GPS and Instrument training

brien23

brien23

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Is it important that planes at flight schools have GPS in their panels for the IFR rating. Is not having this ok for IFR training, or should instruction AC have GPS. If you add GPS training it will take longer to get through. You can't just train just enough to do some monkey see monkey do approach you need to understand the GPS you use, if you have a state of the art GPS that will add time to understand. Time is money just how much do you want to pay for the IFR rating. GPS is great and I am not against it, the question is the extra cost of training.
 
15 hrs of instrument instruction time is more than enough for the average pilot to learn whatever system is in the airplane for an IR. Having GPS would not add significant training time IMO. And to your question is it important that GPS be in the training aircraft..... I wouldn't say "No" flat out, but I do think if the aircraft is IFR certified in any manner the critical components of the IFR rating can be covered. So much of it is just learning communications, procedures, regulations, and basic flight control in IMC. All of that has zero to do with GPS.

When new avionics are introduced, training will be required whether the pilot is in IFR training or whether the pilot already has an IR. My $0.02.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The corollary question would be, how are you planning to learn it afterwards?
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If it's in the plane for the IFR ride the DPE can ask you be able to use all the functions of the GPS installed failure to use one function is cause for failure.
 
brien23 said:
If it's in the plane for the IFR ride the DPE can ask you be able to use all the functions of the GPS installed failure to use one function is cause for failure.
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I thought from your OP it wasn’t (or wouldn’t be) in the panel. Yes, if it’s there, you need to demonstrate proficiency with it.

but the question remains...if you get your instrument rating without GPS, Per your OP, How are you planning on learning it afterwards?

Also, it’d have to be a pretty important “one function” of the GPS to bust a checkride over “failure to use one function”.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
I thought from your OP it wasn’t (or wouldn’t be) in the panel. Yes, if it’s there, you need to demonstrate proficiency with it.

but the question remains...if you get your instrument rating without GPS, Per your OP, How are you planning on learning it afterwards?
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Reading. Tutorials. Training programs/apps/software. Further instruction from a CFI familiar with the installed equipment. I fly with my CFI regularly, even if not currently focused on a specific additional rating. Nothing says you can't get training on GPS after you get an IR rating without one.
I've been wrestling with the same thing...the question whether or not to equip before or after getting the rating. I'm very comfortable with the current very minimal but IFR legal equipment in my plane. Right now, I'm leaning towards the "do one thing at a time, do it very well, then move on" approach. Get the IR with the existing VOR/ILS equipment.... Then equip with GPS and get whatever additional training is necessary to feel comfortable with the new equipment.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I thought from your OP it wasn’t (or wouldn’t be) in the panel. Yes, if it’s there, you need to demonstrate proficiency with it.

but the question remains...if you get your instrument rating without GPS, Per your OP, How are you planning on learning it afterwards?

Also, it’d have to be a pretty important “one function” of the GOS to bust a checkride over “failure to use one function”.
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That was my assumption as well: GPS would not be in the aircraft for the checkride. If it would be, you better know how to use it. Same goes for every single piece of avionics and knowledge about SOPs for that aircraft.

As far as how to learn afterwards, I think this speaks a lot to personal minimums which are extremely important to the IR pilot. Weather minimums are often the main focus, but avionics just as critical. I may be legal to hop in a G1000 equipped aircraft in IMC, but the question of "is this a good idea?" must be applied. Get with someone who is proficient and use that person as a safety pilot. Enroll in webinars. Go to training facility. Read articles and watch YouTube videos. Basically, get proficient. There was a whole lot of IR pilots who had their rating when GPS was first implemented. As far as I know, they didn't take a checkride to start using it.
 
I think folks have answered pretty well.
I'll add my two cents as well.

No, you don't need a GPS in the plane to get your instrument rating.
However, it's getting increasingly hard to get your three different approach types without one.
As already mentioned, learning will go fairly quickly.
You can also sit in the hangar and play with it, or download a simulator (if it's Garmin), and learn off-line.
It really doesn't take too long to learn.

I'm glad I did my training with my GTN-650, as I use it extensively when in the soup.
 
