Frequency change when departing D

zaitcev

zaitcev

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Pete Zaitcev
I was at Redbird Dallas Executive (RBD) on Saturday and the tower again neglected to clear me to change away from their frequency. For some reason, some towers aren't that interested. Santa Fe (SAF) always says "frequency change approved". I know for a fact that both RBD and SAF have radars, so that's not the difference between the two. I was not on VFR FF, if this makes a difference. Am I supposed to request a frequency change, or should I just slink away quietly?
 
Under the regulations, you are not required to wait for approval to change frequencies once you are outside the class D airspace. That's why towers may or may not say "frequency change approved" to departing aircraft.
 
Get outside of the 4 mile circle and turn your radio off if you like, no need to wait or advise.
 
Palmpilot said:
Under the regulations, you are not required to wait for approval to change frequencies once you are outside the class D airspace. That's why towers may or may not say "frequency change approved" to departing aircraft.
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This.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. Once you’re out of the airspace, you don’t have to talk to them, and they’re not responsible for you anymore.

I also had this one, once...

“Cessna Seven Niner Mike, Six VFR aircraft ahead, all appear to be inbound, you’re clear of the Class Delta, recommend you contact Denver Approach 132.75, frequency change approved.”

Hahaha. Nice hint. I took it. :)
 
Palmpilot said:
Under the regulations, you are not required to wait for approval to change frequencies once you are outside the class D airspace. That's why towers may or may not say "frequency change approved" to departing aircraft.
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And AIM 4-3-2a makes this explicit:

"In the interest of reducing tower frequency congestion, pilots are reminded that it is not necessary to request permission to leave the tower frequency once outside of Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas."
​
 
I'm not sure I agree with the AIM on this one. While it's uncommon not to get an almost immediate "contract departure", I'm not going off the air while inside a class B or C just because I've left he surface area.
 
On my last flight, I noticed that neither KBJC or KRAP gave me a "frequency change approved, good day" when I left them. Wasn't busy either place. No harm, no foul, I just know BJC was quite regular about it.
 
If the radio is not needed right away for something else, I'll leave it on Tower for quite a while after departing D... this paid off one day when I was recovering a club airplane with another pilot (that was abandoned away from home due to MX issue)... The tower was able to call and inform me that the other pilot had broken down on the taxiway, which gave me the opportunity to turn around before flying all the way back home, only to have to return to pick her up.
 
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flyingron said:
I'm not sure I agree with the AIM on this one. While it's uncommon not to get an almost immediate "contract departure", I'm not going off the air while inside a class B or C just because I've left he surface area.
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None of the previous posts say "while inside", they all say "when outside"
 
Simply ask if you're unsure.

"Hey Tower, we're clear of your airspace, can we get a freq. change?"

That is all.
 
^^^ That.

just like the courtesy call when leaving a non-towered airport. "Podunk traffic, Bug Destroyer 666 departed South, final call, Podunk"
 
Palmpilot said:
And AIM 4-3-2a makes this explicit:

"In the interest of reducing tower frequency congestion, pilots are reminded that it is not necessary to request permission to leave the tower frequency once outside of Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas."
​
Click to expand...

As the AIM says, this recommendation is for reducing frequency congestion. So, if the tower is not very busy, it is better to inform that you are switching frequency. No need to wait for approval. Just tell them you are switching frequency.
 
We've been down this road in a very thorough manner before but I can't find that thread right now for whatever reason.

The bottom line: Contrary to what I believed at the time, there is no need whatsoever to tell a class D tower that you are leaving their airspace when you leave their airspace. And, if you're not IFR or on FF they will not tell you it's okay to switch frequencies. I even confirmed this with two local class D towers at that time. Both said that they don't care.

I still have a (bad?) habit of letting them know though. "Cape tower, N5057D leaving your airspace to the NW at 4500'."
 
flyingron said:
I'm not sure I agree with the AIM on this one. While it's uncommon not to get an almost immediate "contract departure", I'm not going off the air while inside a class B or C just because I've left he surface area.
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Yes, it should have been written to make it clear that the requirement to remain in communication with ATC applies while inside any class B or C airspace, not just surface areas.
 
Palmpilot said:
Yes, it should have been written to make it clear that the requirement to remain in communication with ATC applies while inside any class B or C airspace, not just surface areas.
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How is this not clear?

"In the interest of reducing tower frequency congestion, pilots are reminded that it is not necessary to request permission to leave the tower frequency once outside of Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas."
Click to expand...
 
sarangan said:
As the AIM says, this recommendation is for reducing frequency congestion. So, if the tower is not very busy, it is better to inform that you are switching frequency. No need to wait for approval. Just tell them you are switching frequency.
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I was just answering the question about what's required. The best practice is, as always, a matter of opinion.
 
