Fox News Reports Plane Violated DC No Fly Zone

AdamZ said:
Just caught the late news NBC 10 In Philly says plane was out of Smoketown. Said 35 yo student pilot was flying to an airshow with his 70 yo instructor. New says Students name was Troy Martin and Instructor was Jim Schaffer.
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Bad reportage. "Jim" Sheaffer is a 69-y/o PP-ASEL, and if you search the database, you'll find him in Lilitz PA under his full name (not "James"). Later reports this morning in the Baltimore Sun, notoriously inaccurate in aviation reportage in the past, got it right: Sheaffer was PIC but not an instructor; Martin was just along for the ride. Both Sheaffer and Martin were released after questioning by law enforcement, but I suspect Sheaffer will be getting a letter from the FAA in a couple of weeks.
 
NickDBrennan said:
You know, since I have never flown around the ADIZ, I have to wonder, when you get a briefing, does the briefer mention the TFR around the DC area? Even if its something like a recording that says "Inform the briefer you have the Washington TFR"
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Yes, you get that. No way you can get a briefing from any FSS anywhere in the country that involves flight anywhere near DC without getting a mention of the special NOTAMs for the area. All DUATS briefings anywhere near there also get the NOTAMs appended. Now, they may just ask if you're familiar with the restrictions, and a really brain-dead pilot might say "yes" without actually being familiar, but the question will be asked by the briefer.
 
Around here, all of the FSS's have an announcement on the ADIZ first thing on the recording after their name (before you get the menu of phone options). The only time it's not first is when there's a TFR in the area.

Hmmm....that's just for Milville. Williamsport (which I just tried calling from work) doesn't have that announcement up front. These guys would have gotten Williamsport.
 
I haven't read this entire thread but a news nerd made a comment this morning I had to shake my head at.

"They were navigating with something like a rand mcnally road atlas map and a ruler"

The tone of voice was the reporter thought that was incredibly stupid. I take it they were using a sectional and a map line, possibly with a VOR.
 
Coupla points here.....

A propo the mild panic, the people on the ground didn't know it was a C150. All they knew was that an airplane had entered the area and was headed for the capital. Wouldn't you be for getting the heII out of Dodge based on that info?

Second, is it possible that they correctly set up the handheld GPS frpm Smoketown to Lumbertown with waypoints along the way including a fuel stop not entered as a stop? IOW, the entire trip as one flight. Then after takeoff, inadvertantly hit the direct to button and the GPS discarded all the waypoints.
 
Ron Levy said:
First, that, too, was a 150 -- trend? Second, it was a suicide, and was not a "controlled landing." The airplane piled up at the base of the wall, killing the pilot and some shrubbery.
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Just read the article posted above from the time of the incident which refreshed my memory cells. Maybe it was a steel magnolia.

What ever happened to Mr Rust?

Len
 
Word out at S37 is that they did not have a GPS. There has been some interesting speculation, and I do repeat speculation, that they thought they were flying an old VFR corridor that would have existed before the ADIZ.

Apparently, it had been more than a year and a half since the pilot had flown out of S37, as he needed help using the gas pumps that Mel updated about 1 and 1/2 to 2 years ago.

Sigh.

Jim G
 
So what will the FAA likely do to the PIC of this flight, the 69 year old PPL? How long will his license be suspended? 6 months? One year? Permanently?

If you were the FAA would you pull his ticket permanently?
 
What would I do if I were the FAA?

10 hours remedial training - concentrating on charts and pilotage, MAYBE with a 709 ride at the end. No suspension.
 
Anthony said:
So what will the FAA likely do to the PIC of this flight, the 69 year old PPL? How long will his license be suspended? 6 months? One year? Permanently?

If you were the FAA would you pull his ticket permanently?
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By this point, permanently. If he didn't know about the ADIZ, he should have. There is no excuse for a PIC to violate the ADIZ at this point, but this guy didn't just clip it, he flew through it right into the FRZ. I think the FAA needs to start making some very public examples.

Still need to get rid of the ADIZ, though. It serves only as a tool for the scared to control the citizenry.
 
It is my opinion that he'll get a slightly stricter version of whatever anyone else gets for straying into the FRZ.
 