KeepWatch said:
There was a whole lot of IR pilots who had their rating when GPS was first implemented. As far as I know, they didn't take a checkride to start using it.
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True, but the pilots who are proficient in its use got some form of training, which was the thrust of my question to the OP...if he feels it would take too much money for the instructor to teach it, the implication Is that he can’t learn it on his own. Anything else is going to cost money.
 
I'm not sure why you wouldn't want GPS.. more and more RNAV approaches are showing up, and you're more likely than not (in my experience) to be given an RNAV instead of something like an ILS or localizer. The RNAV signal also tends to have much steadier (almost fake feeling) loc and gs needles than the ILS ones which tend to "float" a little

You certainly don't need glass.. but if you plan to do real cross country IMC flying having a capable GPS is critical, in my book. Do you really plan to be flying victor airways IMC changing radials and frequencies?!

So yes. It's 2020, if you want to be a competent IFR pilot you should have a GPS equipped plane, and be proficient in its use. Learn that 430, 650, whatever you have. When it's night time and you are going to your alternate because you didn't break out at mins, you're tight on gas, and stressed, having the 430 there to load approaches (even an ILS, for reference) will be a huge workload reducer
 
Tantalum said:
I'm not sure why you wouldn't want GPS.. more and more RNAV approaches are showing up, and you're more likely than not (in my experience) to be given an RNAV instead of something like an ILS or localizer. The RNAV signal also tends to have much steadier (almost fake feeling) loc and gs needles than the ILS ones which tend to "float" a little

You certainly don't need glass.. but if you plan to do real cross country IMC flying having a capable GPS is critical, in my book. Do you really plan to be flying victor airways IMC changing radials and frequencies?!

So yes. It's 2020, if you want to be a competent IFR pilot you should have a GPS equipped plane, and be proficient in its use. Learn that 430, 650, whatever you have. When it's night time and you are going to your alternate because you didn't break out at mins, you're tight on gas, and stressed, having the 430 there to load approaches (even an ILS, for reference) will be a huge workload reducer
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Agree 100%. It's not legally required, but practically it is. I suspect there are very, very few serious IFR pilots out there flying around without an IFR-approved GPS. Sure, pretty easy to just pop up and down through a layer with just VORs and an iPad, but if you're going to be out shooting real-world approaches, a GPS is basically required equipment at this point.

And, IMHO, you'd be foolish not to do your IFR training in an aircraft with an IFR GPS. It's 2020 - time to accept that VORs are on their way out and there's not a lot of practical point in clinging to them as a serious means of navigation.
 
Many DPEs are fairly uncomfortable with administering tests without GPS, simply because of the decreasing number of ground based approaches and the need to do a flight test relatively quickly.

Further, it is unquestionably easier to do a checkride with GPS and GPS is a more and more important part of the IFR system.
 
I doubt there is much extra cost involved in incorporating GPS training and what there is is probably less than proficiency training afterward.
 
Here is the thing: the current national airspace system is heavily GPS dependent, especially but not limited to approaches at non-metro airports. If you are actually going to use your IFR rating, you will likely use or need GPS. So why not train the way you fly?

I haven't flown an airway by VOR in 20 years, and I don't have a VOR or LOC/ILS approach at my home airport anymore. You should be able to be proficient with all the nav equipment in an airplane, but if GPS equipped you will use that 99% of the time. The other 1% might be LOC/ILS.
 
When I first started instrument training, WE DIDN'T HAVE GPS! I learned instrument flying just fine without it. We did a lot of VOR-A, arcs and NDB approaches back then. When I got back into instrument flying with Garmin 430s and 650s available, it felt like I was cheating it was so much easier. Yes you have to learn the buttonology of the device you are using, but the actual flying the approach and situational awareness the GPS gives you makes life easy. Before GPS and moving maps, you really had to keep keep up with your situational awareness and where you were on the map or approach plate.

Honestly my biggest hang up was learning to use the GPS to my advantage. I always felt like I was going to get caught cheating!
 
bradg33 said:
...It's 2020 - time to accept that VORs are on their way out and there's not a lot of practical point in clinging to them as a serious means of navigation.
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There is one practical point to maintaining VOR capability and proficiency: The military is still doing occasional GPS-interference testing in some areas of the country.
 
