Fox News Reports Plane Violated DC No Fly Zone

From AP: said:
A friend said the plane was scheduled to be flown by Jim Sheaffer, of Lititz, and a student pilot to an air show in Lumberton, N.C.
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Certainly they weren't trying to fly direct...
 
As the attached screen capture from the AOPA home page shows, the timing of this incident couldn't be more ironic.

I've also attached a capture from Jeppesen FliteStar that shows the C150's apparent planned route from Smoketown, PA (S37) to an airshow in Lumberton, NC (KLBT). This direct route goes right through the heart of the ADIZ (and even pre-2001, would have penetrated all kinds of controlled airspace).

It's interesting to note that according to FliteStar, the direct distance is 353 nm. Using FliteStar's C150 aircraft model, the trip is estimated to take 03:46, which would leave them with 4 gallons in the tanks (assuming no wind).

Finally, the latest weather in the area is:

 KFDK 111803Z AUTO 23006KT 10SM SCT060 31/16 A2998
 KBWI 111754Z VRB04KT 10SM FEW048 BKN250 27/14 A2998
 KDCA 111751Z 19009KT 10SM FEW055 BKN250 25/16 A3000
 
woodstock said:
agree, agree, agree.

has anyone here ever seen the picture of the Queen Mum, the day after her HOME was bombed, picking among the rubble, carrying her purse?

they need to make more people like the Queen Mum.

edit:

quote:

1940: A German bomb hits Buckingham Palace a year after the outbreak of World War II. With London's East End already hard hit, it allows the queen to say "at least we can look the East End in the eye," a phrase that adds to her growing reputation as an incarnation of Britain's indomitable courage and
spirit of resistance.
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I just saw only the one you posted...

It brought to mind Churchills statement upon refusing a case of brandy commandeered from somewhere and sending it instead along with the Spitfire's pilot to share with the other RAF officers:
"No, you boys take it. During this whole bloody affair I've never gone without excellent brandy or a good cigar."
 
Damn shame.

The plane is a regular on the training and flying circuit at S37, I see it up all the time. I think it gets used for some EAA training, and many of the members of the club are EAA folk.

Don't know what happened there. We all of us who live close to the ADIZ know we cannot do this stuff. It is just basically a no-no.

One thing though, you sure aren't going to pull off much terrorism in a 150 with two people on board. Can you even get full fuel with two good sized males on the plane, much less any sort of cargo?

Jim G
 
Another AP article:

The plane was registered to Vintage Aero Club, a group of people who fly from Smoketown Airport in Pennsylvania's Lancaster County, said club member Merv King. Former club member John E. Henderson said the plane was scheduled to be flown by Jim Sheaffer of Lititz, Pa., and student pilot Troy Martin, of Akron, Pa. to an air show in Lumberton, N.C.

Martin's wife, Jill, said the two men left late Wednesday morning for Lumberton.

"Troy was discussing with me last night after they made their flight plans all about the no-fly zones and how they were going to avoid them. He said they were going to fly between two different restricted areas," she said.
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Len Lanetti said:
Gotta love that GPS.

Len
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I don't think that plane is nearly well equipped enough for GPS on board. Any gps on that thing would have to be a handheld.

I wouldn't want to fly in the ADIZ, even on an ADIZ VFR, with the navigation equipment that I am pretty sure that 150 has on board. While it is a nice training plane, my recollection of the panel is that it is VFR only, not an IFR plane. I don't think I have ever seen it trained for IFR.

I insist that the rental planes I fly have current GPS database before I venture into the DC airspace.

Jim G
 
The guy from the Capitol Police DID say nice things about General Aviation and how we are working hard on security and that they were pleased about that.
 
grattonja said:
I don't think that plane is nearly well equipped enough for GPS on board. Any gps on that thing would have to be a handheld.

I wouldn't want to fly in the ADIZ, even on an ADIZ VFR, with the navigation equipment that I am pretty sure that 150 has on board. While it is a nice training plane, my recollection of the panel is that it is VFR only, not an IFR plane. I don't think I have ever seen it trained for IFR.

I insist that the rental planes I fly have current GPS database before I venture into the DC airspace.

Jim G
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With proper pilotage and charts, there's no reason they couldn't have avoided the ADIZ ad FRZ. I'm sorry, there's no excuse for this even in a bare bones C-150, which I'm sure had at least one Nav/Com and like you said, probably a handheld GPS.
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
I just saw only the one you posted...