Anthony said:
So what will the FAA likely do to the PIC of this flight, the 69 year old PPL? How long will his license be suspended? 6 months? One year? Permanently?

If you were the FAA would you pull his ticket permanently?
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Yes, I'd pull his ticket permanently. The folks working in DC are not going to continue to run in panic whether or not their fear is warranted. The FRZ is likely to grow yet again to allow more time to get ther attention of the pilot. If a C150 got within 3 miles at 100 mph, a Mooney would be throught the airspace and out the other side before an intercept could be completed. I don't theink that they want to shoot anyone down, so they make the FRZ yet larger.

I am astounded that any Easter US pilot isn't aware of the DC FRZ. And, concerned enough about it the he KNOWS where he is without hoping to see the Washington Monument before he hits it.
 
Don't be surprised if the FAA pulls it for good. Just like Bob Hoover.

I don't know what the truth is on this piece of the story, but the AP report in our local rag this morning reported that officials said he had "old" aviation charts that didn't have the ADIZ and FRZ on it. They also reported that the folks told the federales that they didn't have to alter course because it was OK for them to be there. I find that highly suspect, but the fact is that the media is painting it that way.

The bureaucrats may feel that they have no choice on this. Just like some of the medical stuff. "Yes, Congressman Blowhard, it won't happen again".

AOPA has removed from their main page both the intrusion story and the story that was immediately below (you know, the one about congress urging that ADIZ restrictions be lifted).

As a pilot, I'd like to see a strong message sent to these guys. Make 'em pay for the entire cost of the operation yesterday.
 
spoke to my Uncle this morning, also a pilot - he said they should thank this pilot, now they know the system is working. haha

sigh.
 
grattonja said:
I sure agree with your post. Any action by government against terrorists, which treats a Cessna 150 with two people on it, a plane incapable of carrying any real cargo, as a genuine terrorist threat, is action proving the terrorists have won. We are wasting government money and time chasing minor ADIZ/FRZ incursions, and our leaders look silly every time they "duck and cover" over a cessna incursion.

It's time to re-think this whole issue.

Jim G
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So then. Write a editorial letter. I work at a Newspaper and I can guarantee you it WILL get published. The more pilots that write the more space the subject will get. Don't use a form letter or copy paste someone else's letter. That kind of stuff happen all the time and we hate it. After that, read the news articles, if you see mistakes call the reporter and NICELY AND POLITELY point out the errors. Tell the reporter you would be happy to be a source for aviation information in the future. Then call him in the future if you have any positive stories on aviation. Develop a relationship. If the story was a wire story then call the news department and ask for the wire editor. Do the same with him or her. Tell him or her you would rather talk to them then to the reader representative or ombudsmen (usually a complete waste of time). BE NICE.

Dan
 
woodstock said:
spoke to my Uncle this morning, also a pilot - he said they should thank this pilot, now they know the system is working. haha

sigh.
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I heard the same thing from George Stephanapolous this morning in a blurb he does every week. They don't get it.

What they don't realize is that it DOESN'T work. The plane was doing 100kts? What happens when someone WITH bad intentions jumps in a 200kt plane with some cargo capacity? And decides to do it legitimately...THEN stray off course which would be a surefire way to avoid interception before completing their mission.

We can't react fast enough in that situation.

I don't know what the best solution is. I do know that the one we're seeing now isn't for security...it's for public relations.
 
My favorite news quote about this (from the AP):

Police, rushing to get House Minority leader Nancy Pelosi out of the building, lifted her out of her shoes.
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I was thinking about this yesterday after explaining the background to a dozen co-workers, and everyone always focuses on the explosive potential, or kinetic impact potential of the plane as the risk. After explaining that a Cessna 150 has less payload capacity than the average small hatchback, most people were wondering what the feds were so worried about.

Now while I don't want to give the feds any reason to make our lives more difficult, what if the plane had been carrying 100 pounds of anthrax spores ? Having seen the chaos caused by a dusting of white powder shortly after 9/11, what if the plane flew around DC dropping pound bags of the stuff ? I've not seen that possibility discussed on CNN or similar, but surely THAT is the nightmare scenario from a small plane perspective ?

