formation flying?

Peter Ha

Peter Ha

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Hey folks,
Looking to fly with buddy with my C150. He has a C172.
What are some tips, rules, recommendations?
How do we communicate during flight? Is there separate frequencies for peer-to-peer comm? Cell phones? Dipping wings? Flashing Nav lights? :rolleyes:
 
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I think 122.75 is the air to air frequency.

My hangar neighbor suggested we do a flight of 2. He’s done it before. I too am looking for pointers.
 
I'd not learn to fly formation from an internet board.
Ride with someone that has done it a lot.

Brief everything on the ground. What are you going to do if your iPad tells you there is traffic, you look down at it and look back up and don't see your buddy?
Where are you going to go?
 
There's a group that flies a gaggle (if you can call over 100 planes a gaggle) of Cessnas to Oshkosh every year. They hold formation clinics. A really good idea.

If not, brief everything before hand. Route, speed, separation, everything. Lead ship gets comms and transponder. Wingman does one and only one thing. Stays on lead. Decide how tight you want the formation, I'd say really loose to start. You taxi out together, he launches, then you launch after. Remember, if he turns away from you, you turn wide and will have to speed up. If he turns toward you, you have to slow down. Like I said, brief everything. Formation is fun, but lots of guys have died doing it.
 
Maybe I need to clarify not “formation” but flying together to same destination? :)
 
Keep separated by a mile on your ADS-B. You're the slow one - go in lead and he'll adjust speed accordingly.
 
I've got no tips for you unfortunately, but i'm reminded of a fun and memorable flight. I flew along once in a friend's 172 leading a flight of 2 through the Richmond ARSA (or was it a TRSA?) The other guy was an F-15 pilot by day flying his Pitts Special. He was so much faster than us that he was doing aerobatics off our wing when outside of the busy airspace and at a safe distance of course
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'd not learn to fly formation from an internet board.
Ride with someone that has done it a lot.

Brief everything on the ground. What are you going to do if your iPad tells you there is traffic, you look down at it and look back up and don't see your buddy?
Where are you going to go?
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This is very good advice. There are a lot of ways to screw up formation flight, leading to bad things. There are a lot of considerations for both the lead aircraft and wingman (or wingmen) and more than a cursory review of training materials is advised.

The starting point for most formation flying is the T-34 formation flight manual, which seems to be out of print. An internet search will turn up most of the information.
 
Ideally, find someone who has formation experience to fly with the guy in the #2 airplane. Flying lead in a 2-ship formation on a point-to-point flight is pretty easy; the wingman has the hard job of staying in position. "Formation" flying isn't something to be done lightly and without some real training. It's not impossibly difficult, but it's not easy either and the stakes are pretty high.

This has some pretty good guidance in it, but again, you can't beat having someone in the plane who has been through real training:

http://flyfast.org/sites/all/docs/FAST_FKG_2.0.pdf
 
I wouldn't do it Peter unless you and the other people have trained and decided how to handle things before your flight. I've done it once a long time ago, spur of the moment thing, but after reading about a few accidents I was woefully unprepared.

Flying together some where is different, unless you fly closely together, then see above.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What are you going to do if your iPad tells you there is traffic, you look down at it and look back up and don't see your buddy?
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Unless you are formation lead, you don't look at your iPad. Traffic or not.

What happens when trailing aircraft do what they are supposed to do: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Thunderbirds_Indian_Springs_Diamond_Crash

On the other hand, when "trail" is doing something other than the one and only thing that trail does - watch the lead and maintain separation:

 
You need to be properly trained in multi-ship operations before embarking on this. As others have stated, the planning and rehearsing on the ground is what will save your bacon when in the air. Most importantly, every PC in the flight has to be on the SAME SHEET OF MUSIC (read: SOP), know what they're supposed to do, and when they're supposed to do it. Planning for contingencies (lost commo, IIMC, nav error, downed aircraft, Mx, etc.) as well as assigned duties throughout the flight are paramount.

I contemplated attaching some SOPs that address multi-ship operations, but decided against it. They are written for folks who are already trained.

Your better bet is "same way, same day." Give yourself 5-minute separation, or something to that affect.
 
Formation flying has inherent risks that should be mitigated by training specific to the task from people who know how to teach it and help mitigate some of those risks.

Please don’t just hop in two airplanes with two pilots with no training. It’s a dumb way to die or kill a friend.
 
For true formation flying definitely get some training on proper procedures before doing it, and also ensure your other formation pilot is similarly trained. I got trained by an airline pilot who was also flew unlimited aerobatics as a hobby. We did some formation flights with my AA1A and his Pitts. It's trickier than it looks and requires considerable concentration to stay safe.