It brought to mind Churchills statement upon refusing a case of brandy commandeered from somewhere and sending it instead along with the Spitfire's pilot to share with the other RAF officers:
"No, you boys take it. During this whole bloody affair I've never gone without excellent brandy or a good cigar."
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Churchill, what a guy. For his martinis, instead of waving the bottle of vermouth over the glass like folks do to be humorous, he merely turned to France and saluted. funny!

also remember hearing stories (from my various trips to Normandy) that when the Brits came on shore on D-Day (Gold/Sword) they were handed mugs of tea (apparently to show their sang-froid). ha!
 
grattonja said:
I insist that the rental planes I fly have current GPS database before I venture into the DC airspace.
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Jim,

My point is that GPS is not the solution. The solution is mindset.

It doesn't matter what equipment the PIC has at their disposal. The PIC is charged with obeying the rules. Anyone with PIC authority to make a cross country needs to be able navigate with the equipment on board. If all the PIC has is a wet compass the PIC has to plan the flight accordingly to stay away from the places where the PIC shouldn't be.

Jeez, if a PICs pilotage skills are non to good...depart Smoketown, head SE 'till you see the Delaware river, follow to the Atlantic Ocean, turn right....

Len
 
Anthony said:
With proper pilotage and charts, there's no reason they couldn't have avoided the ADIZ ad FRZ. I'm sorry, there's no excuse for this even in a bare bones C-150, which I'm sure had at least one Nav/Com and like you said, probably a handheld GPS.
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I was just replying to the quote above, bemoaning the excessive dependence on GPS.

I agree. It is not that hard to avoid the FRZ or ADIZ. I am just saying, for situational awareness and comfort, I prefer IFR GPS with current data. Of course, truth be told, I prefer IFR active flight plan and ATC control through the ADIZ. Then, if there is a screw up, I am not alone in fault.

Jim G
 
Len Lanetti said:
Jim,

My point is that GPS is not the solution. The solution is mindset.

It doesn't matter what equipment the PIC has at their disposal. The PIC is charged with obeying the rules. Anyone with PIC authority to make a cross country needs to be able navigate with the equipment on board. If all the PIC has is a wet compass the PIC has to plan the flight accordingly to stay away from the places where the PIC shouldn't be.

Jeez, if a PICs pilotage skills are non to good...depart Smoketown, head SE 'till you see the Delaware river, follow to the Atlantic Ocean, turn right....

Len
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Not arguing with you at all. We are all responsible to follow the rules, period. And all of us with airports close to the ADIZ either know those rules well and follow them, or don't go in the airspace. Or do something foolish.

What a bad time for this to happen, too, with AOPA et all just starting to maybe turn Congress around on the ADIZ. :(

Jim G
 
3 miles is so close, you can't tell me you cannot see the Capitol.

it could also be argued to Congress - look how completely nutty and a waste of time to do this every time someone bumbles into the air space.
 
Stupid CNN. They cut off Boyer in the middle of his interview, where he was about to explain how GA cannot be considered a serious terrorism threat, using the example of the suicide in FLA.

Sigh...that would have gone miles to keep people from freaking about how dangerous it is that we fly.
 
why did they bother to evacuate? they said the plane was 3 miles from the capitol when they made the evacuation call. it took them 5 - 6 minutes to get out of the building..I dont know how strong the winds were in DC but it doesnt take me 5-6 minutes to go 3 miles.
 
"The incident began at 11:28 a.m., when Federal Aviation Administration radar picked up the aircraft, a small two-seater Cessna 150 with high wings."

(Excite, http://apnews.excite.com/article/20050511/D8A158O80.html)

OK, that settles it. It wasn't pilot error, it was airframe configuration error. You wouldn't see a Piper causing all this rucus.

Dan
 
We can talk about how stupid the pilots were, how the airspace is well marked, and that it all looks bad for us til we are blue - but all I can think about is, "They've won."

The terrorists continue to achieve their goal of making us all panic and spend all our money on nonsense like this, years after the Sept. 11 attacks.
I like the stiff upper lip approach advocated by others.

We continue to let them win by our choices and reactions.
 
Associated Press said:
...since the Sept. 11 attacks. In the 3 1/2 years since then, hundreds of small planes have flown within the restricted airspace around the capital — a 15 3/4-mile radius around the Washington Monument.
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Really, hundreds? Why is this such a big story then? Even at just 100 incursions that would be over 2 per month on average over the last 42 months.
 
