Getting the shaft, need help wrapping up PPL

Jamie Kirk said:
Would love to know what that is but since no one will return my call I can’t fix it.

Nope, all endorsements are in the DA40
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Have you called the Diamond distributor and found every DA40 instructor in the country that can help you?

If you’re switching DPEs, you might as well expect to do the whole ride all over again, so the 2 weeks for your current endorsement are pretty moot unless you go with option 1 below.

At this point, you’ve got a few options:
1. Make amends with your current operation and DPE.
2. Transition to a different airframe, school, CFI, DPE.
3. Stick with the DA40 and go where it’s available.
4. Find a Commander CFI and bring him to you or go to him.

#2/4 are two edges of the same knife.

In your shoes, I’d do #4. At this point all costs are sunk costs.
 
What would have been cheaper would have been get somebody with 112 time to fly around with a CFI for 10 hours in your plane and then the CFI would have been able to instruct you.
 
I’m not a huge EdFred fan (no secret), but he has offered you a very generous deal. Very nice of him.
I would take it and run...
 
EdFred said:
What would have been cheaper would have been get somebody with 112 time to fly around with a CFI for 10 hours in your plane and then the CFI would have been able to instruct you.
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Spoke to a CFI today that straight up said were only dealing with an insurance issue, not a flying problem. Sign a waiver eliminating him of liability and make sure you don’t crash your plane.

I’ve been told more times today that they will spend more time flying my plane to get insurance approval than I’ll need to fly to get signed off for a checkride.
 
I mean from the beginning though. 0 DA40 time and never going to that school.
 
Sorry for interrupting this important and tense conversation, and I'm sorry for your difficult experience,
since I'm currently through with 3 quarter's of my ppl training, but need to switch CFI and school for finish up, i have a question: many members suggested joining a flying club and taking a cfi to finish up, wouldn't that have student insurance and requirement issues in terms of aircraft coverage for training? Would any flying club allow you to train in their aircraft?
Maybe i should just fly to EdFref and do an Accelerated finish up with him (for pay) on my ppl?:)
 
PPL747 said:
Sorry for interrupting this important and tense conversation, and I'm sorry for your difficult experience,
since I'm currently through with 3 quarter's of my ppl training, but need to switch CFI and school for finish up, i have a question: many members suggested joining a flying club and taking a cfi to finish up, wouldn't that have student insurance and requirement issues in terms of aircraft coverage for training? Would any flying club allow you to train in their aircraft?
Maybe i should just fly to EdFref and do an Accelerated finish up with him (for pay) on my ppl?:)
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The flying club/flight school I belonged to before I purchased rented 172s/Cherokee 160s for about $120 wet and included insurance. It would normally take 2-3 hours or so to get checked out with an instructor ($50hr instructor).
 
Can you give us a de-brief of how your partial checkride completion went? What questions were asked and how you were meshing with the DPE?

I'm curious as to how the DPE could have messed up in IACRA. When I watched my DPE finish up my PPL and signoff he literally checked a couple boxes and put in the time we were in the plane, there wasn't much that could be jacked up. I feel there was something else going on in your oral or something that would have led to this.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
I have an endorsement to take the checkride, my school informed me that the endorsement was only good for their DPE.
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This is a load of BS. Based on the screw ups that were made by the original DPE, you need to contact the FSDO asap. You aren't alone in this and they are obviously doing something unethical, if what you claim is true.

If you've got experience in a DA40 w/ G1000, contact Camarillo Flight Instruction. They've got a couple DA40's and their chief instructor Michael is a cool guy and a solid instructor. I'm sure he can get you signed off and with a local DPE within a very short time.
 
jaxcessnadriver said:
Can you give us a de-brief of how your partial checkride completion went? What questions were asked and how you were meshing with the DPE?

I'm curious as to how the DPE could have messed up in IACRA. When I watched my DPE finish up my PPL and signoff he literally checked a couple boxes and put in the time we were in the plane, there wasn't much that could be jacked up. I feel there was something else going on in your oral or something that would have led to this.
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Questions were normal and the conversation was always pleasant.

