Getting the shaft, need help wrapping up PPL

Something stinks here. I feel like there is missing info. There are CFI's all over "SoCal". you can't find anybody? I can make a recommendation or 2. At this point are you really needing 3 hours a week to remain proficient?
 
Jared V said:
Something stinks here. I feel like there is missing info. There are CFI's all over "SoCal". you can't find anybody? I can make a recommendation or 2. At this point are you really needing 3 hours a week to remain proficient?
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Plenty of CFIs, never once did I say I cannot find one. I said I cannot find one who is familiar and has time in my type to get signed off by insurance.
 
Tell ya what, I gotta give a buddy a flight review in a 112 here shortly. He's always looking to go flying. I'll ride along for 10 hours or so, giving him "instruction" as we go get some burgers and shi---stuff. I'll get 10 hours logged under my belt under 61.51(3) and if you still haven't get your private by the time my weekends are freed up, I'll do 3 nights on a couch and we'll get ya signed off to use any DPE you want in SoCal.
 
EdFred said:
Tell ya what, I gotta give a buddy a flight review in a 112 here shortly. He's always looking to go flying. I'll ride along for 10 hours or so, giving him "instruction" as we go get some burgers and shi---stuff. I'll get 10 hours logged under my belt under 61.51(3) and if you still haven't get your private by the time my weekends are freed up, I'll do 3 nights on a couch and we'll get ya signed off to use any DPE you want in SoCal.
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You're the man. Let me know but I still won't let you do it for free.
 
I was talking about finding a CFI that could endorse you to take a check ride.
 
I have an endorsement to take the checkride, my school informed me that the endorsement was only good for their DPE.

I am all endorsed, I just now can;t use the plane from the school which 90% of my training is in.
 
Be careful with making assumptions about "who got mad at who and is retaliating at whom for what", in this situation. Unless you were present for the phone calls between the DPE and the FSDO, or the school and the DPE, you are making some pretty accusatory guesses. And if you actually *fired* those accusations *at* the people involved (the school, or either DPE), as you have described them to us here on this board ("cowardly", "milking", etc.), then that may have been a contributing factor to their not wanting to deal with you anymore. We are only hearing your side of the story.

The IACRA got filled out wrong, but it sounds as though you're saying the DPE who made the mistake went on there and *fixed it*. So now IACRA and your original records don't match. But that's what you'd expect it to look like, if the DPE fixed it from his end like he should. Right? So I'm confused, where's the wrongdoing there?

I'd say talk to the FSDO, but do *not* bring up any of this "who is being reprimanded for what" speculation, or cast blame around. Go in with an attitude of "I'm trying to get clarification, and bring this problem to a reasonable solution." See what they say. Request an updated discontinuance letter for your records and to show to the next DPE.

P.S. the thing you're describing is called a "discontinuance". Even though it means that the checkride is supposed to "continue" later. I know, it's a perplexing name... But you'll get more FSDO cred if you use the proper name.

Edit: if the school said your endorsement "is only good for the school's DPE's", then this is just not true. That's not how endorsements work.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
There isn't, I have calls into the FSDO with these questions.

My assumptions (THESE ARE ASSUMPTIONS!)
I upset the DPE because his error was brought to light with the FSDO
DPE devotes himself to the school for all their checkrides
DPE then lights up the school and says he will not finish my checkride
School is a coward and is afraid to lose their DPE and finds it easier to just take his side and tells me to go away
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That DPE can lose his DPE ticket quite easily, and he may be giving reason to do so.
 
kath said:
Be careful with making assumptions about "who got mad at who and is retaliating at whom for what", in this situation. Unless you were present for the phone calls between the DPE and the FSDO, or the school and the DPE, you are making some pretty accusatory guesses. And if you actually *fired* those accusations *at* the people involved (the school, or either DPE), as you have described them to us here on this board ("cowardly", "milking", etc.), then that may have been a contributing factor to their not wanting to deal with you anymore. We are only hearing your side of the story.