As for the pilots, I kind of agree with one of the previous posters, a communication needs to be sent out to EVERY pilot/student/instructor/FBO/Flight School etc in the country, "These are the rules. These are the procedures you MUST follow to find out what is in YOUR area at any given time." Failure to follow that procedure should then become a much more serious matter. While the AOPA has done wonders in informing it's members, not every pilot/owner is a member.
 
Steve,

Agreed. Time for the FAA to put out a nice glossy newsletter on TFR's and the ADIZ to ALL pilots.
 
Arrrrgh!:mad: This is a real two sided sword! The ADIZ is a waste in my opinion. OTOH how can this guy not have know how deep in he was? While I think the ADIZ is a waste every pilot in America should write this guy and thank him for Scr#%ing up our chance at having the ADIZ done away with or shrunk or something at least for the foreseeable future.

This subject is ripe for a political cartoon!
 
SJP said:
Now while I don't want to give the feds any reason to make our lives more difficult, what if the plane had been carrying 100 pounds of anthrax spores ? Having seen the chaos caused by a dusting of white powder shortly after 9/11, what if the plane flew around DC dropping pound bags of the stuff ? I've not seen that possibility discussed on CNN or similar, but surely THAT is the nightmare scenario from a small plane perspective ?
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And aside from the potential to be shot down, how would that differ from the same terrorists "distributing" anthrax by ground vehicle. Heck, they could probably get near or inside the White House and/or Capitol on foot and leave plenty of "dust" in their wake without even getting caught.
 
Just another observation that another pilot here at work made - even assuming the pilot wasn't familiar with the ADIZ. How could they not have been familiar with the Class B airspace in that area ?

Flying out of Pontiac MI, (PTK), we know that if you fly south, you better stay below 4000FT, preferably 3000FT, as Detroit (DTW) Class B is only about 10 miles south. Flying north, you make sure you keep a bit to the East to avoid Flint's (FNT) class C. Flight following is almost always available from Detroit, Lansing (LAN) or Flint, and any turn to the South from PTK usually gets a comment from the PTK tower about flight following from Detroit, or about the Class B...

Looking at the Jepp chart of D.C. that someone attached - Take off, fly SSE, keep the river in the right window until you get to KNHK or there abouts, then head South West ? Seems that that would keep you clear of most of the Class Bs, if not the D.C. ADIZ itself ? It certainly would appear to keep you out of the centre NoFlyZone.
 
AdamZ said:
Arrrrgh!:mad: This is a real two sided sword! The ADIZ is a waste in my opinion. OTOH how can this guy not have know how deep in he was? While I think the ADIZ is a waste every pilot in America should write this guy and thank him for Scr#%ing up our chance at having the ADIZ done away with or shrunk or something at least for the foreseeable future.

This subject is ripe for a political cartoon!
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I thought all of us at the airports adjacent to the ADIZ and FRZ knew about this stupid airspace. I know some of the folks who only fly locally don't know the full procedure, but they know it is there and to avoid it. The EAA guys are being quoted as saying the plans for this trip were discussed at a meeting. Surely they must have talked about this airspace issue. Some of the local EAA pilots in the organization are quite active flyers. Heck, I thought we all knew to either fly down the coast and deal with the restricted areas only, or go WAY west to avoid the central VA airspace.

I will be asking the local gurus at S37 to do some local instructional meeting about the ADIZ. I seem to recall a printout up on the wall there, prominently, discussing the airspace and it's implications. Guess we need to review again.

Getting a briefing, and paying attention, solves the knowledge problem. The live briefers from Williamsport FSS always mention the ADIZ, in my experience. And DUATS carries the notams. Granted, they are obtuse, but they are there. I try to remember to always look to make sure nothing has changed.

Of course, AOPA keeps us all advised as well. I consider that the best $40 I spend every year, and it is stock advice that I always give student pilots.

If you go on that long a trip without a briefing, you are in violation of the regs. If you don't have current sectionals, you are in violation.

But, worst of all, I cannot imagine not turning around the minute I saw a blackhawk in my face. At that point, I would want to land anyway to get dry pants on :D

Again, I thought that those of us who live and fly near this airspace had plenty of forewarning.

Sigh.

