Golf clap for a not so bright line guy.

[Salty]

i understand where youre coming from with that position, and the cultural factors that make it prevalent among a certain socioeconomic gradient of american society. i just find it an oversimplification of the dynamics at play and thus fails to address the issue. we can agree to disagree of course.

The dynamic is he’s being paid to do a job he agreed to do and he broke something. No other dynamic matters. If he focused and did his job well he would be making more money quickly. Unless he has a thousand people like you willing to look past his screw ups. Then he has no reason do bother doing a good job.

 

[Zeldman]

I know what the clap is, but what is a golf clap..??

 

[overdrive148]

I just make a policy that I have to be present for fueling. The line guys thus far have all appreciated it because they're a little wary of its fueling techniques. Most of them have fueled one without an owner present and have gotten yelled at for doing something different than what the owner actually wanted.

So if I'm standing there and they do something wrong, it's nobody's fault but my own.

I'm surprised they could even hear you talking to them after taxiing in!

Not as potentially dangerous, but an eye-roller nonetheless ...

I had a pleasant visit at Lake Havasu City AZ a couple of months ago. I was not amused, however, when the FBO’s fuel truck driver reported to the guy at the desk that he had pumped 147 gallons of 100LL into my airplane. He was serious, and repeated that figure when questioned. The desk guy shrugged and started filling out the invoice accordingly. A discussion quickly ensued about decimal points and how when used properly they can be our friends. The fuel capacity of a Cessna 172 was also a topic of the conversation. I paid for my 14.7 gallons and got out of there.

One of the most stupid things I've seen personally:

We had two private jets on a section of the ramp. One stayed the previous night, one arrived in the morning. I showed up for 2nd shift, clocked in and went out to the ramp. We had overlap between the two shifts so there were a good handful of line techs on duty.

One of the duties of each shift is to use these things called FOD Razors to clean the ramp:

They hadn't done it yet so one of the LSTs was in the process of sweeping. Normally not a problem, but as is tradition both crews/pax show up simultaneously and get running. The jets are parked facing different directions due to a wind change overnight.

The guy drives the FOD razor truck between an aircraft and a marshaller who is being guided forwards out of parking, causing the jet to hit the brakes and stop to avoid collision. Then the guy drives the truck between the wingtips of the two aircraft, both with engines running, with a FOD device that occasionally pops up FOD, and then drives through the jet wash of the first aircraft as it is taxiing out. I was completely dumbfounded.

 

[Salty]

I'm surprised they could even hear you talking to them after taxiing in!





One of the most stupid things I've seen personally:

We had two private jets on a section of the ramp. One stayed the previous night, one arrived in the morning. I showed up for 2nd shift, clocked in and went out to the ramp. We had overlap between the two shifts so there were a good handful of line techs on duty.

One of the duties of each shift is to use these things called FOD Razors to clean the ramp:

They hadn't done it yet so one of the LSTs was in the process of sweeping. Normally not a problem, but as is tradition both crews/pax show up simultaneously and get running. The jets are parked facing different directions due to a wind change overnight.

The guy drives the FOD razor truck between an aircraft and a marshaller who is being guided forwards out of parking, causing the jet to hit the brakes and stop to avoid collision. Then the guy drives the truck between the wingtips of the two aircraft, both with engines running, with a FOD device that occasionally pops up FOD, and then drives through the jet wash of the first aircraft as it is taxiing out. I was completely dumbfounded.

He was supposed to spread the fod around the airport right?

 

[hindsight2020]

The dynamic is he’s being paid to do a job he agreed to do and he broke something. No other dynamic matters. If he focused and did his job well he would be making more money quickly. Unless he has a thousand people like you willing to look past his screw ups. Then he has no reason do bother doing a good job.

what do you suggest? wage garnishing the guy for the repair? firing him and STILL paying for his unemployment and welfare services?

i live in the world of what things are, not the world of what things should be. if the fbo doesnt want to continue to pay for peoples economic incentive to "throttle their effort" (thats not conjecture or what you wish wasnt so, thats point blank demonstrable fact here of how humans behave) then they have to invest in their workers.

thats all im saying, im not advocating for basic income here.

 

[EdFred]

I know what the clap is, but what is a golf clap..??

It's to indicate a job well done sarcastically.

 

[BigBadLou]

I know what the clap is, but what is a golf clap..??