When he filled out the discontinuance there is a portion where you mark items completed successfully. He checked every single item. This is what caused the issue with the FSDO when other DPEs looked at it.
 
PaulS said:
Time to put the phone down, drive to the school and ask them WTF is going on. Face to face, man to man.
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They are absolutely ignoring me, confronting them in person is not going to help the situation. The owners are Asian and in my experience with that culture is walking in there and confronting them isn't going to benefit me in any way.
 
Here is what my discontinuance says that I was given and printed out on the actual date of my checkride which is wrong:
First.jpg

Here is what it was changed to on March 8th after I called other DPEs to finish up:
Second.jpg

Here is a note in IACRA about the changes:
ERROR.jpg
 
At this point find a place to rent a Diamond DA40 who cares if it does or doesn't have glass. find a DPE and let them know you had started and have a discontinuance and chances are you'll need to just do the entire process with them again as they'll probably want to ask you some oral questions. I find it hard to believe there isn't another DA40 in your area you can't rent for a few hours to get this finished up.
 
jaxcessnadriver said:
At this point find a place to rent a Diamond DA40 who cares if it does or doesn't have glass. find a DPE and let them know you had started and have a discontinuance and chances are you'll need to just do the entire process with them again as they'll probably want to ask you some oral questions. I find it hard to believe there isn't another DA40 in your area you can't rent for a few hours to get this finished up.
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The issue is greater than that and if it was as simple as just going down the street and completing it somewhere else.

My solo endorsement expires in a few days
A school will not allow me to just rent their DA-40, they require me to show proficiency which is completely understanding
My endorsement for a checkride will expire before I will get a checkride, this will require me to spend a minimum of 3 hours to get signed off again
I have already paid $800 for a checkride that ended in a discontinuance. I should not have to pay another $800 to complete it
Wait time for a DPE in my area seems to be 6-8 weeks. I would assume I would need to fly at least once a week to stay fresh

So add up the cost:
$800 for new check ride
3 hours to get signed off at $188 an hour for the plane and $77 an hour for the CFI. $795
1 hour a week for 8 weeks to stay fresh at $188 hour $1,504

So it is going to cost me roughly another $3,000 because the DPE and school screwed up? Plus now I need to drive to Camarillo or Santa Ana? 1-2 hours each way without traffic?

I know I have options, there are always options. But my entire point was I am getting hosed. That puts my PPL cost at almost $20,000

Yea yea, high maintenance as TCABM would call me.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
The issue is greater than that and if it was as simple as just going down the street and completing it somewhere else.

My solo endorsement expires in a few days
A school will not allow me to just rent their DA-40, they require me to show proficiency which is completely understanding
My endorsement for a checkride will expire before I will get a checkride, this will require me to spend a minimum of 3 hours to get signed off again
I have already paid $800 for a checkride that ended in a discontinuance. I should not have to pay another $800 to complete it
Wait time for a DPE in my area seems to be 6-8 weeks. I would assume I would need to fly at least once a week to stay fresh

So add up the cost:
$800 for new check ride
3 hours to get signed off at $188 an hour for the plane and $77 an hour for the CFI. $795
1 hour a week for 8 weeks to stay fresh at $188 hour $1,504

So it is going to cost me roughly another $3,000 because the DPE and school screwed up? Plus now I need to drive to Camarillo or Santa Ana? 1-2 hours each way without traffic?

I know I have options, there are always options. But my entire point was I am getting hosed. That puts my PPL cost at almost $20,000

Yea yea, high maintenance as TCABM would call me.
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it doesn't look like you have much of a choice other than spending that 3k. you do have a choice, a very long winded one, get attorneys involved, most likely will not do you any good and cost you a fortune. so if you are serious about getting PPL, take a easier route and spend that 3k and get it over with. once you have your license, you never have to worry about the flight school or the DPE (until you want anther rating). chalk it to an expensive lesson, we have all had one or two (or in my case … a whole bunch)
 