For just flying with a friend to a destination, just stay 1/2 mile or more in trail and keep the lead plane within sight at all times. If you get more than two miles in trail, you may lose sight of the lead plane. The biggest challenge is coordinating airspeed. it helps if the lead plane is slower, then it's easier for the trail plane to adjust. Or just agree on maximum airspeed. We did a massive in-trail flight to honor a very ill but much beloved pilot from our airport. We had about 50 airplanes in trail fly over his home and rock wings on a nice day. Everybody kept about 1/2 mile spacing, and it worked well and seemed quite safe. The lineup at the departure airport was very impressive!
 
There's formation flying and there's formation flying. The Blue Angels with overlapping wings are one thing, but a loose formation with hundreds of yards of separation is another thing entirely and be done with minimal risk. Where does "two planes going in the same direction" become "formation flying"?
 
WDD said:
Keep separated by a mile on your ADS-B. You're the slow one - go in lead and he'll adjust speed accordingly.
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This is what we did to Oshkosh. NFW am I flying closer than a mile to another plane without specific training.

We also stole from motorcyclists and I was diagonal behind my 'lead', giving me a turnout if I needed to get the hell away. It's VERY fatiguing to stay like that. After awhile the fun wore off and we ended up more like 5 miles apart going to the same airport and flying appx the same pink line on our ipads.

We were on air-to-air constantly. You run out of things to say after about 30 seconds, then it devolves into 'hey vern'. :D
 
Peter Ha said:
Hey folks,
Looking to fly with buddy with my C150. He has a C172.
What are some tips, rules, recommendations?
How do we communicate during flight? Is there separate frequencies for peer-to-peer comm? Cell phones? Dipping wings? Flashing Nav lights? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Best thing is to let your buddy takeoff first ... then catch up from behind and sneak into his 06:00 while screaming incoherently on the previously agreed upon 122.75 frequency.;)
 
Peter Ha said:
Maybe I need to clarify not “formation” but flying together to same destination? :)
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Both planes can launch...in time...quite closely. When the first is off give them time to climb out safely. Then you can launch. Here you will see the first irony...if both planes are relatively similar in speeds it will seem like it takes miles to even catch up to race other.

Definitely use 122.75 and not some made up one like 123.45, etc. But if your flight is short or you'll both be on flight following you'll find it hard to also be using 122.75 since you will also be using a second com for ATIS, etc.

If you are both on flight following one of you, ideally the second can also tell them about the first and you have the same destination but not a "Flight of 2". ATC will most likely advise you to maintain visual contact...or they do around here.

We like to agree on slightly staggered altitudes with the first a bit higher because it is like 1000x easier to see the guy ahead of you when hes above the horizon.

Our groups are at most 8 planes, not formation but same launch time and destination for events. We just always pass well to the side and tell the person being overtaken. We like to keep minimum distance when passing to about 1000ft. Good enough for some pictures but lots of room to wiggle.

We tried the slowest guy first but when these aren't true formations it doesnt work. Our resident 414 will launch last and always overtake. No way hes gonna mush at slower speeds. Then a Dakota and our 182 usually overtake the 172/150/Cherokee180 and slower planes. So the irony is we launch the slowest planes first.

Up to this part I haven't found anything that stressful. But no one actually talks that much on 122.75 which I thought would get used more.

The only stressful time we ran into was a airport with no taxiway and a long post landing back taxi. The first three of us managed to stagger our arrivals but all the slower planes arrived too close together so it was actually worse than a fly in with several planes doing pattern laps to get a landing cycle in.

Have fun. It's really cool to fly with other planes. Just talk it out first and in the end it's really just you PIC.

I wouldn't advise close formation flying.
 
When flying formation, even loose formation, the key is for the wingman to maintain eye contact with the lead ship AT ALL TIMES. The Wingman relies on the lead pilot to watch for traffic and obstacles while he maintains formation on the lead. The wingman can scan for a couple of seconds at a time, but then back to eye contact with the lead. If the wingman loses eye contact with the lead ship, he banks away and descends from the heading they were on, and then regroups talking to each other on 122.75. Flying formation as wingman, you need to trust the leader to avoid traffic and obstacles.

This was in November over Sedona with Jack Fleetwood. Jack was taking pictures and talking to me while his copilot was flying as leader. I was wingman. Notice I'm looking right at him.
3989cr1k_zpschmygwrn.jpg
 
Stan Cooper said:
When flying formation, even loose formation, the key is for the wingman to maintain eye contact with the lead ship AT ALL TIMES. The Wingman relies on the lead pilot to watch for traffic and obstacles while he maintains formation on the lead. The wingman can scan for a couple of seconds at a time, but then back to eye contact with the lead. If the wingman loses eye contact with the lead ship, he banks away and descends from the heading they were on, and then regroups talking to each other on 122.75. Flying formation as wingman, you need to trust the leader to avoid traffic and obstacles.
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Very nice picture.