Clap that is spread by golfers. Aka: rich people clap.

 

[Tom-D]

I have low tolerance for stupidity of that level.

Well then, you take care of your own aircraft, the rest of us make mistakes now and then.

This case is a good opportunity for a lesson for the guy who did this, not the time to run around screaming.

 

[cowman]

socioeconomics of the job imo." 5 dollars doesnt buy my undivided attention". thats not just a platitude; ive been the victim of that apathy, and nobody made me whole either wrt damage history impact on resale value, so i put my money where my mouth is when it comes to levying that social criticism of this [w-2 class] wage deflated country of ours.

things never did get better on the purchasing power front since the time you went to college im afraid. people often wonder why we've regressed when it comes to aspirational achievements like manned space exploration. occams razor: things suck down here on the socioeconomic front, thats why. nobody has time to be inspired by airplanes when social security is the retirement staple of 75 pct of the population. undetstand how wealth inequitable of a country that makes us in the aggregate when the bottom 75 pct of the country cannot attain a 75 pct replacement rate in retirement on the wages they earn, and keep up with life. and spare me the calls for austerity in american life, when we live in a country whose 70pct of GDP is consumption.

so nothing against the op, but honestly, damage like that is really a social tax for our collective apathy, if you re not afraid of speaking candidly about our social fabric.dont shoot the messenger. lampooning the guy as a one off idiot is a great missed lesson on whats at play here.

I wonder about these things myself. Would I try very hard for minimum wage? Well where I'm at in life I'd practically lose money at a minimum wage job so I'd never take one but if that wasn't the case would I try hard? Probably not. My values and upbringing would have me showing up on time and treating the customers as well as allowed but would I care at the end of the day? I don't think so.

OTOH while I've never run a business where I've had employees other than myself, I'd looked into it. From the other side of things you go to the trouble of starting a business so you make a good deal of money. It's a lot of work and a lot of risk so one expects to make something back from that rather than say just investing their money in something passive and just working a regular job. If your employees aren't able to generate much more than $7-8/hr worth of value to you then you're not going to pay that.... if you choose to open/continue the business at all. Sure, raise the prices but how many people are going to go to the FBO with $5/gal gas when there's another option nearby at $4/gal? Same goes for sandwiches, retail stores, and services. Most people are going to go for the less expensive place unless there's a significant and noticeable quality difference and if the minimum wage employee gets it right 9/10 times few people will go to the more expensive competitor.

Then you get into the whole question of what a person should be able to expect for even the most basic labor. That's a very subjective thing too, made harder by vastly different ideas about what a minimum standard of living is and vastly different costs of living in different regions. At some point if the people at the bottom are going to do better those of us at the top 20%... which is probably a lot of people in this community are going to have to do a little worse to pay for that. Is it those of us at the top who have unreasonable expectations or is it those of us at the bottom... or even all of us? It's a very difficult question that I find people tend to over-simplify with political ideology.

 

[Ted]

I'm surprised they could even hear you talking to them after taxiing in!

They know to put on their hearing protection when I come taxiing in.

Well then, you take care of your own aircraft, the rest of us make mistakes now and then.

This case is a good opportunity for a lesson for the guy who did this, not the time to run around screaming.

Tom, we all make mistakes. That's a really bad rookie move.

 

[MauleSkinner]

what do you suggest? wage garnishing the guy for the repair? firing him and STILL paying for his unemployment and welfare services?

Personal responsibility can simply mean owning up to the mistake and taking appropriate steps to resolve it. None of the things you brought up may be necessary.

In this case, the FBO determined that resolving it meant they would pay for it...I doubt that they're garnishing or firing the line guy over it, as long as he agrees that there's a problem that needs to be resolved. Some additional training on how to properly tie down airplanes, maybe a little more buddy time with an experienced line guy, end of event.

If the the company gets punitive, it develops a culture of trying to deny or hide mistakes that can cause damage, injury, or loss of life.

 

[midwestpa24]

I wonder about these things myself. Would I try very hard for minimum wage? Well where I'm at in life I'd practically lose money at a minimum wage job so I'd never take one but if that wasn't the case would I try hard? Probably not. My values and upbringing would have me showing up on time and treating the customers as well as allowed but would I care at the end of the day? I don't think so.