The IACRA got filled out wrong, but it sounds as though you're saying the DPE who made the mistake went on there and *fixed it*. So now IACRA and your original records don't match. But that's what you'd expect it to look like, if the DPE fixed it from his end like he should. Right? So I'm confused, where's the wrongdoing there?

I'd say talk to the FSDO, but do *not* bring up any of this "who is being reprimanded for what" speculation, or cast blame around. Go in with an attitude of "I'm trying to get clarification, and bring this problem to a reasonable solution." See what they say. Request an updated discontinuance letter for your records and to show to the next DPE.

P.S. the thing you're describing is called a "discontinuance". Even though it means that the checkride is supposed to "continue" later. I know, it's a perplexing name... But you'll get more FSDO cred if you use the proper name.

Edit: if the school said your endorsement "is only good for the school's DPE's", then this is just not true. That's not how endorsements work.
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That is the issue, I wasn't present for anything. No one even called me and asked questions or acted professionally. I was scheduled to finish the checkride today so yesterday I received a text to come to their airport and when I showed up this was just thrown at me. There was no accusations by my part, it was them basically reprimanding me for looking elsewhere. And of course my checkride today didn't happened as planned. Then after I left I tried to call CFI and then the DPE to get clarification on somethings, no answer and no calls back. I left a message.

I don't care about the IACRA paperwork, it could be blank or non existent. The only reason it matters is that the DPE filled it out wrong which was brought to the FSDO attention. Not by me either. No one bothered to call me or ask me anything regarding this fiasco. The school told me the DPE was upset because his error in paperwork was brought to the attention of the FSDO. That was their words, not mine.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
That DPE can lose his DPE ticket quite easily, and he may be giving reason to do so.
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I don't want to cause anyone to lose their ticket, get written up or anything. I want to finish my checkride, punch my ticket and move on with instrument training.

But the school will not let me.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Works perfectly, that option has never been offered. Every CFI I have spoken too wanted to be added to my policy before instruction could begin.
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Half the instructors I know insist on the same - they want to be named on the policy. The other half don't care. I'm not surprised that the CFIs he's dealing with want to be on the policy - the Commander is not exactly a C172.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
I don't want to cause anyone to lose their ticket, get written up or anything. I want to finish my checkride, punch my ticket and move on with instrument training.

But the school will not let me.
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Dude. Take a deep breath. You own a commander. Reach out to the type club, see if there’s a CFI there.
 
TCABM said:
Dude. Take a deep breath. You own a commander. Reach out to the type club, see if there’s a CFI there.
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Done it plenty, no one local can help. Been trying that since the day she came home. There is a reason I put up with all the BS from this school when I had a wonderful plane sitting in the hangar.
 
Something smells here. No way they’d put themselves in this position. There’s another side to this. They can’t win by doing what is described.
 
Salty said:
Something smells here. No way they’d put themselves in this position. There’s another side to this. They can’t win by doing what is described.
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Maybe I am not understanding what position they are in?
 
Jamie Kirk said:
Maybe I am not understanding what position they are in?
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If they've acted as you have described, it's possible that their 141 status and even the DPE's status could come under review. So basically you need to examine exactly what you did.
 
Here is what my IACRA application says online now
 

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Kenny Phillips said:
If they've acted as you have described, it's possible that their 141 status and even the DPE's status could come under review. So basically you need to examine exactly what you did.
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I do not think they operate under 141, its a club/school
 
Something doesn't make sense here. Of all the places to find a lot of pilots and instructors you are probably living in the best location.. Southern California. While I don't distrust your story I'd also be surprised for a school to screw themselves that royally so I feel like some part of the story is missing

But you do have options.. work with (not against) the FSDO, and if there was ever a location with a ton of instructors then you are in it. PS, I'm not understanding why you need minimum 3 hrs / wk to stay proficient? Are you just bouncing around the pattern for those 3 hrs or are you doing cross country, etc.?

Anyway, all I can say, good luck. Flying is a small community so you have to be vigilant of the people you befriend, and upset. Generally, your best bet is to not upset anyone. If you are not happy with your instruction, etc., best bet is to just hire someone else rather than get mired up in a whole mess

In any case, good luck
 
Tantalum said:
Something doesn't make sense here. Of all the places to find a lot of pilots and instructors you are probably living in the best location.. Southern California. While I don't trust your story I'd also be surprised for a school to screw themselves that royally.