Another thing to remember it's not just wing sees the lead but that there is a sight picture you're trying to keep. As an example, the wingtip light should be on the pilots head. If that picture changes you need to do something to correct it.
 
In a word - don't. Flying same way, same day is one thing, but formation flying is a totally different animal.

If you don't know what you are doing then you might kills somebody. Even if you DO know what you are doing, you might kill somebody. These guys fly together all the time. Both pilots were high time retired military jet guy.
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2019/05/vans-rv-4-n319rl-and-vans-rv-4-n203dd.html

"XXXX was a retired Air Force fighter pilot who instructed many pilots at the airpark. He said XXXXwas very by the book when it came to flying."
"XXXXX is a retired Navy pilot who flew in combat with the late Sen. John McCain. XXXXX flew combat missions in Vietnam off the USS Forrestal aircraft carrier."


https://www.news-journalonline.com/news/20191010/feds-to-spruce-creek-fly-in-formation-flights-risky

Should you chose to do so, put the most inexperienced person in the lead.
 
F.A.S.T. Get the training materials. They’re pretty cheap. BTW inexperienced leads are a very bad idea.
 
Stan Cooper said:
Jack was taking pictures and talking to me while his copilot was flying as leader. I was wingman. Notice I'm looking right at him.
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Indeed. Jack won't release a photo if it shows the pilot not looking at the camera.

Jack photographed my airplane at Sedona the same day as Stan. Here's a video. Notice the low sun causes trouble, too. There were some odd optical illusions I wasn't expecting.

 
ebetancourt said:
...[...]BTW inexperienced leads are a very bad idea.
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Please do share your thoughts.

In an ad-hock multiship flight I would want the least experienced guy up front. That way I don't have to worry about him climbing up my butt and I can make the adjustments when he make a tight turn rather than have him trying to jocky himself and praying that he was watching my aircraft (specifically a point on my aircraft) and not just eyeballing the world around him.

1024475b3b3b80ae64e068cb5a1ea2f0.jpg
 
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Peter, agreed with the others. Fly with someone that has done formation flying before. Make sure that everything is briefed on the ground and leave nothing to chance.

If you can wait on this idea, in October, there's a group with LSA's that converge at Page, AZ every year and they do group flights around the area. While not formation flying per se, they do brief on the ground and leave in manageable group sizes to allow aircraft safe distance to follow each other. Maybe ease into this formation flying thing, especially with aircraft that fly about the same speed as you do.
 
k9medic said:
Please do share your thoughts.

In an ad-hock multiship flight I would want the least experienced guy up front. That way I don't have to worry about him climbing up my butt and I can make the adjustments when he make a tight turn rather than have him trying to jocky himself and praying that he was watching my aircraft (specifically a point on my aircraft) and not just eyeballing the world around him.

1024475b3b3b80ae64e068cb5a1ea2f0.jpg
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I agree completely. Even though that’s exactly the opposite of what is done during military ops or say an experienced civilian flight demo team, it makes the most sense in this case. Unless the pilot acting as wingman has someone in their aircraft coaching them on position distances / angles etc, they really need to be lead. You just don’t know if that person is going to be overly cautious, or try and be Mr Blue Angel. I would caveat though, in that the wingman better have enough experience to make up for lead’s errors. While aluminum showers is a is a bad thing, you don’t want an airspace violation either.

Actually did that once for a funeral fly over. The other pilot asked who I wanted to be lead. With his 45 minutes of formation flying vs my probably 2,000 hrs, I chose him. Plus he’s a 135 guy and I know you all like to have your egos stroked so I thought lead would suit him. :D

514C83D4-C97E-4334-864C-E4A3BEBC3770.jpeg
 
k9medic said:
Please do share your thoughts.
SNIP
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First, to each his own. We all have different risk tolerances. My thoughts apply to me. I have been fortunate to fly formation in a lot of different aircraft, from a T-28 to a C-141, including T-38s, H-3s and H-1s along the way. So, yes, I am a former military pilot. That, by itself, is not adequate to go fly formation this afternoon.

I have tried to get some formation flying in for the last several years. No luck. I actually sent queries to everyone within 500nm that owned a YMF-5C/D a few years ago. The query was to get F.A.S.T. training not just go flying. Now considering selling to buy an aircraft that is used in formation flying a lot. (T-6, T-34).

Personally, I will not participate in a formation that is (1) not led by an experienced formation pilot, (2) begins with a formal briefing, and (3) where every cockpit has at least one pilot with current formation experience, preferably a F.A.S.T. card. Others can do whatever they want, it's (so far) a free country.
 
I appreciate what you’re saying.

All things being equal, I too would prefer having the most experienced guy leading me.