OTOH while I've never run a business where I've had employees other than myself, I'd looked into it. From the other side of things you go to the trouble of starting a business so you make a good deal of money. It's a lot of work and a lot of risk so one expects to make something back from that rather than say just investing their money in something passive and just working a regular job. If your employees aren't able to generate much more than $7-8/hr worth of value to you then you're not going to pay that.... if you choose to open/continue the business at all. Sure, raise the prices but how many people are going to go to the FBO with $5/gal gas when there's another option nearby at $4/gal? Same goes for sandwiches, retail stores, and services. Most people are going to go for the less expensive place unless there's a significant and noticeable quality difference and if the minimum wage employee gets it right 9/10 times few people will go to the more expensive competitor.

Then you get into the whole question of what a person should be able to expect for even the most basic labor. That's a very subjective thing too, made harder by vastly different ideas about what a minimum standard of living is and vastly different costs of living in different regions. At some point if the people at the bottom are going to do better those of us at the top 20%... which is probably a lot of people in this community are going to have to do a little worse to pay for that. Is it those of us at the top who have unreasonable expectations or is it those of us at the bottom... or even all of us? It's a very difficult question that I find people tend to over-simplify with political ideology.

I'm not sure about the rest of the country, but here in the upper midwest no one is making minimum wage. Unemployment is under 2% last I heard, and even the gas station across the street from the airport is struggling to fill positions while advertising starting wages of $11.60/hr, over $4 more than minimum wage. This is in a rural area, these are not big city wages.

The downside is we are seeing costs for basic services and goods going up to make up for these wages, and the rest of us in the pay scale have not seen nearly as much growth in our income.

 

[James_Dean]

I know what the clap is, but what is a golf clap..??

 

[timwinters]

Har!

 

[tawood]

When I fly into a new airport and plan to spend the night I specifically ask for a spot where the plane will be okay for the night and they won't need to move it. And then, after I tie it down, I tell them that they do not have permission to touch or move my airplane...

I do the same thing, and I add one more thing: I tell them that I've put the parking brakes on...and I do, too. My plane stays put.

 

[Lindberg]

It's to indicate a job well done sarcastically.

Done well or done sarcastically? Can it be both?

 

[FlySince9]

I thought it was +75, +150, +150 and so on alternating sides until fueled. How big was the fuel order

Don't remember, exactly, but it was enough to bring the wingtip down to about the height of your upper thigh.]

 

[Kenny Phillips]

socioeconomics of the job imo." 5 dollars doesnt buy my undivided attention". thats not just a platitude; ive been the victim of that apathy, and nobody made me whole either wrt damage history impact on resale value, so i put my money where my mouth is when it comes to levying that social criticism of this [w-2 class] wage deflated country of ours.

things never did get better on the purchasing power front since the time you went to college im afraid. people often wonder why we've regressed when it comes to aspirational achievements like manned space exploration. occams razor: things suck down here on the socioeconomic front, thats why. nobody has time to be inspired by airplanes when social security is the retirement staple of 75 pct of the population. undetstand how wealth inequitable of a country that makes us in the aggregate when the bottom 75 pct of the country cannot attain a 75 pct replacement rate in retirement on the wages they earn, and keep up with life. and spare me the calls for austerity in american life, when we live in a country whose 70pct of GDP is consumption.

so nothing against the op, but honestly, damage like that is really a social tax for our collective apathy, if you re not afraid of speaking candidly about our social fabric.dont shoot the messenger. lampooning the guy as a one off idiot is a great missed lesson on whats at play here.

Too bad there's not a "dislike" button. You seem to believe that paying someone more will get better results, where I [on the other side of the economic equation] know that is false, and if someone gives me better results, I will increase their pay.

 

[lowtimer]

The minimum wage employees in AZ will get a raise to $11hr next month.

How much more work should I expect out of them?

 

[wilkersk]

socioeconomics of the job imo." 5 dollars doesnt buy my undivided attention". thats not just a platitude; ive been the victim of that apathy, and nobody made me whole either wrt damage history impact on resale value, so i put my money where my mouth is when it comes to levying that social criticism of this [w-2 class] wage deflated country of ours.

things never did get better on the purchasing power front since the time you went to college im afraid. people often wonder why we've regressed when it comes to aspirational achievements like manned space exploration. occams razor: things suck down here on the socioeconomic front, thats why. nobody has time to be inspired by airplanes when social security is the retirement staple of 75 pct of the population. undetstand how wealth inequitable of a country that makes us in the aggregate when the bottom 75 pct of the country cannot attain a 75 pct replacement rate in retirement on the wages they earn, and keep up with life. and spare me the calls for austerity in american life, when we live in a country whose 70pct of GDP is consumption.

so nothing against the op, but honestly, damage like that is really a social tax for our collective apathy, if you re not afraid of speaking candidly about our social fabric.dont shoot the messenger. lampooning the guy as a one off idiot is a great missed lesson on whats at play here.

