one of the established transitions, should have been readily apparent what the clearance is.
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But that would be a bad assumption on the part of the controller unless the pilot filed that departure and was expecting it, which he obviously wasn't.
 
PPC1052 said:
It seemed obvious that he didn't have the SID chart available. Isn't that a requirement to accept a SID clearance?
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It's not a regulatory requirement, pretty much a practical requirement though.

Should the controller have queried him if he had the chart?
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It appears the controller concluded he didn't have the chart when he spelled out the applicable portions to him.

I guess this guy forgot he could put "NO SIDs" in the comments of his flight plan.
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Putting that in remarks just means you won't get the SID in coded format, it'll be read to you in full.
 
I learned that you're supposed to possess at least the textual description of a DP or STAR in order to accept it as simply a named procedure/transition. Otherwise you should tell them you don't have that procedure and get ready for a full route clearance. You are, however, supposed to possess at least an en route chart, which would have the VORs and freqs on it. And it'd be a pretty good idea to maybe look at it beforehand or have it available.

Much of this pilot's initial confusion stemmed from his not having the Hubbard 8 DP in front of him. In addition to that, many IFR pilots never use DPs or STARs at their home dromes. The "Quitman" misunderstanding seems a result of a) unfamiliarity, but also b) not looking at his enroute chart, which would have shown it. He eventually did look at his chart but how prepared is this guy?

It's not the controller's job to divine whether the guy is current or even qualified. It's the controller's job to get a good read back. I don't think that ever happened. I've heard confused pilots on the radio many times, especially foreign pilots with poor English skills, student pilots, and most of all foreign student pilots.

The pilot should have admitted to not knowing WTF the Hubbard 8 was but also the controller could have asked - and in fact he did in a sense. He began reading the radials instead of just giving the DP.

But yeah what is the controller's responsibility when they can't get a good read back out of a pilot? Cancel IFR clearance? Do you wish to depart VFR?
 
Pilot preparedness is definitely an issue here.

I was taught that for a novice IFR pilot (like me) to do at least an hour of route prep for any cross country IFR flight. This includes checking Fltplan.com and others if a SID is used. And if it is, then study it and be ready to copy/make use if it's part of my clearance.

Knowing that the SID is to be part of the plan makes working with clearance delivery much simpler.

The mooney pilot clearly wasn't properly prepared. I'll give him a slight bit for not being a local, but that should have cause him to make an bigger effort to study up on how to get out of town.

If he was this confused on the ground, how bad would it have been in the air?


On an added note, my IFR examiner did emphasize the risk management items of PAVE and IM SAFE. In my opinion, the mooney pilot definitely hit on one of these and should have called off the flight until he was better prepared.
 
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