Interesting and valid thoughts in this thread. I may have to change my mind based upon these posts and just install a gps now before finishing up my IR. Not being sarcastic... I'm being serious. I guess I need to alert @Timbeck2 and let him know his sig is no longer valid. Dangit.
 
I personally wont fly IFR in true IMC without both GPS and ground based navigation. I know a lot of people fly in IMC with nothing but a GPS on board but for me I like knowing I have the ability to track a VOR and/or fly an ILS if something goes wrong with the GPS. Same thang for flying without GPS. I personally require both for IMC.
 
New hangar neighbor with SR22 G3...he told me he flies through magenta boxes. Now THATS “cheating”, lol!!

I’m still struggling with being check-ride ready with my 6 pack, needles, and my instructor’s dang yellow post-it-notes. I hate it when I see his arm coming across my scan...
 
midwestpa24 said:
When I first started instrument training, WE DIDN'T HAVE GPS! I learned instrument flying just fine without it. We did a lot of VOR-A, arcs and NDB approaches back then.
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Me, too, but that is not the reality today. No question, you must be proficient with the magic box turned off (and that will probably happen during any checkride or IPC) , but in today's airspace system you will need to work the GPS knobology and ATC. Might as well be prepared from the get-go. And everyone will have a GPS enabled EFB. If GPS crumps, IFR pilots will manage.

This reminds me of the "debates" over whether or not we should prohibit students in science classes from using calculators or graphing software. The gains from effectively using new technology far outweigh the potential losses of abandoning the old.

And yes, IFR GPS very much feels like "cheating" compared to the old way. But I ain't going back to flying scalloping VOR needles and no in-flight weather. Don't miss those days at all.
 
brien23 said:
Is it important that planes at flight schools have GPS in their panels for the IFR rating. Is not having this ok for IFR training, or should instruction AC have GPS. If you add GPS training it will take longer to get through. You can't just train just enough to do some monkey see monkey do approach you need to understand the GPS you use, if you have a state of the art GPS that will add time to understand. Time is money just how much do you want to pay for the IFR rating. GPS is great and I am not against it, the question is the extra cost of training.
Click to expand...

GPS will not make the training longer. Yes, it does take some time to learn, but you do that using a simulator. It is not a unique aeronautical skill that requires live experience a cockpit, such as for example, flying a tail wheel.
 
midwestpa24 said:
When I first started instrument training, WE DIDN'T HAVE GPS! I learned instrument flying just fine without it. We did a lot of VOR-A, arcs and NDB approaches back then. When I got back into instrument flying with Garmin 430s and 650s available, it felt like I was cheating it was so much easier. Yes you have to learn the buttonology of the device you are using, but the actual flying the approach and situational awareness the GPS gives you makes life easy. Before GPS and moving maps, you really had to keep keep up with your situational awareness and where you were on the map or approach plate.

Honestly my biggest hang up was learning to use the GPS to my advantage. I always felt like I was going to get caught cheating!
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Same here. Did mine with two VORs and DME. When I got back into it with GPS, it was like I vaulted into the 22nd century. But if I had to do it again I would have just gone ahead and learned on the 430.

So, don't go out of your way NOT to learn with GPS. Frankly, the situational awareness is amazing and I wouldn't go back to the old style. But if there a plane without GPS that you want to use, and a DPE who is willing to do the checkride, then go for it.
 
sarangan said:
GPS will not make the training longer. Yes, it does take some time to learn, but you do that using a simulator. It is not a unique aeronautical skill that requires live experience a cockpit, such as for example, flying a tail wheel.
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I'll argue that it will take a little longer but not much and it's worth it to be proficient in mashing box buttons as part of your flow. While I still routinely use a VOR (did it yesterday to get to holding over a VOR) the GPS makes life much easier and I assume you're getting an IFR rating to fly so might as well learn it the way you're going to fly it. My DPE was very practical about it. Yes, he turned it off for an approach but turned it back on for the next one as he values assessing how you use all the tools at your disposal (don't forget the VOR/GPS selector "you get to re-fly this check ride" button though).
 
