Fox News Reports Plane Violated DC No Fly Zone

[poadeleted3]

Actually, maybe that would help pilots pay more attention ? Apparently, certificate suspensions &/or fines don't for a lot of pilots.

Are you advocating murdering American citizens, men, women, and children, in the name of "security?"

 

[gibbons]

Carolyn,

That's funny. He was flying a God forsaken 150. For cryin out loud, they only go 100 miles an hour on a good day.
Len

Ah Len, that's what I thought too but apparently we are both incorrect. I heard on CNN just a while ago that a Cessna 150 travels over 120 MPH. So there you have it. Please make the appropriate updates to your POH.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Are you advocating murdering American citizens, men, women, and children, in the name of "security?"

Quite the contrary.

I think if only one pilot got blown away by an F16 because of his own negligence in a TFR it would cause the other hundreds of slackees to pay more attention.

 

[poadeleted3]

Ah Len, that's what I thought too but apparently we are both incorrect. I heard on CNN just a while ago that a Cessna 150 travels over 120 MPH. So there you have it. Please make the appropriate updates to your POH.

I've flown one that would make 105 knots. Wouldn't climb worth a darn, and scared me on takeoff even when solo because it took so long to get off the ground, though.

 

[poadeleted3]

Quite the contrary.

I think if only one pilot got blown away by an F16 because of his own negligence in a TFR it would cause the other hundreds of slackees to pay more attention.

Hmm.. I reckon we could also have state troopers just whip out their pistols and cap the next few speeders they pull over. That'd sure get the attention of all those other slackers out there buzzing along, ignoring our laws and endangering us all!!

Then there are those ill mannered high school kids with the purple hair. Hang a couple of those from the school flag pole, and the others would sure jump into line.

 

[Moxie]

It was a student with his instructor.

I bet that student learned quite the invaluable lesson today. WOOT!

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Hmm.. I reckon we could also have state troopers just whip out their pistols and cap the next few speeders they pull over. That'd sure get the attention of all those other slackers out there buzzing along, ignoring our laws and endangering us all!!

Then there are those ill mannered high school kids with the purple hair. Hang a couple of those from the school flag pole, and the others would sure jump into line.

How would you suggest we get pilots to pay attention to where they're not supposed to be ?

Remember, these are the pilots that are giving us all the bad name we don't need or deserve.

 

[poadeleted3]

How would you suggest we get pilots to pay attention to where they're not supposed to be ?

Remember, these are the pilots that are giving us all the bad name we don't need or deserve.

Gee, Dave, I don't know, but blowing them away just seems a bit extreme here in the land of the free. We go to war against people that treat their citizens that way, remember?

"So, little Timmy, why were your Daddy and 5 year old sister shot down and executed?" "Well, Daddy got lost, and gave Dave a bad name." "Well, I guess your dad and criminal wench sister got what they had coming... can't have folks going around giving others a bad name!"

 

[mikea]

They ought to let a jury of pilots decide this guy's fate -- with the 8th Amendment suspended for the occasion.

At this point, there is just no excuse for any licensed pilot not knowing about this thing and blowing that far into it. While I have little sympathy for those who clip the ADIZ trying to skirt it too closely, I can understand how it happens. OTOH, I cannot imagine any possible explanation for how one could end up nearly in the center of the FRZ uninvited.

How close do you have to get to see the Capitol building, when it's BY LAW the tallest point in the city?

I spotted the story on MSNBC as I was getting lunch. They had a congressman from Georgia live telling how he was evacuated. He complained about only having 4 minutes notice.

Can we guess how they'll fix that little problem?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Gee, Dave, I don't know, but blowing them away just seems a bit extreme here in the land of the free. We go to war against people that treat their citizens that way, remember?

"So, little Timmy, why were your Daddy and 5 year old sister shot down and executed?" "Well, Daddy got lost, and gave Dave a bad name." "Well, I guess your dad and criminal wench sister got what they had coming... can't have folks going around giving others a bad name!"