WannFly said:
it doesn't look like you have much of a choice other than spending that 3k. you do have a choice, a very long winded one, get attorneys involved, most likely will not do you any good and cost you a fortune. so if you are serious about getting PPL, take a easier route and spend that 3k and get it over with. once you have your license, you never have to worry about the flight school or the DPE (until you want anther rating). chalk it to an expensive lesson, we have all had one or two (or in my case … a whole bunch)
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100% agree, but irritating. I am going to finish, no questions about it and I have a CFI flying to me Wednesday to spend days getting ready. At this point my post is just a rant out of frustration.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
100% agree, but irritating. I am going to finish, no questions about it and I have a CFI flying to me Wednesday to spend days getting ready. At this point my post is just a rant out of frustration.
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you got it. lets focus on the check ride... save your frustration for MX stuff on your airplane …. :p
 
Jamie Kirk said:
They are absolutely ignoring me, confronting them in person is not going to help the situation. The owners are Asian and in my experience with that culture is walking in there and confronting them isn't going to benefit me in any way.
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Sounds like you are making both sides of the argument yourself and kicking your own ass. Tough to get anywhere when you do that. Confront them in person, then out them if they don't work to resolve this, all of them. It's well within your rights to do so and you will help others avoid them. Your side of the story seems reasonable if you've covered all of it, but there are usually two sides to every story.
 
Is $800 what checkirdes in CA run? I think I paid about $300 for mine.
 
As I said earlier they can’t win. Unless they think you’ll let them get away with it, which it looks like is the case.
 
PaulS said:
Sounds like you are making both sides of the argument yourself and kicking your own ass. Tough to get anywhere when you do that. Confront them in person, then out them if they don't work to resolve this, all of them. It's well within your rights to do so and you will help others avoid them. Your side of the story seems reasonable if you've covered all of it, but there are usually two sides to every story.
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I've wrote a letter and will have it emailed and hand delivered. This gives them time to read it, absorb my side and take their time to answer and provide any and all information they wish to. Walking in and confronting them is going to force them to be defensive and will not be productive.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
I've wrote a letter and will have it emailed and hand delivered. This gives them time to read it, absorb my side and take their time to answer and provide any and all information they wish to. Walking in and confronting them is going to force them to be defensive and will not be productive.
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Emails and phone calls lead to the results you are dealing with, much harder to say no to someone in person, especially if that someone is right. Real easy to blow someone off remotely. You need to man up and talk to them, if after that they won't help you, you need to publish who they are, then you need to do negative reviews. No one should go through what you have been going through. But you can't be a door mat.
 
PaulS said:
Emails and phone calls lead to the results you are dealing with, much harder to say no to someone in person, especially if that someone is right. Real easy to blow someone off remotely. You need to man up and talk to them, if after that they won't help you, you need to publish who they are, then you need to do negative reviews. No one should go through what you have been going through. But you can't be a door mat.
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You are forgetting that I was at the school when they told me this. They were harsh then, offered no help and told me to go away. You think me walking back in is going to make them act professional?
 
Jamie Kirk said:
I've wrote a letter and will have it emailed and hand delivered. This gives them time to read it, absorb my side and take their time to answer and provide any and all information they wish to. Walking in and confronting them is going to force them to be defensive and will not be productive.
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And take a witness along.
 
Salty said:
As I said earlier they can’t win. Unless they think you’ll let them get away with it, which it looks like is the case.
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One thing about me is I am a very nice guy and will bend over backwards for people. But I am a horrible enemy. I have been in the legal profession for 13 years, I don't let people screw me.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
You are forgetting that I was at the school when they told me this. They were harsh then, offered no help and told me to go away. You think me walking back in is going to make them act professional?
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I think it will prevent them from saying they "weren't aware there was a problem, we never saw Jamie Kirk again." Who cares if they were harsh, you paid them $20,000 and didn't get what you were paying for. Once again, you are fighting this fight in your head, doing their work for them, defeating yourself.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
One thing about me is I am a very nice guy and will bend over backwards for people. But I am a horrible enemy. I have been in the legal profession for 13 years, I don't let people screw me.
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This is a really awful story and sorry to hear about it. I bailed early on a problematic school/bought my own plane, so avoided a saga quite this painful.