"Social tax for our collective apathy?"

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/

 

[Zeldman]

I watched a guy get on the tug to go pull his plane out. He was at wide open throttle going across the ramp and up to the hanger. At about 5 feet from the nose of the plane he discovered the brakes were not working and plowed into the nose of the twin Cessna.




Funny part was he was the chief pilot......

 

[DaleB]

I watched a guy get on the tug to go pull his plane out. He was at wide open throttle going across the ramp and up to the hanger. At about 5 feet from the nose of the plane he discovered the brakes were not working and plowed into the nose of the twin Cessna.




Funny part was he was the chief pilot......

Obviously he needs to be paid more so he’ll do a better job.

 

[Groundpounder]

Mu2's are also a pain but Ted beat me to it.

That was probably pilot induced. Had a Lear end up like that in a hangar once. Needed an 8 foot step ladder to get fuel into the tip tank on the high side.

 

[Bobanna]

socioeconomics of the job imo." 5 dollars doesnt buy my undivided attention". thats not just a platitude; ive been the victim of that apathy, and nobody made me whole either wrt damage history impact on resale value, so i put my money where my mouth is when it comes to levying that social criticism of this [w-2 class] wage deflated country of ours.

things never did get better on the purchasing power front since the time you went to college im afraid. people often wonder why we've regressed when it comes to aspirational achievements like manned space exploration. occams razor: things suck down here on the socioeconomic front, thats why. nobody has time to be inspired by airplanes when social security is the retirement staple of 75 pct of the population. undetstand how wealth inequitable of a country that makes us in the aggregate when the bottom 75 pct of the country cannot attain a 75 pct replacement rate in retirement on the wages they earn, and keep up with life. and spare me the calls for austerity in american life, when we live in a country whose 70pct of GDP is consumption.

so nothing against the op, but honestly, damage like that is really a social tax for our collective apathy, if you re not afraid of speaking candidly about our social fabric.dont shoot the messenger. lampooning the guy as a one off idiot is a great missed lesson on whats at play here.

Wow. I thought it might have happened because the lineman ate paint chips as a child, or maybe his mother dropped him.

 

[MetalCloud]

Wow. I thought it might have happened because the lineman ate paint chips as a child, or maybe his mother dropped him.

Or that he just doesn’t give a fack. Or he wasn’t taught properly. Or he decided not to pay attention during training because to him a salary is a right not something to be earned.

 

[woodchucker]

It’s not just about how much you pay your people, it’s also about how you treat your people.

 

[Sundancer]

I wonder about these things myself. Would I try very hard for minimum wage? Well where I'm at in life I'd practically lose money at a minimum wage job so I'd never take one but if that wasn't the case would I try hard? Probably not. My values and upbringing would have me showing up on time and treating the customers as well as allowed but would I care at the end of the day? I don't think so.

OTOH while I've never run a business where I've had employees other than myself, I'd looked into it. From the other side of things you go to the trouble of starting a business so you make a good deal of money. It's a lot of work and a lot of risk so one expects to make something back from that rather than say just investing their money in something passive and just working a regular job. If your employees aren't able to generate much more than $7-8/hr worth of value to you then you're not going to pay that.... if you choose to open/continue the business at all. Sure, raise the prices but how many people are going to go to the FBO with $5/gal gas when there's another option nearby at $4/gal? Same goes for sandwiches, retail stores, and services. Most people are going to go for the less expensive place unless there's a significant and noticeable quality difference and if the minimum wage employee gets it right 9/10 times few people will go to the more expensive competitor.

Then you get into the whole question of what a person should be able to expect for even the most basic labor. That's a very subjective thing too, made harder by vastly different ideas about what a minimum standard of living is and vastly different costs of living in different regions. At some point if the people at the bottom are going to do better those of us at the top 20%... which is probably a lot of people in this community are going to have to do a little worse to pay for that. Is it those of us at the top who have unreasonable expectations or is it those of us at the bottom... or even all of us? It's a very difficult question that I find people tend to over-simplify with political ideology.