Palmpilot said:
If you're outside a class B or C surface area, you could still be inside class B or C airspace.
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OIC. Duh. Thanks for pointing out the obvious that I missed. I agree, that seems silly.
 
zaitcev said:
I was at Redbird Dallas Executive (RBD) on Saturday and the tower again neglected to clear me to change away from their frequency. For some reason, some towers aren't that interested. Santa Fe (SAF) always says "frequency change approved". I know for a fact that both RBD and SAF have radars, so that's not the difference between the two. I was not on VFR FF, if this makes a difference. Am I supposed to request a frequency change, or should I just slink away quietly?
Click to expand...

As you can see above the Tower didn’t ‘neglect’ anything. They don’t gotta do it and you don’t need it. Nothing says they can’t do it though and nothing says you can’t say ‘bye bye,’ although it is recommended that you don’t. Some Towers do it routinely, some don’t. Every ATC Facility has it’s own personality, tribal knowledge or whatever you want to call it.
 
FlySince9 said:
If the radio is not needed right away for something else, I'll leave it on Tower for quite a while after departing D... this paid off one day when I was recovering a club airplane with another pilot (that was abandoned away from home due to MX issue)... The tower was able to call and inform me that the other pilot had broken down on the taxiway, which gave me the opportunity to turn around before flying all the way back home, only to have to return to pick her up.
Click to expand...

That’s what I do unless there is a specific reason I want to get on another frequency. Besides getting a call from the Tower if they see something and assume you are still there to hear it, you can get a ‘picture’ of what’s going on around there by listening.
 
The class D I fly from has nearly always said "Remain clear of Class Bravo, frequency change approved". Probably because it's under a Class B shelf and you have to fly a good ways to get out from under...

I always tell passengers "They're saying I'm not their problem any more." :)
 
Ravioli said:
just like the courtesy call when leaving a non-towered airport. "Podunk traffic, Bug Destroyer 666 departed South, final call, Podunk"
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Ugh... “final/last call”; wasted, meaningless syllables on the radio. It means nothing and no one really cares. Just say “departing south” and be done...
 
jbDC9 said:
Ugh... “final/last call”; wasted, meaningless syllables on the radio. It means nothing and no one really cares. Just say “departing south” and be done...
Click to expand...
Who really cares though?
 
Ravioli said:
^^^ That.

just like the courtesy call when leaving a non-towered airport. "Podunk traffic, Bug Destroyer 666 departed South, final call, Podunk"
Click to expand...

jbDC9 said:
Ugh... “final/last call”; wasted, meaningless syllables on the radio. It means nothing and no one really cares. Just say “departing south” and be done...
Click to expand...

LOL I was gonna say it.

I don’t care if it’s your final call or your first. I’m just looking for you where you said you were.

If you don’t make any more calls I won’t look anymore. :)

And most of the time people aren’t where they said they were anyway. Hahaha.

“Short final”... huh, look at that. He’s literally six miles out...

“Departure end of XX”... oh look. Another six miles.

Hahaha.

Etc. :)
 
zaitcev said:
I was at Redbird Dallas Executive (RBD) on Saturday and the tower again neglected to clear me to change away from their frequency. For some reason, some towers aren't that interested. Santa Fe (SAF) always says "frequency change approved". I know for a fact that both RBD and SAF have radars, so that's not the difference between the two. I was not on VFR FF, if this makes a difference. Am I supposed to request a frequency change, or should I just slink away quietly?
Click to expand...


"4-3-2. Airports with an Operating Control Tower
a. When operating at an airport where traffic control is being exercised by a control tower, pilots are required to maintain two-way radio contact with the tower while operating within the Class B, Class C, and Class D surface area unless the tower authorizes otherwise. Initial callup should be made about 15 miles from the airport. Unless there is a good reason to leave the tower frequency before exiting the Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas, it is a good operating practice to remain on the tower frequency for the purpose of receiving traffic information. In the interest of reducing tower frequency congestion, pilots are reminded that it is not necessary to request permission to leave the tower frequency once outside of Class B, Class C, and Class D surface areas. Not all airports with an operating control tower will have Class D airspace. These airports do not have weather reporting which is a requirement for surface based controlled airspace, previously known as a control zone. The controlled airspace over these airports will normally begin at 700 feet or 1,200 feet above ground level and can be determined from the visual aeronautical charts. Pilots are expected to use good operating practices and communicate with the control tower as described in this section."

Bob
 
Salty said:
None of the previous posts say "while inside", they all say "when outside"
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I'm talking about the specific quote from the AIM. It says "outside of the surface area" which means outside the entire airspace for class D, but not necessarily for B or C.
 
Ravioli said:
^^^ That.

just like the courtesy call when leaving a non-towered airport. "Podunk traffic, Bug Destroyer 666 departed South, final call, Podunk"
Click to expand...

Nah, never make and don't like hearing "last call", I always want to order a drink when I hear that. I don't say it because I've never been a bartender . . . . .