Is it correct that the solution is set up now? That is the important thing. If you are coming to Phoenix, let us know as there are a number of PoA people here and it would be fun to get together. Will also help if you want and are doing the training here.

If in the legal profession, why not finish the PP then start the gradual process of taking them to court if needed. What would the claims be? As you know, the well reasoned letter is a good start on that process. If there are some plausible claims, then hit them with an order to preserve evidence after the PP is done.
 
PaulS said:
I think it will prevent them from saying they "weren't aware there was a problem, we never saw Jamie Kirk again." Who cares if they were harsh, you paid them $20,000 and didn't get what you were paying for. Once again, you are fighting this fight in your head, doing their work for them, defeating yourself.
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The school does a lot through text, I have also texted them notifying them that I need a call back regarding the issue at hand. I saved the text, email and call records. I left a long voicemail for the sole reason to show that I left a message due to call time. I have since called a few times just to document my attempts.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
The school does a lot through text, I have also texted them notifying them that I need a call back regarding the issue at hand. I saved the text, email and call records. I left a long voicemail for the sole reason to show that I left a message due to call time. I have since called a few times just to document my attempts.
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Ok Jamie, I've made my point, I hope you succeed in getting your PPL, keep us updated.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
This is a really awful story and sorry to hear about it. I bailed early on a problematic school/bought my own plane, so avoided a saga quite this painful.

Is it correct that the solution is set up now? That is the important thing. If you are coming to Phoenix, let us know as there are a number of PoA people here and it would be fun to get together. Will also help if you want and are doing the training here.

If in the legal profession, why not finish the PP then start the gradual process of taking them to court if needed. What would the claims be? As you know, the well reasoned letter is a good start on that process. If there are some plausible claims, then hit them with an order to preserve evidence after the PP is done.
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Looks like I found a CFI that can help, he is coming to me on Wednesday and we are going to use my plane. The offer by some POA members was above and beyond what anyone should expect, really great group of people.

My plan is to finish my PPL before shaking the boat anymore. The issue is this can turn intoa much larger issue for the school and others. CFIs as independent contractors? Won't pass the sniff test with the CA DOL. Checkride costing more than the local average? Does the CFI or school get a portion of it? IF so what are the FAA regulations on that? Was all checkride income claimed? Records will show how many students went for a checkride and to what DPE. First subpoena of records would be so overwhelming and being a corporation they would need to hire an attorney to represent them. The school is under a fictitious business name and no licenses but payments were all made to a CA Corporation. Would list both in the complaint.
 
PaulS said:
Ok Jamie, I've made my point, I hope you succeed in getting your PPL, keep us updated.
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I do appreciate your input and please do not think I just ignored it. Thanks for the comments.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
The issue is this can turn intoa much larger issue for the school and others.
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If there is something crooked going on there, it would definitely be a service to the community to let a little sunshine in. Completely agree that just finish your own certificate first. Should be more fun in your own plane. Once you are endorsed for solo in it, you can then just fly when you want without worrying about scheduling at the FBO (of course, you then have to wait for your own plane's MX ;-)

CFIs as independent contractors? Won't pass the sniff test with the CA DOL.
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Yes, depends a lot on whether the CFIs are working at the direction of the school on their property. That usually won't fly for an independent contractor arrangement.

Checkride costing more than the local average? Does the CFI or school get a portion of it? IF so what are the FAA regulations on that?
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Sounds like could be a fraud claim. One would have to wonder about the objectivity of the examination.

First subpoena of records would be so overwhelming and being a corporation they would need to hire an attorney to represent them.
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Just the demand for preservation of evidence should give them a bit of work and probably need to go to an attorney.

I wonder if you can get a substantial portion of your fees refunded with the properly written and well reasoned letter.
 
