Frequency change when departing D

Palmpilot said:
One exception that I can think of is that when you are faced with violating one or the other of two conflicting regulations, you have to choose which one to violate. So if you believe that a controller has the authority to require the pilot of a VFR aircraft to remain on frequency when not otherwise required to do so, and if you further believe that entering class D airspace while in contact with approach control is a violation, then you have a dilemma. The best way to resolve that delemma, IMO, in order of priority, is to take whatever action is most likely to (1) result in a safe outcome of the flight, or (2) avoid an enforcement action.
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If you call Approach and ask to change frequencies to the Class D Tower and Approach replies, "no stay with me," the dilemma is of your own making.

Dunno if I did in this thread, but I have told the story of planning to transition through (not over) a Class D with a student. We were not receiving Flight Following, so my student dutifully called the Tower for transition. "Contact Approach on..."

Point is, in the case of TRACON vs Class D, we pilots don't know where the jurisdiction of one actually ends and the other begins. The ATC Handbook actually recognizes this when it says, " The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility" (italics in the Order) when discussing ATC's coordination obligation

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flyingcheesehead said:
If you're only on flight following, the controller doesn't need to "figure out what happened to the radar-identified contact." SAR is not initiated if you're on flight following and you drop off the radar. They only have to figure that stuff out if you're IFR. And if ATC is that busy, they're not going to try to figure it out - They're going to be thankful that they have one less airplane to work, and if they're really worried about you, they'll call and ask the tower if you landed *AFTER* they're not busy any more.
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ATC is required to initiate a search whenever there is an unexpected loss of radar contact and radio communications, IFR or VFR.

Maybe some of the controllers could pipe up here and say whether they would actually notice your target going to 1200, or how they feel about this.
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I've observed many aircraft change to 1200 codes as they left Class C airspace. I'd call them, there was rarely a response.
 
Pilawt said:
True, but if the controller says, "Stay with me until we get you past the one o'clock traffic," that's an offer I'm not likely to pass up.
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that was exactly my experience inbound to KRDM. they had an Alaska flight departing to PDX climbing out while i was descending in.

they were super nice about holding me, but especially coming into a new airport, I like some time to listen to the new tower (I was on comm 2) to develop the picture of what they're doing and where everyone is at in D
 
midlifeflyer said:
If you call Approach and ask to change frequencies to the Class D Tower and Approach replies, "no stay with me," the dilemma is of your own making....
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I'm not one of the ones who think that a late hand-off by a controller puts the pilot in violation, so this particular example is not a dilemma for me at all! :)
 
midlifeflyer said:
If you call Approach and ask to change frequencies to the Class D Tower and Approach replies, "no stay with me," the dilemma is of your own making.

Dunno if I did in this thread, but I have told the story of planning to transition through (not over) a Class D with a student. We were not receiving Flight Following, so my student dutifully called the Tower for transition. "Contact Approach on..."

Point is, in the case of TRACON vs Class D, we pilots don't know where the jurisdiction of one actually ends and the other begins. The ATC Handbook actually recognizes this when it says, " The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility" (red in the Order) when discussing ATC's coordination obligation
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What is this "ATC Handbook" you are referring to? The 7110.65 which is widely regarded by all controllers, doesn't have any red ink in it at all.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Again I ask regardless of political platform, what reference are you referring to when you say "ATC Handbook?"
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I think he's referring to JO 7110.65. Not sure why he thought the highlighted passage was printed in red, however.
 
Palmpilot said:
I think he's referring to JO 7110.65. Not sure why he thought the highlighted passage was printed in red, however.
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There are some republications of it which use red instead of the original italics. That's where I copied and pasted from. Nothing more complicated or underhanded than that.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The only thing I know referred to by that term is the 7110.65.

Even the FAA uses it.
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Nobody in the FAA or any other ATC facility calls the "point sixty-five" the "ATC handbook," which is why I asked. If you saw it in print, you would quickly see that its much more than a handbook. Do you have a paragraph number?
 
Timbeck2 said:
Well Mark when YOU were controlling it was more of a pamphlet. ;)
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Haha! But no, it was a couple inches thick (the .65 you pervs), at least inch and a half. Worked for a Chief at CAFB in '77 who served 33 years. I used to kid him that when he started ATC they used stepladders and megaphones to control planes.
 
We keep it in two books now and they are both 3-4" thick. This is AFTER they took out the aircraft characteristics chapter which was at least an inch thick alone.
 