Jim G
 
lancefisher said:
And aside from the potential to be shot down, how would that differ from the same terrorists "distributing" anthrax by ground vehicle. Heck, they could probably get near or inside the White House and/or Capitol on foot and leave plenty of "dust" in their wake without even getting caught.
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Oh, I'm not saying it is any different to a ground based delivery. I have taken a number of people to task in the past on the subject of aircraft attacks vs car/truck based attacks.

My point is that I don't believe the feds are as stupid as we'd like to make out, and they have to understand that a Cessna 150 poses no threat as a kinetic weapon, or explosize delivery device. Anything big enough to pose a threat in that mode would also be capable of speeds far faster than the system's ability to react to. The only threat mode I can reasonably see them entertaining is as a chemical/biological/nuclear delivery platform, and even that is a stretch.

I personally believe the TFRs and ADIZ are nothing more than devices designed to be used to show the public that the government is doing something, when in reality, the feds know as well as we do that there IS no easy way to defend against another 9/11 type attack, any more than they can defend against someone putting 15 tonnes of C-4 into a U-Haul and driving up Constitution Avenue.

The NASCAR Nation yesterday were treated to a media spectacle where a unknown plane that could have been carrying a couple thousand pounds of explosive almost got to the WhiteHouse, save for the quick thinking of the Feds and our military. Had we not spent all this money and so on, the WhiteHouse could have been a smoking hole in the ground just like 9/11 all over again. Stay scared, the terrorists are still out there, do what the government says, pay your taxes, and we'll keep you safe...

:D
 
gibbons said:
Oh GREAT! CNN is going on and on about how easy it is to get onto GA airports and take an airplane. Not enough security according to their "expert". MSNBC is discussing how many airplanes are flying around without flight plans and nobody is tracking them. Their "expert" is calling for more regulation.

Hang him high.
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If it wasnt for bad pub, we would get no pub at all... Phil Boyer is sharpening his sword as we speak.
 
the thing is, "they" can only get us into a pickle if we let them. more lobbying and I'll vote against anyone who restricts our freedoms even more.
 
There has never been a VFR corridor through the BaltoWash B-space that leads over the Capitol Building. There was one going down between Dulles and National below 3000, but that's now part of the FRZ, and it's 15 miles west of where they went. There's another B-space avoidance option that involves going over Martin State and then down the west side of the Bay which is still available if you comply with ADIZ procedures, but that's even farther from the Capitol area than the old north-south corridor. So there's just no explanation that holds water on that account unless his sectional pre-dates the Tri-Area TCA, and that would be more than 30 years ago.

As for sanctions, the "standard" sanction for ADIZ penetration is 120 days, with some leniency down to 60 days if your story is good enough. However, I expect more here given the fact that he got to the middle of the FRZ, although it might be hard to make a case for revocation. Also, given some of the statements attributed to the pilot, I expect a 709 ride which he is most unlikely to pass. Finally, I expect a serious inquisition of the instructor who signed his last flight review, which should serve as a warning to all us CFI's about being careful how we conduct and document flight reviews and IPC's.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I hope the continual false alarms happen more often, and they decide the no-fly zone is ridiculous, get tired of it and completely do away with it.

If I was a person working there I would just accept the tiny risk and live with it.

"Take our skies back" Dave
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Unfortunately it will likely go the other way- ADS-B for everyone and all of CONUS becomes Class B. If this must happen, I've been promoting Government Furnished Equipment on all aircraft. The positive unintended consequence would be total automation of commercial aviation and ATC, eliminating the user fee question and enforcement questions. Of course the FAA won't like losing their empire and becoming another FCC . . .
 
Dave Krall CFII said:
You're reading way more into it than I ever wrote Joe.

But until a violated TFR is eliminated legally, if some F16 pilot doing their job for all us citizens does blow away some daddy from our USA that can't navigate that well to avoid a TFR, I don't have much problem with it. Except that ideally the situation shouldn't exist in the first place, niether the TFR nor the violation by the GA pilot.