You're reading way more into it than I ever wrote Joe.

But until a violated TFR is eliminated legally, if some F16 pilot doing their job for all us citizens does blow away some daddy from our USA that can't navigate that well to avoid a TFR, I don't have much problem with it. Except that ideally the situation shouldn't exist in the first place, niether the TFR nor the violation by the GA pilot.

As long as the F16 is obeying the law and paying attention and the pilot isn't paying attention and breaking a law or reg, I say after so many years of this BS since 911, then they deserve it. It's a miracle it hasn't happened already.

 

[Henning]

They ought to let a jury of pilots decide this guy's fate -- with the 8th Amendment suspended for the occasion.

At this point, there is just no excuse for any licensed pilot not knowing about this thing and blowing that far into it. While I have little sympathy for those who clip the ADIZ trying to skirt it too closely, I can understand how it happens. OTOH, I cannot imagine any possible explanation for how one could end up nearly in the center of the FRZ uninvited.

OTOH, I can recall circling the White House and the Capitol building low taking pictures of them. Maybe the guy was having an Alzheimers moment.

 

[RogerT]

LOL. I agree.
I'm with everyone who wants this guy to be tried by a jury of his pilot peers. I'm tired of the bad publicity.

Carolyn

I'm with Carolyn on this one. I just fail to see how anyone can not
look out the window and at the map and keep track of where they
are. And that should take on special importance anywhere around
DC.

I also am left scratching my head at getting all those people out
in the street for a Cessna 150.

 

[BruceAir]

How close do you have to get to see the Capitol building, when it's BY LAW the tallest point in the city?

I'm not sure where that statement comes from. Note the following from the Web site of the Architect of the Capitol.

Which is taller, the Capitol or the Washington Monument?
The Washington Monument, standing 555 feet tall, is 267 feet taller than the Capitol. Because the base of the Washington Monument is 30 feet above sea level, and that of the Capitol is 88 feet above sea level, the top of the Washington Monument is 209 feet higher than the top of the Capitol.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

I also am left scratching my head at getting all those people out in the street for a Cessna 150.

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner.

F-16 Pilot: Ah, come on. This guy isn't carrying explosives. H#$#, he traded fuel for a passenger. What kind of self-respecting terrorist would trade incendiary material for a passenger?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Ah Len, that's what I thought too but apparently we are both incorrect. I heard on CNN just a while ago that a Cessna 150 travels over 120 MPH. So there you have it. Please make the appropriate updates to your POH.

The ones I've flown will go A LOT FASTER than that.
Right on through the yellow arc in a cruise descent &/or dive.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Ed,

Are you referencing the 172 that landed on the White House lawn...I thought that was a fairly controlled landing.

Len

The one I remember gouged the lawn enroute to smashing into the White House wall. You call that "landed"? Is that your idea of proper short field technique?

Radar Detected Airplane before White House Crash

By Ruben Castaneda and Pierre Thomas
The Washington Post
WASHINGTON

The plane that slammed against the White House early Monday morning had been detected by radar at National Airport minutes before the crash, according to federal investigators who are trying to determine why Secret Service officers guarding the mansion weren't warned of the aircraft's approach.

Frank Eugene Corder, 38, a student pilot with a history of alcohol and drug abuse, stole the single-engine Cessna from an airfield north of Baltimore and died in the crash, officials said. Initial interviews with associates of Corder suggest the crash was intentional, federal officials said, but they said they did not believe it was politically motivated.

FBI and Secret Service investigators plan to pore over Federal Aviation Administration records to determine what the FAA's radar showed, whether it seemed to indicate a potential threat, and what was done with the information, federal sources said.

As it turned out, a patch of lawn, a holly hedge and an old magnolia tree were all that slowed down the airplane as it hurtled toward the home of the president.

Startled uniformed Secret Service officers at the White House saw the descending plane at 1:49 a.m. and ducked for cover. The plane crashed onto the South Lawn of the White House, skidded, slammed through the hedge and clipped the tree before it hit a wall on the west side of the mansion.