But you do have options.. work with (not against) the FSDO, and if there was ever a location with a ton of instructors then you are in it. PS, I'm not understanding why you need minimum 3 hrs / wk to stay proficient? Are you just bouncing around the pattern for those 3 hrs or are you doing cross country, etc.?

Anyway, all I can say, good luck. I feel like we're missing some details.. though. Flying is a small community so you have to be vigilant of the people you befriend, and upset. Generally, you'r best bet is to not upset anyone. If you are not happy with your instruction, etc., best bet is to just hire someone else rather than get mired up in a whole mess

In any case, good luck
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I honestly don't see how they are screwed, they already have over $14k of my money and all they don't get is my rental for the checkride? They know I own a plane and will not be renting from them after I get my ticket.

The reason I have not called the FSDO and filed a complaint is because I do not want to upset anyone. I could have came on here and listed the school, CFI and DPE by names if that is what I wanted to do.
 
Please remember that everything I have been told is second hand. DPE did nto call me and will not return my call. What I have been told is what the school employee told me.
 
You piqued my interest so I have a few specific questions, pointers, etc.:

Jamie Kirk said:
Started flying with a local school in August 2018 and right before I was signed off to solo at 14 hours I lost my CFI as he got very ill and was out for 6-8 weeks. During that time the school had no plan, kept me flying with different instructors 2-3x a week and I wish I knew then what I knew now but I basically threw thousands away.
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As much as it is important to have an attentive instructor, in the best case they'll have a syllabus, etc., the FAR also spells out very discreetly what is required of you.. IE, the FAR basically gives you the plan of what's required.. and with schools like Kings, Gleim, etc, you don't really need a CFI to hold your hand or with a plan. Track your progress as you check off the milestones (night landings, etc.). At some point you have to take charge of your instruction.. after all, it is your money

Jamie Kirk said:
When my CFI came back in January I was over 50 in hours and he was thinking we will be doing checkride prep. Nope, I haven’t even soloed and done nothing but pattern work for 50 hours.
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Surely you asked your CFI why you were doing 50 hrs worth of pattern work? Did you ask when you would leave the pattern, do a night flight, cross country, sim instrument, etc.? What was their response? I can't imagine you buzzed around doing rectangles for 50 hrs without asking why

Jamie Kirk said:
CFI tried to rush me to be checkride ready in weeks, wasn’t possible.
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Why was this not possible? From solo sign off in 14 hrs, to 50 hrs of pattern work, to weeks of checkride prep but not being possible.. something isn't adding up

cowman said:
Ahh, well for that it sounds a little more reasonable but yeah still high
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One thing I don't understand is the obsession with G1000 in otherwise slow airplanes. You can rent, WET, a 172 at Plus One in SoCal for under $120 an hr.. and you'll get a GTN650, G5, etc. I was once told that the goal is to get your all in hour rental rate as close to the TAS of the plane as possible. In that case the Tiger here is the "cheapest" plane to rent. People who spend over $200 an hr (with a CFI) for a G1000 Skyhawk, or DA40, etc, I don't get. It's like you are intentionally trying to flush money down the toilet. And in most of these cases these are PPL, and VFR only people..

Jared V said:
Something stinks here. I feel like there is missing info. There are CFI's all over "SoCal". you can't find anybody? I can make a recommendation or 2. At this point are you really needing 3 hours a week to remain proficient?
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I don't understand it either. 50 hrs of pattern work, solo sign off in 14 hrs, weeks of checkride prep but not being possible. Multiple instructors. Then getting a checkride, but the paperwork gets messed up, calling other DPEs.. seems very erratic and disjointed. We're missing some major piece of detail here


Anyway
..based on what I know my recommendation would be to just find **A** cfi that can finish you up.. interview a few people at some schools.. and focus on getting your PPL wrapped up.. coherently, and with one CFI who can work with you and guide you the rest of the way. I would not advise going rogue and finding your own DPE.. just find a CFI. As far as getting current on a particular airplane.. you can cross that bridge once you have your PPL and can reassess as needed