As long as the F16 is obeying the law and paying attention and the pilot isn't paying attention and breaking a law or reg, I say after so many years of this BS since 911, then they deserve it. It's a miracle it hasn't happened already.
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It hasn't happened already because all pilots, including those flying F-16s, know that there is no real threat and the TFRs/ADIZ are nonsense. The Air Force quit flying continental CAP missions some time back. Most of those on the ground in control of response actions also know this, although I must say the governor in his Baron came really close to getting the button pushed. The Secret Service had several opportunities to employ their missiles, at Camp David and the White House, but never have, choosing to allow overflights by errant aircraft/ultralights even with the president present.

But it is grist for the political mill, and will likely get worse. What I don't understand is how a president who is also a pilot and now a lame duck can sit by and allow this nonsense to be inflicted on his fellow airmen.
 
Was our president ever a General Aviation pilot? I got the sense that he was military-only.
 
My nominee for most accurate aviation explanation of the day (from the Lancaster New Era ):

Lancaster pilot and Vintage Aero Club secretary John Henderson, 71, said he’s sure Sheaffer and Martin knew they were not supposed to be flying over Washington D.C.

“I’m certain he didn’t know (he was that close to the capital). I’d bet money on that. I think they got lost, which is not difficult to do.”

Henderson said he knows both men and speculated that they just made a dumb mistake by not taking a global positioning system device on the plane.

“GPS makes life so simple for a pilot,’’ he said. “It also depicts restricted airspace.”

But it is up to the individual pilot to take the GPS device along. The club does not have a GPS device for its members to use.

However, the Cessna is equipped with a VOR receiver, a type of navigational radio that receives a signal from a ground-based radio transmitter, said Henderson.

The VOR gives the pilot the ability to determine whether or not he is on course. But the device does not tell the pilot where he is on that course.
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That explanation of a VOR is probably the most accurate and most concise that I've seen. It's better than some things I've read in aviation magazines and textbooks.
 
MSmith said:
Was our president ever a General Aviation pilot? I got the sense that he was military-only.
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While I believe he rode around on more than a few corporate jets, I'm pretty sure his pilot experience is strictly military. He is not in the pilot database.
 
a shootdown also hasn't happened likely because there isn't really any area around here where you will not inflict substantial damage to those on the ground. now, up near P40 it's all woods and farms.
 
woodstock said:
a shootdown also hasn't happened likely because there isn't really any area around here where you will not inflict substantial damage to those on the ground. now, up near P40 it's all woods and farms.
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I hate to say it, but you hit a Cessna 150 with a Sidewinder, and I'm not sure there would be anything bigger than a match book left to inflict damage to those on the ground ;)
 
MSmith said:
My nominee for most accurate aviation explanation of the day (from the Lancaster New Era ):

Lancaster pilot and Vintage Aero Club secretary John Henderson, 71, said he’s sure Sheaffer and Martin knew they were not supposed to be flying over Washington D.C.

“I’m certain he didn’t know (he was that close to the capital). I’d bet money on that. I think they got lost, which is not difficult to do.”

Henderson said he knows both men and speculated that they just made a dumb mistake by not taking a global positioning system device on the plane.

“GPS makes life so simple for a pilot,’’ he said. “It also depicts restricted airspace.”

But it is up to the individual pilot to take the GPS device along. The club does not have a GPS device for its members to use.

However, the Cessna is equipped with a VOR receiver, a type of navigational radio that receives a signal from a ground-based radio transmitter, said Henderson.

The VOR gives the pilot the ability to determine whether or not he is on course. But the device does not tell the pilot where he is on that course.




That explanation of a VOR is probably the most accurate and most concise that I've seen. It's better than some things I've read in aviation magazines and textbooks.
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They got Lost?! I ran the flight planner. On a direct from S37 to Washington, they flew almost directly over BWI. "Uh, let's see if we can find that big airport right there on the Washington Sectional. Let's see, that's, uh, ... oh s--t, we better turn around."

I get lost in the Colorado mountains, where one mountain pass looks like the next to me. That's part of the reason I take a CFI along. But we on the east coast have an airport about every ten miles or so to help us along. Bigger ones like BWI for instance.

I would, personally, not want to go into the ADIZ without more than a nav/com and a transponder. But, you need to know where you are no matter what you use. And, when the blackhawk comes up beside you, time to turn around. Really.

Jim G
 
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