GPS and Instrument training

[Cervieres]

I’ll go out on a limb and say all of the posters advocating for omitting GPS based navigation from IFR training and teaching LORAN-C and NDB approaches were born well before the Nixon administration. And probably carry a briefcase full of sectionals and plates because “the batteries never run out.” Sorry, but T-shaped approaches and magenta lines are the present and future.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Radio and radar don't get you an instrument approach.

Back in the good ol’ days you could get DF approaches to some airports that had Flight Service. All you needed was a com radio.

And probably carry a briefcase full of sectionals and plates because “the batteries never run out.”

I carry sectionals in case the weather’s too bad to go IFR.

 

[midwestpa24]

I’ll go out on a limb and say all of the posters advocating for omitting GPS based navigation from IFR training and teaching LORAN-C and NDB approaches were born well before the Nixon administration. And probably carry a briefcase full of sectionals and plates because “the batteries never run out.” Sorry, but T-shaped approaches and magenta lines are the present and future.

I'm not advocating omitting GPS, but several here have gone full tilt the other direction have implied no need to learn anything but GPS, that VOR and ILS are obsolete.

When I'm teaching, especially instrument students, I push the idea of always having an out, always have a Plan B. A lot of pilots have gotten into trouble because they don't have a Plan B. This causes them to continue down a course even when they know it won't work. If flying real IFR, I would never put all of my faith in one navigation source. Two different posters have made the comment that their Plan B was to get radar vectors to VFR conditions. All well and good, but what if VFR conditions don't exist within range.

 

[Cervieres]

I totally agree, but the question was whether or not an IFR student should train in an aircraft without GPS. I think it is safe to say that primary GPS based navigation is standard with VOR receivers providing backup and the ability to utilize an ILS. Spending the time and energy obtaining an IFR certification without being proficient in GPS based navigation makes no sense.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Forget any jamming or satellite outages, what if your GPS screen blacks out or goes on the fritz? Anyone want to suggest a separate NAVCOM2 and CDI/GS in IMC is overkill or silly belt+suspenders? <edit: straying from the OP topic, sorry>

 

[midwestpa24]

I totally agree, but the question was whether or not an IFR student should train in an aircraft without GPS. I think it is safe to say that primary GPS based navigation is standard with VOR receivers providing backup and the ability to utilize an ILS. Spending the time and energy obtaining an IFR certification without being proficient in GPS based navigation makes no sense.

As someone else said earlier, I wouldn't go out of my way to find a no gps plane for training, but I wouldn't rule one out either. If you can do it without, learning the GPS is easy and probably will only take a few transition flights to get the basics. The fundamentals of instrument flying don't vary. When you do learn GPS, it is a good idea to learn on the specific model you would plan to use in the real world if you have the option.

 

[chemgeek]

Key word: "Almost"

Exceptions are quite rare. I think there was another POA post somewhere dredging up some examples.

 

[sarangan]

Radio and radar don't get you an instrument approach. You are assuming VFR conditions are possible nearby.

ATC can tell you if descending to MVA will get you out of clouds. An old crusty instructor once taught me never to launch into IMC if you don't know where VFR is.

 

[chemgeek]

Forget any jamming or satellite outages, what if your GPS screen blacks out or goes on the fritz? Anyone want to suggest a separate NAVCOM2 and CDI/GS in IMC is overkill or silly belt+suspenders? <edit: straying from the OP topic, sorry>

This is a possibility, but in an emergency you've got how many other GPS units on board to cobble together something? I've got a tablet, a portable GPS, and a phone. All battery powered independent of the electric system. (I also have a 2nd nav, too, just because I already had it.) But I haven't had a total GPS-COM failure ever. In 20 years. If flying in really low weather with no VFR remotely accessible, a 2nd nav unit is probably desirable.

 

[midwestpa24]

ATC can tell you if descending to MVA will get you out of clouds. An old crusty instructor once taught me never to launch into IMC if you don't know where VFR is.

That's certainly a safe approach, and I won't argue against it's merits, but it does limit the usefulness of an instrument rating if you need VFR conditions. That being said, my own personal minimums for single engine IFR are for at least near MVFR conditions. If the engine quits and I have to let down through an overcast, I want room underneath the ceiling to be able to maneuver at least a little to avoid hitting a tree or building head on.

 

[sarangan]

That's certainly a safe approach, and I won't argue against it's merits, but it does limit the usefulness of an instrument rating if you need VFR conditions. That being said, my own personal minimums for single engine IFR are for at least near MVFR conditions. If the engine quits and I have to let down through an overcast, I want room underneath the ceiling to be able to maneuver at least a little to avoid hitting a tree or building head on.

I am not saying you need VFR, just that one needs to know _where_ VFR (or MVFR) is. Hopefully it not thousands of miles away.

 

[Salty]

At least we don't have to get a "GPS endorsement" for our instrument ratings.

 

[Palmpilot]

At least we don't have to get a "GPS endorsement" for our instrument ratings.

Shhh! Don't give them ideas!

 

[Ghery]

I worked for Tandem Computers from late 1983 to early 1995. Single points of failure are NOT a good thing. Backups are wise. Yes, GPS is great, but what if it, or the GPS box in your panel, goes TU? I like having a backup or two. And, yes, I am an old pilot and I carry the current paper for the area I'm flying in, both sectionals, TACs and low altitude enroute charts. Not only do the batteries not die (as pointed out in an earlier post) but they also cannot suffer from display hybrids quitting. Both of which have happened with my old HP-41CV calculator (yes, it is old, I bought it when I worked from Martin Marietta Denver Aerospace), which is why back when I needed it I had my Pickett N4-ES double log slide rule available (which I still know how to use, thank you). And, no, I don't use those old devices when flying.

 

[John Collins]

Here is the thing: the current national airspace system is heavily GPS dependent, especially but not limited to approaches at non-metro airports. If you are actually going to use your IFR rating, you will likely use or need GPS. So why not train the way you fly?

I haven't flown an airway by VOR in 20 years, and I don't have a VOR or LOC/ILS approach at my home airport anymore. You should be able to be proficient with all the nav equipment in an airplane, but if GPS equipped you will use that 99% of the time. The other 1% might be LOC/ILS.

I agree. I have not flown an ILS or VOR approach or used VOR for navigation since at least 2008 when I upgraded to a WAAS GPS. I still practice and teach both, but don't use them, they are simply a backup capability.