Corder had stolen the plane from an airfield north of Baltimore, investigators said. Federal officials conceded that Corder's flight exposed a seam in the government's muscular, electronically sophisticated zone of presidential defense.

Heavily armed guards protect the president and his home. Buildings are searched and snipers are perched for presidential motorcades. And flying over or near the White House, the Mall, the monuments and the Capitol is prohibited by federal law. But if someone chooses not to obey the rules, they can zoom into the forbidden zone without resistance, federal officials and aviators said.

"The scenario for a crackpot pilot being able to do that is within reason," said Leo Janssens, president of the Ohio-based Aviation Safety Institute. "It's almost impossible to keep planes out of that area because it's so close to National Airport."

The astonishing crash raised questions about the basic security of the home and office of the president.

Only after repeated questions did Carl Meyer, a Secret Service special agent, acknowledge that Secret Service officers had not fired on the plane to prevent it from reaching the White House. Asked how much notice the officers had of the plane, Meyer responded, "I think enough time to run for cover."

President Clinton and his family are staying at Blair House, just north of the mansion, while the White House is being renovated. They were not harmed or awakened by the crash.

"Any effort like this has to be treated as an assumed assassination attempt," said Sen. Dennis DeConcini, D-Ariz. Numerous questions need to be answered, said the senator, who sits on a subcommittee that oversees the Secret Service.

It was unclear Monday whether the Secret Service has a specific plan to deal with an airborne attack. Secret Service officials declined to answer questions on the matter.

Corder, of Perry Point, Md., was killed on impact, officials said. Corder, a high school dropout from Aberdeen, was an Army veteran who until recently had owned a trucking company. Until recent weeks, he had lived with his wife on the grounds of the Veterans Hospital in Perry Point, in Harford County. About two weeks ago, Corder separated from his wife. Since then he had been living out of his car, a federal official involved in the investigation said.

Much about Corder and his flight could not be determined Monday.

Federal investigators and officials at the Harford County Airpark, from where Corder stole the plane, gave this account of the events leading to the crash:

About 7 p.m. Sunday, the single-engine, two-seat Cessna airplane was returned to the airfield by a student pilot who had flown it for training.

Airfield manager Joseph V. Kessler said the plane was still at the field when he left at 8:30 p.m.

At 1:49 a.m., Secret Service agents and witnesses saw the plane descend toward the White House.

Eyewitnesses said the plane flew near the Washington Monument, then banked left and turned toward the White House.

Arthur Jones, a White House spokesman, said the plane initially hit the grass lawn about 75 feet from a holly hedge and a magnolia tree that was planted during Andrew Jackson's presidency, from 1829 to 1837. The plane skidded into the hedge, and its left wing was clipped by the magnolia tree, Jones said.

The plane traveled another 30 feet before crashing into the West Wing of the White House, Jones said. A mangled heap stopped against the wall to the office of the White House physician, Jones said.

Navy Lt. Cmdr. Rich Fitzpatrick, who carries "the football," a suitcase containing codes to launch nuclear weapons, was sleeping in the basement of the White House. Awakened by the crash, he called the head of the White House military office, who called White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta.

Copyright 1994,95, The Tech. All rights reserved.
This story was published on September 13, 1994.
Volume 114, Number 40.
This story appeared on page 2.
This article may be freely distributed electronically, provided it is distributed in its entirety and includes this notice, but may not be reprinted without the express written permission of The Tech. Write to archive@the-tech.mit.edu for additional details.

 

[jdwatson]

3 miles is so close, you can't tell me you cannot see the Capitol.

it could also be argued to Congress - look how completely nutty and a waste of time to do this every time someone bumbles into the air space.

Not completely useless, from the looks of some of them this is the first exercise they've gotten in while.

 

[corjulo]

Gee, Dave, I don't know, but blowing them away just seems a bit extreme here in the land of the free. We go to war against people that treat their citizens that way, remember?