AlphaMike said:
I know a lot of people fly in IMC with nothing but a GPS on board
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As all of the most popular GPS units have a integrated VOR/ILS receiver (Garmin 430/530/650/750, Avidyne 440/540/etc), I doubt there are really that many people flying in IMC with only GPS on board.
 
When I took my IR ride(s) 9 years ago I specifically made sure I used a plane in the club that did NOT have an ADF installed as I didn't what that to be fair game for the DPE. The plane I used did have (and still has) a Garmin 430W installed. I don't recall the DPE asking for a GPS approach, but as KTIW had non-precision and an ILS approach we didn't need the GPS approaches. I learned very quickly in my training when we used the club's Arrow for a lesson that DME was valuable (it didn't have one), so I didn't use it again for instrument training.

BTW, it's very important that you know how to use whatever is in the plane you take the ride in. And know where you are. I remember making the ILS 17 approach into KTIW when the 430W was telling me that I had to return to a waypoint that was behind us. I had already IDed the localizer and was established on the approach (needles centered), so I simply told the DPE that I had screwed us the button pushing somewhere along the line, but was established anyway. He told me to carry on, which I did. Know where you are and when the equipment is telling you to do something that doesn't make sense. You probably messed up a button push somewhere along the line. Go with what you know is right. Oh, and don't get too low on a non-precision approach. It's expensive.
 
brien23 said:
If it's in the plane for the IFR ride the DPE can ask you be able to use all the functions of the GPS installed failure to use one function is cause for failure.
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Failure to use a specific function is usually not an issue, unless that is a critical function. Usually the criteria is did the GPS provide you all the information you needed to perform the task. Identifying that waypoint with your Ipad instead of the official GPS could be a failure point.

That is one of the fun things about instructing and evaluating pilot is to see (and learn) all the creative ways they use the equipment they have. It is somewhat likely the examiner may know very little about your specific GPS. But it is pretty easy to tell if you know how to use it well enough to accomplish the ACS tasks.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
RussR said:
As all of the most popular GPS units have a integrated VOR/ILS receiver (Garmin 430/530/650/750, Avidyne 440/540/etc), I doubt there are really that many people flying in IMC with only GPS on board.
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6 months ago I would have agreed. But recently I've talked to several people here and on others (Facebook mostly) that are ripping out their NAV radios and installing GNX 375s, GNC355s and GPS175s. They believe that VORs are going away very soon and its a waste of money. I posted a few months ago, asking for advice on a new NAV/COM radio. I was surprised how many people said they don't even have a NAV radio anymore. I was pretty shocked how many people told me this.
 
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Yes, you absolutely need to train with GPS, preferably with WAAS. Most VORs are being phased out (see FAA MON program), and not having experience flying LNAV/LPV approaches will be an impediment. Easier to learn during your IFR training than to do it later.
 
Cervieres said:
Yes, you absolutely need to train with GPS, preferably with WAAS. Most VORs are being phased out (see FAA MON program), and not having experience flying LNAV/LPV approaches will be an impediment. Easier to learn during your IFR training than to do it later.
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LNAV/LPV approaches are not any different to fly. The hardest part is knowing how to setup your GPS for an approach, and knowing the different modes (Term, LNAV, LPV), and what that means to you flying the approach. That isn't hard to learn either.

I'm really shocked at the people that say forget VORS, they are old, etc., etc. GPS will likely never be a 100% replacement product, because it is too easily interfered with. Not to mention, a smart pilot will never put all of their eggs in one basket. Why do you think we were still keeping ADFs in airplanes into the 2000's. If my NAV radio failed, I at least had SOMETHING else to use. When flying real IFR, I always want a completely independent, secondary means of navigation. And no, I don't mean an iPad, which is also using that same GPS signal.
 