Timbeck2 said:
We keep it in two books now and they are both 3-4" thick. This is AFTER they took out the aircraft characteristics chapter which was at least an inch thick alone.
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:eek: Wow. Yeah I reckon it was a pamphlet then! :yesnod:
 
Timbeck2 said:
Nobody in the FAA or any other ATC facility calls the "point sixty-five" the "ATC handbook," which is why I asked. If you saw it in print, you would quickly see that its much more than a handbook. Do you have a paragraph number?
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I've called it that here at times rather than throwing out 7110.65. Once you do that than an explanation of what it is should follow so I just say that. And it seems to me I think It's been referred to as that 'officialy' in other documents. But I ain't bettin money on it
 
Timbeck2 said:
We keep it in two books now and they are both 3-4" thick. This is AFTER they took out the aircraft characteristics chapter which was at least an inch thick alone.
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It was 3 books once. 7110.8, 9 and 10. Terminal, Enroute and Flight Service. .8 and .9 got combined into .65 late 70's/early 80's I think it was

EDIT: heres a guy who gives some history on it http://thebigskytheory.com/atp.shtml
 
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Timbeck2 said:
Nobody in the FAA or any other ATC facility calls the "point sixty-five" the "ATC handbook," which is why I asked. If you saw it in print, you would quickly see that its much more than a handbook. Do you have a paragraph number?
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A simple google search for ATC Handbook on the faa site will show multiple uses, including the ATC Handbook Revision Steering Committee. Another search within the document will show the language I quoted.
 
deyoung said:
Could you explain in more detail, that I might understand why?
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You stated that if a pilot chooses to be in communication with ATC the pilot is then actually required to follow ATC instructions. No such requirement exists.
 
roncachamp said:
That "argument" assumes the FAA wants pilots to obey instructions that it does not want controllers to issue. It's absurd.
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What instructions does the FAA not want controllers to issue? Sorry if I seem slow here, but I'm not following this assumption.

I could see making the argument that if you are VFR and not in class B, C, or D airspace then you are not "in an area in which air traffic control is exercised" -- but it doesn't sound like that's what you're trying to say (and I'm not sure it's very convincing anyway).
 
Air traffic control is exercised in all controlled airspace (which includes E).
 
midlifeflyer said:
A simple google search for ATC Handbook on the faa site will show multiple uses, including the ATC Handbook Revision Steering Committee. Another search within the document will show the language I quoted.
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I don't need to google anything as the current 7110.65 (with no red language, nor has it ever had red language in it for the last 26 years I've been controlling) is within arms reach at all times when I'm at work. We are required (as pilots are required to have current charts) to have the most current issue. I simply asked for a paragraph number as I can't find it anywhere written as you quoted it.

Edit: I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I can't find it as quoted. Having said that, I agree with the quote, "The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility" because there is something called a "point out" which allows one controller to enter another's area of jurisdiction with an aircraft under their control. Its done all the time.
 
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Timbeck2 said:
I don't need to google anything as the current 7110.65 (with no red language, nor has it ever had red language in it for the last 26 years I've been controlling) is within arms reach at all times when I'm at work. We are required (as pilots are required to have current charts) to have the most current issue. I simply asked for a paragraph number as I can't find it anywhere written as you quoted it.

Edit: I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I can't find it as quoted. Having said that, I agree with the quote, "The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility" because there is something called a "point out" which allows one controller to enter another's area of jurisdiction with an aircraft under their control. Its done all the time.
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In the version of the .65 I found with a moment's googling, the quoted text appears in italics as a NOTE to 2-1-16.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I don't need to google anything as the current 7110.65 (with no red language, nor has it ever had red language in it for the last 26 years I've been controlling) is within arms reach at all times when I'm at work. We are required (as pilots are required to have current charts) to have the most current issue. I simply asked for a paragraph number as I can't find it anywhere written as you quoted it.

Edit: I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I can't find it as quoted. Having said that, I agree with the quote, "The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility" because there is something called a "point out" which allows one controller to enter another's area of jurisdiction with an aircraft under their control. Its done all the time.
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I think part of the reason is, with all the LOAs between TRACON and Towers, pilots don't really know which facility has jurisdiction over the upper levels of Class D. That's what my student found iN the flight I mentioned earlier.
 
as pilots are required to have current charts
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Most pilots are not under any such requirement. Charting doesn't come into play until you get into the large/turbine aircraft and commercial operators.
 
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