Good luck
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
I’ll assume you’ve checked, but my policy has an “open pilot clause” that allows anyone that meets the minimum to be PIC, but it also states that an A&P and CFI are also allowed as long as they are checking out for maint or instructing you...I don’t believe the time in type requirement applies to the A&P and CFI...could be wrong, will check tonight.
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Figured I’d reply to my own post to close the loop- my policy says 25 hrs in make & model for the open pilot clause, but only 5 for a CFI giving instruction.
 
EdFred said:
Man, if I wasn't already booked solid with trips this year, I'd say fly me out there, let me crash on your couch, we'll knock it out in a couple days, and I'll sign ya off. $0/hr.
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You're stock just went up sir.
 
Tantalum said:
You piqued my interest so I have a few specific questions, pointers, etc.:


As much as it is important to have an attentive instructor, in the best case they'll have a syllabus, etc., the FAR also spells out very discreetly what is required of you.. IE, the FAR basically gives you the plan of what's required.. and with schools like Kings, Gleim, etc, you don't really need a CFI to hold your hand or with a plan. Track your progress as you check off the milestones (night landings, etc.). At some point you have to take charge of your instruction.. after all, it is your money
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100% my fault, I did not do enough research before or during my initial training.


Surely you asked your CFI why you were doing 50 hrs worth of pattern work? Did you ask when you would leave the pattern, do a night flight, cross country, sim instrument, etc.? What was their response? I can't imagine you buzzed around doing rectangles for 50 hrs without asking why
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I was being bounced between 2-3 instructors. One day I would have one and the next I'd have another. It started as my original CFI was sick and he will be back next week. Then next week. Then next week. Again I did not put my foot down, this was my fault. I was excited and eager to just be flying and I let that blind me to what was going on.

Why was this not possible? From solo sign off in 14 hrs, to 50 hrs of pattern work, to weeks of checkride prep but not being possible.. something isn't adding up
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Original CFI got sick again. We had weather roll in. They had planes down for maintenance. They had planes down for ADSB. I took my first solo in early January, my XC was in Fenruary. My Checkreide was February 15th, we finished night requirements days before my checkride.


One thing I don't understand is the obsession with G1000 in otherwise slow airplanes. You can rent, WET, a 172 at Plus One in SoCal for under $120 an hr.. and you'll get a GTN650, G5, etc. I was once told that the goal is to get your all in hour rental rate as close to the TAS of the plane as possible. In that case the Tiger here is the "cheapest" plane to rent. People who spend over $200 an hr (with a CFI) for a G1000 Skyhawk, or DA40, etc, I don't get. It's like you are intentionally trying to flush money down the toilet. And in most of these cases these are PPL, and VFR only people..
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Only plane they had at my airport which was local was a G1000 DA40. Sure I could have drove 20 miles to the other airport but in CA that can take an hour plus each way. To save $10 an hour to spend 2 hours driving wasn't worth it.

I don't understand it either. 50 hrs of pattern work, solo sign off in 14 hrs, weeks of checkride prep but not being possible. Multiple instructors. Then getting a checkride, but the paperwork gets messed up, calling other DPEs.. seems very erratic and disjointed. We're missing some major piece of detail here
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I did not solo in 14 hours. My CFI and I spoke about next flight being a solo and that was at roughly 14 hours. But then he got sick. When he came back I had over 50 hours and still no solo. Just pattern work.


Anyway
..based on what I know my recommendation would be to just find **A** cfi that can finish you up.. interview a few people at some schools.. and focus on getting your PPL wrapped up.. coherently, and with one CFI who can work with you and guide you the rest of the way. I would not advise going rogue and finding your own DPE.. just find a CFI. As far as getting current on a particular airplane.. you can cross that bridge once you have your PPL and can reassess as needed

Good luck
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That is the plan, spent all day calling schools.
 