AlphaMike said:
6 months ago I would have agreed. But recently I've talked to several people here and on others (Facebook mostly) that are ripping out their NAV radios and installing GNX 375s, GNC355s and GPS175s. They believe that VORs are going away very soon and its a waste of money. I posted a few months ago, asking for advice on a new NAV/COM radio. I was surprised how many people said they don't even have a NAV radio anymore. I was pretty shocked how many people told me this.
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If you don't have a NAV radio, how do you fly an ILS approach?
 
donjohnston said:
If you don't have a NAV radio, how do you fly an ILS approach?
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Stay close enough to to the plane in front of you to see its taillights?
 
donjohnston said:
If you don't have a NAV radio, how do you fly an ILS approach?
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Why do you need to fly an ILS? A GPS approach with <300 HAT can be used in lieu of ILS for meeting precision approach training and currency requirements, and there is almost always an LPV approach anywhere there are ILS approaches. I haven't flown with reference to a VOR, except for practice and IPCs, for more than a decade. I've flown a bunch of ILSes but could have easily opted for the LPV to the same runway.

Bear in mind that your COM is a form of emergency backup navigation, too, if you are in radar coverage and can be vectored to VFR conditions.
 
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midwestpa24 said:
LNAV/LPV approaches are not any different to fly. The hardest part is knowing how to setup your GPS for an approach, and knowing the different modes (Term, LNAV, LPV), and what that means to you flying the approach. That isn't hard to learn either.

I'm really shocked at the people that say forget VORS, they are old, etc., etc. GPS will likely never be a 100% replacement product, because it is too easily interfered with. Not to mention, a smart pilot will never put all of their eggs in one basket. Why do you think we were still keeping ADFs in airplanes into the 2000's. If my NAV radio failed, I at least had SOMETHING else to use. When flying real IFR, I always want a completely independent, secondary means of navigation. And no, I don't mean an iPad, which is also using that same GPS signal.
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While I don't disagree with the spirit of what you are saying, the chances of a pilot finding himself in IMC with a jammed GPS signal while also out of ATC radio and radar is pretty slim in the lower 48. Regarding ADF, I have not seen one in the last decade nor flown one. Just for kicks I do fly NDB approaches on the sim, but that is purely for personal challenge, not for real utility.
 
The terminology and modes can be confusing, which is why you should learn during IFR training. No one said anything about forgetting VORs, but signal integrity below 5000’ will not be guaranteed under the new reduced system, so you may not be able to depend on reception. The number of VOR and localizer approaches will gradually decrease, and the destinations to which you can file under IFR as a primary or an alternate will be extremely limited without GPS.
 
sarangan said:
Just for kicks I do fly NDB approaches on the sim, but that is purely for personal challenge, not for real utility.
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And in real life in a light single, I have never flown an NDB approach in real life, except as practice for the rating and during IPCs, in 30+ years. And I had one right in my back yard, until the NDB died, NOTAMed out, and never to be repaired. A lot of stuff would have to fail (ILS, VOR, GPS) before you would ever fly the NDB approach. But the NDB was the most often out-of-service navaid at the airport, just ahead of the ILS.
 
chemgeek said:
Why do you need to fly an ILS? A GPS approach with <300 HAT can be used in lieu of ILS for meeting precision approach training and currency requirements, and there is almost always an LPV approach anywhere there are ILS approaches. I haven't flown with reference to a VOR, except for practice and IPCs, for more than a decade. I've flown a bunch of ILSes but could have easily opted for the LPV to the same runway.
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Key word: "Almost"
 
chemgeek said:
Bear in mind that your COM is a form of emergency backup navigation, too, if you are in radar coverage and can be vectored to VFR conditions.
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That would limit the utility of flying IFR quite a bit depending on the day. Your destination and/or alternate better have VFR conditions good enough to allow you to do a visual approach. Widespread IFR is a no go. While you can consider communications as your backup navigation, it doesn't get you an approach.
 
sarangan said:
While I don't disagree with the spirit of what you are saying, the chances of a pilot finding himself in IMC with a jammed GPS signal while also out of ATC radio and radar is pretty slim in the lower 48. Regarding ADF, I have not seen one in the last decade nor flown one. Just for kicks I do fly NDB approaches on the sim, but that is purely for personal challenge, not for real utility.
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Radio and radar don't get you an instrument approach. You are assuming VFR conditions are possible nearby.
 
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