Unfortunately what usually happens is there are two experienced guys and a lesser experienced guy in the formation. In the GA world this may be somebody who is extremely low time as well.

My safety fallback for that is my own personal preservation. I guess it comes down to trust and quite frankly, I don’t trust a lot of folks.

Formation flying isn’t for beginners.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I had always heard most inexperienced guy up front as well. That way he just flys a speed he is comfortable with, looks out for traffic, handles radio calls. Basically it should almost be a normal flight, none of the stress about maintaining position, visual, adjusting speed for turns, etc. Of course I have only done this on sim, so my thoughts probably aren't valid.
 
I suggest signing up for a C2O clinic even if you don’t plan on going to Oshkosh. The cost of the clinic on formation flying was nothing compared to the quality training and the chance to get some real world experience in formation flying with folks that know what they are doing.

I flew in the Texas clinics both years that I took the training and can’t say enough good things about how Jerry and the group did leading the clinics.

Gary
 
The FAST card thing can be a bit of a self-licking ice cream cone, so forgive me for regarding my USAF wings to a higher degree than a de facto civilian "who's Who" club for the monied warbird crowd. To each their own indeed.

At any rate, that's one of the things I'm interested in dabbling in after retirement. Providing upset training and formation clinic work as a career tac trainer guy in the mil. Would be a good way to defray some aerobatic airplane costs (nothing says retirement like TWO airplanes LOL) while staying in the teaching side of things. Based on these posts, looks like there's some demand for the services, so more the better. Everybody stay safe out there!
 
The whole having the most experienced guy flying lead thing is primarily for complex formations with wingman already familiar with formation basics. That’s basically military or civilian aerobatic formation flying. It’s when lead must nail certain parameters (coms, nav, control touch, etc) or people could get killed.

Two dudes that have little or even no experience, put the guy who has none as lead. Lead would essentially be doing what they already know how to do as a single ship. Flying as dash 2 / chalk 2 for the first time isn’t the place to start with no instruction. While in my experience, the majority of first timers would rather be in another state vs in tight, you just don’t know. I’d rather not get struck from behind because that person is in way over their head. It’s not rocket science by any means but just a few hours of quality instruction would be a world of difference in safety / enjoyment.
 
Does anybody talk about transponder use in the brief? An example:

I was working for a 135 helicopter operator and a hurricane was bearing down. we assembled a couple dozen aircraft somewhere in the New Orleans area for re-po to Mobile. I was designated lead for 14 ships of all types. ALL pilots were former military. I briefed 1. Formation: trail, three rotor diameters interval, 2. Freq: Either ATC or company air to air at my direction. (Most only had one comm, I had two) 3. TRANSPONDER ON STANDBY UNTIL LEAVING FORMATION. My ride was a S-76. All were solo.
We departed and I hit ALT and HDG on my flight director, set power for 100KTS and kicked back.

Meanwhile the second flight departed at a 15 minute interval. I guess their flight lead skipped the transponder part. We passed through Gulfport OK. When Flt 2 checked in, Approach first climaxed, then had a meltdown. Any idea what it looks like on a radar scope when a dozen or more aircraft are all squawking the same assigned code and in formation?
 
Maxnr said:
Does anybody talk about transponder use in the brief? An example:

I was working for a 135 helicopter operator and a hurricane was bearing down. we assembled a couple dozen aircraft somewhere in the New Orleans area for re-po to Mobile. I was designated lead for 14 ships of all types. ALL pilots were former military. I briefed 1. Formation: trail, three rotor diameters interval, 2. Freq: Either ATC or company air to air at my direction. (Most only had one comm, I had two) 3. TRANSPONDER ON STANDBY UNTIL LEAVING FORMATION. My ride was a S-76. All were solo.
We departed and I hit ALT and HDG on my flight director, set power for 100KTS and kicked back.

Meanwhile the second flight departed at a 15 minute interval. I guess their flight lead skipped the transponder part. We passed through Gulfport OK. When Flt 2 checked in, Approach first climaxed, then had a meltdown. Any idea what it looks like on a radar scope when a dozen or more aircraft are all squawking the same assigned code and in formation?
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If you’re in airspace that requires it, and with operable transponders, then all aircraft should be squawking unless ATC directed (91.215).

Once you’ve contacted ATC, they determine if the wingmen squawk or not. Standard formation (< 1 mile & 100ft vert) , squawk standby to prevent overlap/ ring around. Non standard (>1 mile & 100 ft vert), either all squawk or lead and trail only. Depends on the controller & SOPs.
 
Was out with my friend Wednesday. We were both solo, so I opened up to a loose cruise position to get this snap. He's been flying formation for years. Learned from other friends with military experience before the F.A.S.T. guys got started.

I'm still planning on doing the FAST seminar when my RV-8 is finished.

49626536838_d03cb027b3_z.jpg
 
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