Not many full time employees work for as little as the federal minimum wage, but low-ish wages are pretty common. I don't think we should expect a lot of bright-eyed initiative from lower paid workers, unless the situation and company can/do reward it. But following established process and some measure of care isn't too much to ask.

 

[PaulS]

Yep it's very important to pay a screw up employee more so they do better

 

[Bobanna]

You get what you pay for.

 

[Zeldman]

Yep it's very important to pay a screw up employee more so they do better

I could use the extra money.....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Too bad there's not a "dislike" button. You seem to believe that paying someone more will get better results, where I [on the other side of the economic equation] know that is false, and if someone gives me better results, I will increase their pay.

There are two sides to both sides.

On the employer side, there are people who will pay more when they notice increased output, and there are those who will happily just pocket the difference in profits, or give a meaningless award or something to try to make the productive employee feel good.

On the employee side, there are those who are only as good as they are, and won't get better for better pay. There are also plenty who WILL do better if you pay them better. In fact, with the number of people working multiple jobs these days, if paying them better allowed them to quit their other job and get some extra sleep on a daily basis, they might not even have to consciously work faster for you to get better productivity out of them.

In either case, people will go where the money is. Every employer should be paying their employees enough that the employee isn't tempted to leave for greener pastures, and the employer doesn't have to incur the costs of finding another person and training them to fill that role.

 

[flyingron]

Landmark bent my nose scissor (almost certainly tugged it and turned it over center). Of course, with the ownership in place they denied doing it (a stark contrast from the original Hawthorne guys who would not have bent it and if they had would have owned up to it).

 

[PaulS]

There are two sides to both sides.

snip

There are also plenty who WILL do better if you pay them better. In fact, with the number of people working multiple jobs these days, if paying them better allowed them to quit their other job and get some extra sleep on a daily basis, they might not even have to consciously work faster for you to get better productivity out of them.

snip

I can deal with people who work to the best of their ability but may not be the brightest bulb in the circuit and will reward that as long as they are capable and doing the job. I have no use for people who accept a job at a salary, then work at half speed because they don't feel they are being paid enough. They are generally entitled pinheads and always feel underpaid and therefore underperform regularly. They are like a parasite in that they suck life out of other employees and need to be excised as soon possible. That said it's usually pretty obvious when over performers are underpaid, you need to fix that quickly or they just quietly move on. Knowing this is part of being a good manager.

 

[Ted]

In either case, people will go where the money is. Every employer should be paying their employees enough that the employee isn't tempted to leave for greener pastures, and the employer doesn't have to incur the costs of finding another person and training them to fill that role.

It's also worth noting that pay includes more than just your base salary, it also has to do with the "total compensation package" of benefits. Work environment matters, too. I left my last job mostly because of work environment and because I saw HR working towards making things worse for the employees. Coming here from my last employer ended up being essentially flat on base salary, but significantly better once the much improved 401k, ESPP, etc. came into account.

 

[DesertNomad]

It's also worth noting that pay includes more than just your base salary, it also has to do with the "total compensation package" of benefits. Work environment matters, too. I left my last job mostly because of work environment and because I saw HR working towards making things worse for the employees. Coming here from my last employer ended up being essentially flat on base salary, but significantly better once the much improved 401k, ESPP, etc. came into account.

I've been self employed for 16 years but before that had jobs in advertising and IT... none of which had a "total compensation package" that was anything other than base pay. No health insurance, no 401k, etc. I think most people that are near the bottom of the income scale don't get much of anything beyond an hourly wage.

 

[Ted]

I've been self employed for 16 years but before that had jobs in advertising and IT... none of which had a "total compensation package" that was anything other than base pay. No health insurance, no 401k, etc. I think most people that are near the bottom of the income scale don't get much of anything beyond an hourly wage.

It normally is something you only see at larger companies, but the point is it's worth considering if you're in a job where some companies offer something and some don't. A lot of people just look at base salary and that's it when comparing job offers/companies to look at. There's more to it than that.

I agree that if you're at the bottom of the scale there's usually not much you'll get beyond base pay. Contracting/self employed, obviously you're not likely to get anything else, either. That's part of what I like about working at a large company. I've also worked at smaller companies and liked that, too, but for different reasons and there are plusses and minuses.