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PaulS said:
you paid them $20,000 and didn't get what you were paying for.
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Now hang on... To our knowledge, this wasn't some kind of "$XX upfront and you are guaranteed a PPL" agreement with the school. He paid to rent a plane and to hire an instructor. As far as we know, he has received 20K worth of rental of an airplane and dual instruction. The hours are in his logbook, the dual time is in his logbook, and the logbook is his and *has value*, no matter how frustrating all this may seem to him right now. We can argue about whether the dual instruction was of quality, but he could've stopped paying for the services anytime, and I don't see any breach of contract here.

Jamie, I would not advocate going back to the school to confront them. They've decided they don't want you as a customer anymore, and that's that. You cannot force them to rent you their DA40 if they don't want to. It's their plane, you don't have a "right" to access to it. (Again, unless there's something in your contract with them, which I can't imagine there is, or you would've brought that up already.) Busting out "I'm a legal expert and you wouldn't want me as an enemy" rhetoric and threatening audits is a sure-fire way to get turned down by schools/CFI's/DPE's present and future.

Checkride fees vary, and yes, $800 for a checkride is conceivable ($700-800 is the going rate where I am).
No, the CFI/school does not get a cut of checkride fees. <-- if you have evidence of this happening, bring it to the FSDO.
Not all CFI's teach flying full-time.
 
kath said:
Now hang on... To our knowledge, this wasn't some kind of "$XX upfront and you are guaranteed a PPL" agreement with the school. He paid to rent a plane and to hire an instructor. As far as we know, he has received 20K worth of rental of an airplane and dual instruction. The hours are in his logbook, the dual time is in his logbook, and the logbook is his and *has value*, no matter how frustrating all this may seem to him right now. We can argue about whether the dual instruction was of quality, but he could've stopped paying for the services anytime, and I don't see any breach of contract here.

Jamie, I would not advocate going back to the school to confront them. They've decided they don't want you as a customer anymore, and that's that. You cannot force them to rent you their DA40 if they don't want to. It's their plane, you don't have a "right" to access to it. (Again, unless there's something in your contract with them, which I can't imagine there is, or you would've brought that up already.) Busting out "I'm a legal expert and you wouldn't want me as an enemy" rhetoric and threatening audits is a sure-fire way to get turned down by schools/CFI's/DPE's present and future.

Checkride fees vary, and yes, $800 for a checkride is conceivable ($700-800 is the going rate where I am).
No, the CFI/school does not get a cut of checkride fees. <-- if you have evidence of this happening, bring it to the FSDO.
Not all CFI's teach flying full-time.
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I know. Just venting frustrations now :)
 
Jamie Kirk said:
The issue is greater than that and if it was as simple as just going down the street and completing it somewhere else.

My solo endorsement expires in a few days
A school will not allow me to just rent their DA-40, they require me to show proficiency which is completely understanding
My endorsement for a checkride will expire before I will get a checkride, this will require me to spend a minimum of 3 hours to get signed off again
I have already paid $800 for a checkride that ended in a discontinuance. I should not have to pay another $800 to complete it
Wait time for a DPE in my area seems to be 6-8 weeks. I would assume I would need to fly at least once a week to stay fresh

So add up the cost:
$800 for new check ride
3 hours to get signed off at $188 an hour for the plane and $77 an hour for the CFI. $795
1 hour a week for 8 weeks to stay fresh at $188 hour $1,504

So it is going to cost me roughly another $3,000 because the DPE and school screwed up? Plus now I need to drive to Camarillo or Santa Ana? 1-2 hours each way without traffic?

I know I have options, there are always options. But my entire point was I am getting hosed. That puts my PPL cost at almost $20,000

Yea yea, high maintenance as TCABM would call me.
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That seems a bit extreme. Call up Camarillo Flight Instruction at KCMA. Get ahold of their chief CFI, Michael. Go up and have him evaluate you based on the ACS. If you're good to go, schedule the checkride with a local DPE, immediately. You'll need another couple of hours to satisfy the checkride prep requirements which would be combined with a checkout in the DA40 and any other loose ends. I doubt you'll need to fly once a week to maintain proficiency, at this point in time. Just pound out a few more hours the week or two before the ride. This probably won't cost you much more than $1200.
 
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