This one is a big story because it got all the way downtown. Most of the incursions are at the edges.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
We can talk about how stupid the pilots were, how the airspace is well marked, and that it all looks bad for us til we are blue - but all I can think about is, "They've won."

The terrorists continue to achieve their goal of making us all panic and spend all our money on nonsense like this, years after the Sept. 11 attacks.
I like the stiff upper lip approach advocated by others.

We continue to let them win by our choices and reactions.
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We need to get positive news to the scrambling ground-bound masses out there about GA, like in Joe's CAP MSFT Flite Sim post or get on the action TV stuff.

They do love sensationalism:

I happened upon and watched the end of the NUMB3RS program on network TV about a week ago (it was an accident ! ...becuase I stopped when I saw an airplane while channel surfing).

The culprit was flying a STEALTH GA airplane that he had designed to penetrate TFRs to prove it could be done. He died by default, breaking up in the air enroute to a TFR at night and undetected on RADAR from his son's previously undisclosed and redesigned rudder servo of the fly by wire empenage.

What WE NEED on TV or movies is some scenario like that but were the GA airplane saves the day !
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
We can talk about how stupid the pilots were, how the airspace is well marked, and that it all looks bad for us til we are blue - but all I can think about is, "They've won."

The terrorists continue to achieve their goal of making us all panic and spend all our money on nonsense like this, years after the Sept. 11 attacks.
I like the stiff upper lip approach advocated by others.

We continue to let them win by our choices and reactions.
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I sure agree with your post. Any action by government against terrorists, which treats a Cessna 150 with two people on it, a plane incapable of carrying any real cargo, as a genuine terrorist threat, is action proving the terrorists have won. We are wasting government money and time chasing minor ADIZ/FRZ incursions, and our leaders look silly every time they "duck and cover" over a cessna incursion.

It's time to re-think this whole issue.

Jim G
 
Steve said:
Maybe it's just me, but drawing a big bulls-eye on aeronautical charts is not the way you thwart terrorists. "Don't go here"....right.....:rofl:
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LOL. I agree. :yes:

However, for pete's sake, people should *really* learn how to read a sectional and a terminal chart. Makes me wonder what navigational materials he had in the plane with him. Or just how distracted he got.

I'm with everyone who wants this guy to be tried by a jury of his pilot peers. I'm tired of the bad publicity.

Carolyn
 
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/

this is sure to be on one of the chats tomorrow. I will monitor, and if there is a chat which might cover this, I'll post an alert here in case anyone wants to contribute. (the online chats are at the bottom of the main page, right corner).
 
I'd played hooky this morning to go fly out of JYO. As I pulled into work around noon in the Dulles area, I saw a fighter jet just to the north.......first words out of my mouth were "ahhh s**t!" Then the radio has the news flash about the evacuation and a "little airplane".............double ahhhh s**t..........
 
grattonja said:
I sure agree with your post. Any action by government against terrorists, which treats a Cessna 150 with two people on it, a plane incapable of carrying any real cargo, as a genuine terrorist threat, is action proving the terrorists have won. We are wasting government money and time chasing minor ADIZ/FRZ incursions, and our leaders look silly every time they "duck and cover" over a cessna incursion.

It's time to re-think this whole issue.

Jim G
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BIG DITTO!
 
Razor said:
Or just how distracted he got.
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Carolyn,

That's funny. He was flying a God forsaken 150. For cryin out loud, they only go 100 miles an hour on a good day. He would have to be distracted for at least 20 minutes just to get to the ADIZ and another 20 minutes from the edge of the ADIZ to White House.

I wonder what he was thinking as he flew over BWI.

Well, at least he didn't fly over Camp David, the moron.

Len
 
grattonja said:
I sure agree with your post. Any action by government against terrorists, which treats a Cessna 150 with two people on it, a plane incapable of carrying any real cargo, as a genuine terrorist threat, is action proving the terrorists have won. We are wasting government money and time chasing minor ADIZ/FRZ incursions, and our leaders look silly every time they "duck and cover" over a cessna incursion.

It's time to re-think this whole issue.

Jim G
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You betcha.

I look at it this way, it took them until a C-152 was ***3 miles*** from the White House before they intercepted. We'll generously call it a Sparrowhawk and say the TAS is about 100 kts, knowing full well it probably had a ground speed of about 80 kts tops. So, what they're telling me is that the FRZ and ADIZ are worthless since someone in something with an actual payload going 200+ kts would never have been intercepted. They'd have actually gotten to the White House before the Vipers arrived.