"So, little Timmy, why were your Daddy and 5 year old sister shot down and executed?" "Well, Daddy got lost, and gave Dave a bad name." "Well, I guess your dad and criminal wench sister got what they had coming... can't have folks going around giving others a bad name!"

Joe, If a driver blows past a well marked police roadblock then chances are their going to get killed. In fact people have been killed. These guys were OVER the Capital. They had gone WAY WAY to far. I think the government deserves credit for not firing on them. I think your elected representatives deserve credit for an orderly and efficient evacuation. It isn't about fear, its about not being stupid and following directions. Oh, and Joe, my brother was one of those "cowards" who evacuated.

And lets stop this nonsense talk that a small plane can't do some damage. You could pack three or even four hundred pounds of explosive on a 172. 400 hundred pounds of Permacord can do some serious serious damage.

 

[poadeleted3]

Joe, If a driver blows past a well marked police roadblock then chances are their going to get killed. In fact people have been killed. These guys were OVER the Capital. They had gone WAY WAY to far. I think the government deserves credit for not firing on them. I think your elected representatives deserve credit for an orderly and efficient evacuation. It isn't about fear, its about not being stupid and following directions. Oh, and Joe, my brother was one of those "cowards" who evacuated.

And lets stop this nonsense talk that a small plane can't do some damage. You could pack three or even four hundred pounds of explosive on a 172. 400 hundred pounds of Permacord can do some serious serious damage.

Given your political leanings, I fail to be surprised that you would also advocate murdering men, women, and children for a crime that amounts to trespassing to further government control of the citizenry.

Our elected leaders did not evacuate in an orderly fashion. They ran in fear, scared to their bones of a craft that cannot, despite your weak attempts to claim otherwise, cause serious damage. They ran and disgraced this nation with their lack of backbone and outright cowardice. All of them deserve scorn. They are supposed to be leaders of the United States of America, and they wet their drawers when they hear a prop.

Now, you'd better head for the basement. jThe sky is falling in the form of a 152 carrying hundreds and hundreds of pounds of high explosives.

 

[poadeleted20]

Are you referencing the 172 that landed on the White House lawn...I thought that was a fairly controlled landing.

First, that, too, was a 150 -- trend? Second, it was a suicide, and was not a "controlled landing." The airplane piled up at the base of the wall, killing the pilot and some shrubbery.

 

[corjulo]

Given your political leanings, I fail to be surprised that you would also advocate murdering men, women, and children for a crime that amounts to trespassing to further government control of the citizenry.

Our elected leaders did not evacuate in an orderly fashion. They ran in fear, scared to their bones of a craft that cannot, despite your weak attempts to claim otherwise, cause serious damage. They ran and disgraced this nation with their lack of backbone and outright cowardice. All of them deserve scorn. They are supposed to be leaders of the United States of America, and they wet their drawers when they hear a prop.

Now, you'd better head for the basement. jThe sky is falling in the form of a 152 carrying hundreds and hundreds of pounds of high explosives.

OK Joe, If you where their with your wife and Kid, maybe touring the capital, You gonna stand there and lecture your kid on not being a *****. Well, good for you. Me, I'm doing what the cops tell be to do.

One thing is certain. It would prove Darwin was right.

 

[poadeleted20]

It was a student with his instructor.

There are two pilots named Sheaffer in Lilitz PA -- both Pvt-ASEL; no flight instructors by that name anywhere.

 

[fgcason]

Actually, maybe that would help pilots pay more attention ? Apparently, certificate suspensions &/or fines don't for a lot of pilots.

I agree with Rev Ron completely on this.

Sometimes I wonder about the the pilots involved in the ADIZ busts. I'm reasonably sure most pilots by now should know the ADIZ is there. I get the impression they know it's 'in that direction over there so don't go there' but don't really know where 'there' actually is or the procedures in that area, etc. I can see clipping incidents. They're inexcusable but not totally unrealistic. The fly in and blunder around types until they're on the national news is completely out of line. If you're lost and blundering in that general direction or don't have complete no question authorization to enter, just put the bottom of your DG on the top and sort it out all day long if you need to without getting everyone involved.