Rgbeard said:
You two meet each other here in Phoenix. Guaranteed three flyable days.
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My father in law lives in Prescott, he can fly my plane to Arizona for training for me and we can complete it there.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
My open pilot clause specifically states any pilot that meets the following requirements:
10 hours in type

It does not say anything about an A&P or CFI. I will email my broker.
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Check with you insurance, but mine says at least 200 hrs total OR CFI
 
Tantalum said:
One thing I don't understand is the obsession with G1000 in otherwise slow airplanes. You can rent, WET, a 172 at Plus One in SoCal for under $120 an hr.. and you'll get a GTN650, G5, etc. I was once told that the goal is to get your all in hour rental rate as close to the TAS of the plane as possible. In that case the Tiger here is the "cheapest" plane to rent. People who spend over $200 an hr (with a CFI) for a G1000 Skyhawk, or DA40, etc, I don't get. It's like you are intentionally trying to flush money down the toilet. And in most of these cases these are PPL, and VFR only people..
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Plus One / Pacific Flyers looks like an awesome outfit, I wish there was something like that here near SNA, but there is NOTHING really like that up in many parts of the LA area. Certainly not at SNA. Most of the schools at SNA you're paying $170/hr+ wet for analog, let alone glass and you don't have any other choice but to drive somewhere else, and then you have to factor in time/traffic/etc.

I e-mailed Plus One about starting something at SNA, even offered to help run it, but I got no response, and just gave up and bought my own airplane instead.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
My father in law lives in Prescott, he can fly my plane to Arizona for training for me and we can complete it there.
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If your FIL meets the insurance criteria, and your willing to travel, I’m having a hard time understanding your ability to find a COG instructor that would not work with you.

I’ll be quite rude: after reading through this, you sound a little on the high maintenance side. Maybe it’s me, and I’ll take that criticism, but a few of yours comments seem to indicate that.

Personally, were I in your shoes, I’d find a CFI that meets your policy requirements and either pay him to come to me or have my plane flown to him and finish up with that CFI while doing transition training/getting dual to knock out insurance requirements.
 
Rgbeard said:
He seems to be dodging the question on location.

Southern California could mean anything from Santa Barbara to Chula Vista. Who knows.
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Well he already accidentally ****ed off a bunch of people doing nothing but checking on other options to finish his training. I would be reluctant to openly discuss specific location on a public forum in a conversation about how big of an ******* the flight school and DPE are being to him.
 
Your endorsement is valid with any DPE your little heart desires. If you fly to that DPE”s location, you will need an XC or satellite airport endorsement.

Go see an attorney in the morning and have him send the school and the DPE a letter advising them if they do not straighten out this mess they may be invited to court.
 
TCABM said:
If your FIL meets the insurance criteria, and your willing to travel, I’m having a hard time understanding your ability to find a COG instructor that would not work with you.

I’ll be quite rude: after reading through this, you sound a little on the high maintenance side. Maybe it’s me, and I’ll take that criticism, but a few of yours comments seem to indicate that.

Personally, were I in your shoes, I’d find a CFI that meets your policy requirements and either pay him to come to me or have my plane flown to him and finish up with that CFI while doing transition training/getting dual to knock out insurance requirements.
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High maintenance? Almost 8 months and $15,000 for a PPL and I want answers is high maintenance?

Ok, thanks for you option.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
High maintenance? Almost 8 months and $15,000 for a PPL and I want answers is high maintenance?

Ok, thanks for you option.
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Your welcome. A lot of people have given you options and there’s always an excuse.
 
TCABM said:
Your welcome. A lot of people have given you options and there’s always an excuse.
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And I’ve spent 7 hours today calling CFI after school after CFI after CFI.

Not sure what excuse you are implying. I paid professionals a lot of money to only be discarded with zero answers. No phone calls were returned today either by the school, CFI or DPE.
 
There seem to be a lot of issues and one common denominator. Something doesn't add up. Are you checked out in any other aircraft?
 
Jared V said:
There seem to be a lot of issues and one common denominator. Something doesn't add up. Are you checked out in any other aircraft?
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Would love to know what that is but since no one will return my call I can’t fix it.

Nope, all endorsements are in the DA40
 
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