Go figure.

Carolyn
 
Razor said:
So, what they're telling me is that the FRZ and ADIZ are worthless since someone in something with an actual payload going 200+ kts would never have been intercepted. They'd have actually gotten to the White House before the Vipers arrived.
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That's right. But to the paranoid that's simply further proof that the ADIZ/FRZ/TFR areas should be EXPANDED to 100 nm. After all, isn't it too often the government mindset that if something isn't working it's because it's not big enough/expensive enough, not that it's a lousy idea in the first place?
 
Len Lanetti said:
Carolyn,

That's funny. He was flying a God forsaken 150. For cryin out loud, they only go 100 miles an hour on a good day. He would have to be distracted for at least 20 minutes just to get to the ADIZ and another 20 minutes from the edge of the ADIZ to White House.

I wonder what he was thinking as he flew over BWI.

Well, at least he didn't fly over Camp David, the moron.

Len
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I was more or less referring to the incredible tendency of people to bury themselves in their handheld GPS rather than looking out the window with a map.

You know as well as I do that some people are certificated pilots because they had a good day on their checkride. Who knows what other variables went into today's fracas.

I was just prognosticating. :rolleyes:

Carolyn
 
Ken Ibold said:
That's right. But to the paranoid that's simply further proof that the ADIZ/FRZ/TFR areas should be EXPANDED to 100 nm. After all, isn't it too often the government mindset that if something isn't working it's because it's not big enough/expensive enough, not that it's a lousy idea in the first place?
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Good point. I used common sense, but we *are* talking about politicians here... ;)

Carolyn
 
Razor said:
You betcha.

I look at it this way, it took them until a C-152 was ***3 miles*** from the White House before they intercepted. We'll generously call it a Sparrowhawk and say the TAS is about 100 kts, knowing full well it probably had a ground speed of about 80 kts tops. So, what they're telling me is that the FRZ and ADIZ are worthless since someone in something with an actual payload going 200+ kts would never have been intercepted. They'd have actually gotten to the White House before the Vipers arrived.

Go figure.

Carolyn
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According to the timeline CNN is publishing, 150 kts would have done the job just okey fine. I expect the ADIZ will expand to better thwart the hypothetical 200 kt aircraft. But then again, maybe someone will recall the final score from the last White House vs. Small GA Aircraft smack down match--

Score: White House 1, Small GA Airplane 0.
 
Ken Ibold said:
That's right. But to the paranoid that's simply further proof that the ADIZ/FRZ/TFR areas should be EXPANDED to 100 nm. After all, isn't it too often the government mindset that if something isn't working it's because it's not big enough/expensive enough, not that it's a lousy idea in the first place?
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Ken's right.

We were finally making progress in Congress to reduce the ADIZ and restrictions and these yahoos went and gave the security weenies reason to make a big media event.

It will be MUCH harder for us to make progress on reducing the ADIZ when the security folks can point to this kind of event and say "we told you so". Even though reducing the ADIZ will undoubtedly reduce the number of incursions.

The court of public opinion is the one that counts.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
But then again, maybe someone will recall the final score from the last White House vs. Small GA Aircraft smack down match--
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Ed, I hope you're right! We keep hoping cooler heads will prevail, and then these yahoos go and get everyone steamed up again!

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Ed Guthrie said:
But then again, maybe someone will recall the final score from the last White House vs. Small GA Aircraft smack down match--

Score: White House 1, Small GA Airplane 0.
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Ed,

Are you referencing the 172 that landed on the White House lawn...I thought that was a fairly controlled landing.

Len
 
Len Lanetti said:
Ed,

Are you referencing the 172 that landed on the White House lawn...I thought that was a fairly controlled landing.

Len
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The pilot was dead, and the aircraft destroyed, IIRC. I think they had to replant some grass in the White House lawn, and maybe repaint a part of one of the walls....
 
The terrorists are 'busy'... they are hoping we shoot a small plane down then they can say, "See! Now we have them in such a panic they are killing themselves!" and they would be right.

DO AWAY WITH THE ADIZs!
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The terrorists are 'busy'... they are hoping we shoot a small plane down then they can say, "See! Now we have them in such a panic they are killing themselves!" and they would be right.

DO AWAY WITH THE ADIZs!
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Actually, maybe that would help pilots pay more attention ? Apparently, certificate suspensions &/or fines don't for a lot of pilots.
 
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