I got the once over at work about this while not knowing this even happened today. I get to bring everyone up to speed on this tomorrow - again. The whole way home I kept thinking I'm tired of taking the heat for these idiots. While it should not be necessary in the least, since at least some of us can't learn and this is so serious for the continued GA ops in this country, there needs to be a mass mailing sent to every single pilot in this country, (even if it's someone in Alaska that doesn't even know the lower 48 exists) with ADIZ procedures and how to and how NOT to. 3-4 pages should give a decent chart exerpt and basic procedures and more than enough phone numbers and websites to get up to date specifics. It won't stop the general idiots who act like auto drivers but it just might help those who are trying to do right and are still busting by accident.

Sigh.

Frank.

FWIW: I'm not likely to be around there anytime soon but if I get in that area, I'll do my homework THEN if go around wide is impractical, I'm stopping short and calling one of you locals for advice or ride along if necessary. I will NOT be in the evening news with ADIZ associated with it because short of full blown 91.3 it's completely avoidable.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

That guy was no Mathias Rust...

Ya know, I was equally impressed with what I thought was a spectacular landing feat. But then I stood in Red Square and looked at the landing flight path. Piece of cake. Slight dog leg left after clearing the cathedral at the opening to Red Square, but plenty of nice, brick paved landing from that point onward.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

There are two pilots named Sheaffer in Lilitz PA -- both Pvt-ASEL; no flight instructors by that name anywhere.

According to Phil Boyer (CNN interview this evening), the pilot was out of aviation a long, long time and had just returned. If the story continues in that direction there is a CFI who needs his back side properly addressed. How does one go about giving a BFR at Smoketown, PA (ADIZ is ~ 20 minutes away by C150) without mentioning ADIZ reality & procedures?

 

[gibbons]

and the guy that gave him his BFR...

That's "Flight Review".

 

[poadeleted20]

Ya know, I was equally impressed with what I thought was a spectacular landing feat. But then I stood in Red Square and looked at the landing flight path. Piece of cake. Slight dog leg left after clearing the cathedral at the opening to Red Square, but plenty of nice, brick paved landing from that point onward.

The only way I ever expected to see Red Square was through a bomb sight. Anyway, the landing wasn't the issue -- skirting the wall of SA-10's on the Baltic Coast and the ring of SA-5's around Moscow was. 'Course, if they hadn't taken so much crap in the international arena over splashing KAL 007 four years earlier, they probably would have splashed Rust, too.

 

[poadeleted3]

OK Joe, If you where their with your wife and Kid, maybe touring the capital, You gonna stand there and lecture your kid on not being a *****. Well, good for you. Me, I'm doing what the cops tell be to do.

One thing is certain. It would prove Darwin was right.

Some interesting things about me, Dan. I've faced down rioting crowds in New Guinea (which I just misspelled, I'm sure) with one other person at my side. I've faced down rioting crowds in the Phillipines, I've faced down a mob of really angry striking steel workers by myself. I've been shot at, stabbed... been scared many a time, but I've never turned tale and run. I'm scared silly of heights, but I didn't let it stop me from rock climbing, rappalling, sky diving, and now flying. You say running would prove Darwin was right. I'd be waving at your retreating back, and know what else was proved. With my son by my side. I refuse to raise a coward. My boy will never run from an enemy of this nation, nor will I. That's just not what a man does, IMHO. And neither should the leaders who voted to send our men and women to war.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

According to Phil Boyer (CNN interview this evening), the pilot was out of aviation a long, long time and had just returned. If the story continues in that direction there is a CFI who needs his back side properly addressed. How does one go about giving a BFR at Smoketown, PA (ADIZ is ~ 20 minutes away by C150) without mentioning ADIZ reality & procedures?

Not impossible, but not likely about the CFI.

A BFR is good for the day it's given. After that, it's as good as the pilot.