When I leave an uncontrolled field, it's just "Podunk traffic, bug smasher 666 departing to the south, Podunk."
 
jbDC9 said:
Ugh... “final/last call”; wasted, meaningless syllables on the radio. It means nothing and no one really cares. Just say “departing south” and be done...
Click to expand...

I hear that "last call" bull shet every ****ing day! Where did that even come from?
 
I add a lot of umms and ahhhs in my calls to make things clearer...… oh, and I say I'm "like" 25 miles from the airport on first call because, you never know precisely where you are and I want to be precise.
 
"Everything that is not explicitly prohibited is permitted"
"Everything that is not explicitly permitted is prohibited."
I generally follow the first one, and I think that is the FAA's guiding principle, too.
The problems occur when pilot and ATC follow opposite principles.
 
Why do some people think it's a "courtesy" to tell a tower you've left their airspace? You advise your intentions on departure , and 3-4 minutes later you'll be out of the airspace. If for some reason they want to you to tell them, you'll be asked to report clear of the Class D. If you're not specifically asked for that report, it is neither wanted nor needed, and you're just tying up the frequency for no reason.
Jon
 
I'm getting more and more grumpy I guess, but I keep hearing stupid pilot tricks on the radio and this gets old.

Of course we've all discussed "Any traffic in the area please advise." Waste of time...

Lately I've heard guys flying formation on the CTAF for a local airport. That's always smart on a busy frequency.

"Last Call" at a non-towered frequency. I guess it doesn't hurt anything, but when did people start saying this?

There were two planes at our airport the other day, both from the same school that were doing full-stop landings. They would exit the runway, then say they were back-taxiing to 17. I finally snapped and told them this is called taxiing, not back-taxiing. You're making people on final nervous. They no longer made this call.

Another plane from the same school went into a panic when I told them I had them in sight and would enter downwind behind them, no factor. He said they didn't have me in sight. A few seconds later, he said he still didn't have me in sight and asked where I was. I replied that I was behind him on downwind, #2, and was no factor. He again said he still didn't see me. I told him he didn't need to see me, I was behind him and giving him plenty of space. Focus on flying your plane!!!

Maybe it's me, but if I'm on short final, and you're on downwind, I don't need you to tell me you have the landing traffic in sight. It doesn't matter, you couldn't hit me if you tried. (But I did start off by saying I've been more grumpy lately...) :) Maybe I can allow this one!
 
Lowflynjack said:
"Last Call" at a non-towered frequency. I guess it doesn't hurt anything, but when did people start saying this?
Click to expand...

I seem to remember an article in one of the AOPA magazines recommending this quite a while ago (a decade or more). I forget when it was and who wrote it, but it was probably something made up by some CFI long ago that got passed down far enough to be taught to a CFI who then managed to start writing articles for AOPA, and then it went everywhere.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I'm getting more and more grumpy I guess, but I keep hearing stupid pilot tricks on the radio and this gets old.

Of course we've all discussed "Any traffic in the area please advise." Waste of time...

Lately I've heard guys flying formation on the CTAF for a local airport. That's always smart on a busy frequency.

"Last Call" at a non-towered frequency. I guess it doesn't hurt anything, but when did people start saying this?

There were two planes at our airport the other day, both from the same school that were doing full-stop landings. They would exit the runway, then say they were back-taxiing to 17. I finally snapped and told them this is called taxiing, not back-taxiing. You're making people on final nervous. They no longer made this call.

Another plane from the same school went into a panic when I told them I had them in sight and would enter downwind behind them, no factor. He said they didn't have me in sight. A few seconds later, he said he still didn't have me in sight and asked where I was. I replied that I was behind him on downwind, #2, and was no factor. He again said he still didn't see me. I told him he didn't need to see me, I was behind him and giving him plenty of space. Focus on flying your plane!!!

Maybe it's me, but if I'm on short final, and you're on downwind, I don't need you to tell me you have the landing traffic in sight. It doesn't matter, you couldn't hit me if you tried. (But I did start off by saying I've been more grumpy lately...) :) Maybe I can allow this one!
Click to expand...

The advisory that they have you in sight on short final means don't dilly dally on the runway. Saying back taxiing while taxiing on a taxi way is just wrong, and you are correct.
I don't like the long conversations about tonight's plans while 4 planes are in the pattern.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I seem to remember an article in one of the AOPA magazines recommending this quite a while ago (a decade or more). I forget when it was and who wrote it, but it was probably something made up by some CFI long ago that got passed down far enough to be taught to a CFI who then managed to start writing articles for AOPA, and then it went everywhere.
Click to expand...

Yeah. And things go everywhere. Everywhere. At light speed. Amazing how misinformation can have consequences on a Global scale in a very short period of time.
 
Ryanb said:
Simply ask if you're unsure.

"Hey Tower, we're clear of your airspace, can we get a freq. change?"

That is all.
Click to expand...

No. If you are outside of their airspace they have no authority to tell you anything. "In the interest of reducing frequency congestion....", shut up.

Bob
 
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