Reading charts with big ol' diagrams & such being a big bother is more likely.

 

[poadeleted3]

According to Phil Boyer (CNN interview this evening), the pilot was out of aviation a long, long time and had just returned. If the story continues in that direction there is a CFI who needs his back side properly addressed. How does one go about giving a BFR at Smoketown, PA (ADIZ is ~ 20 minutes away by C150) without mentioning ADIZ reality & procedures?

Comcast News (I don't know where they get their feed) says the guys were navigating "by looking out the window." No blaming GPS or heads inside there. Supposedly the student pilot was talking to his wife about how they planned to avoid certain restricted airspace by flying between two of them. I'm assuming he was talking about the ADIZ and P40. If so, I saw plenty of landmarks to guide me when I went between them on my way to Charleston last month. I'd love to know how they got that lost.

 

[mdreger]

I'm with the stand our ground group. I don't think we need more fliers, pamphlets, powerpoint presentations, or any thing else. What we need is to get rid of the ADIZ. We need to get rid of the surprise TFR's. We need to get rid of the NFZ around D.C. We need to open up the D.C. airports to all American Citizens. The longer we continue with this sniveling and cowering the more definitive the terrorists victory.

Every day that these unreasonable restrictions continue is another nail in the coffin of freedom. We need a President, and Congress to emulate Franklin D. Roosevelt and advise the nation that "we have nothing to fear, but fear itself".

 

[Alan]

I am weary of the idiocy of some pilots. I may make a mistake, but it will NOT be violating the FRZ, of this you can be sure. I am weary of inattentive pilots giving the rest of us a bad name. The majority of pilots check for TFR's and would never commit such a blunder.

We live and fly in a new world. Many want us grounded. Not just from DC, but around the country. This CFI (if you can call him that) has cost us all. The pols and beauracrats are not going to continue to run from idiot pilots. They will simply take us out of the air.

There must be serious consequences.

 

[AdamZ]

Just caught the late news NBC 10 In Philly says plane was out of Smoketown. Said 35 yo student pilot was flying to an airshow with his 70 yo instructor. New says Students name was Troy Martin and Instructor was Jim Schaffer. They flew out of the "Vintage Aero Club" @ Smoketown hanger B. The interviewed the airport owner Mr. Glick and a rep of the club. Ed or Jim either of you know these guys. There goes that Instructors ticket.

 

[ErikU]

I look forward to the "I Learned About Flying From That" and the "Never Again" articles. Should be good stuff! ha

 

[SkyHog]

You know, since I have never flown around the ADIZ, I have to wonder, when you get a briefing, does the briefer mention the TFR around the DC area? Even if its something like a recording that says "Inform the briefer you have the Washington TFR"

 

[inav8r]

As the attached screen capture from the AOPA home page shows, the timing of this incident couldn't be more ironic.

And now the story, "Congressional pressure builds to fix ADIZ" is gone from the AOPA homepage... Probably any hopes of getting it fixed are gone as well...

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Supposedly the student pilot was talking to his wife about how they planned to avoid certain restricted airspace by flying between two of them. I'm assuming he was talking about the ADIZ and P40.

Could be the conversation had nothing to do with ADIZ & P-40. For those of us who flew N/S through DC airspace years ago, that conversation referred to running the slot between two restricted areas south of DC; one over Patuxent and one just to the west.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

You know, since I have never flown around the ADIZ, I have to wonder, when you get a briefing, does the briefer mention the TFR around the DC area? Even if its something like a recording that says "Inform the briefer you have the Washington TFR"

IME, yes. Even if you say, "Familiar", the briefer will continue until you demonstrate in some manner that you really are familiar.

 

[Frank Browne]

Bill the pilot for expenses.

Good idea. I wonder how much it costs to scramble 2 F-16s and a Blackhawk, not to mention all other costs? That would have to hurt the wallet.

 

[judypilot]

On the bright side, it disrupted the fed govt for awhile. That can't be all bad.

Judy