Foreflight

[denverpilot]

If someone was buying primarily for normal use (web, email, documents, games, etc.) it would come down to whether they were a form or function person.

Yeah, I'm having such a hard time...

... surfing the web, sending e-mail, handling documents, playing games, administering the Linux boxes with SSH, doing RDP to the Winderz boxes, running aircraft specific checklists, getting weather from seven different sources, checking investments at multiple finance companies, reading news articles from ten different sources, listening to audio media, watching videos, car navigation/GPS, updating my pilot logbook, shopping online, shooting photos and posting them, and all the other "etc." on iOS devices...

Including posting this message...

Pretty sure it "functions" just fine.

(The fact that it looks decent doing it is just a bonus.)

The "Form vs. Function" phrase doesn't hold water.

 

[ziege]

Yeah, I'm having such a hard time...

Would you know? I mean, any computer can do just about anything. You could use a Commodore 64 to update Facebook. If that's all you had you might even think it was really cool and worked well. It's like the guy who has been hand washing his laundry in his bath tub all his life...he says "it gets the job done", and "it's the best way I've ever tried, way better than the sink", and he's right. His clothes may even be clean..ish. You are still better off with a washer and drier.

I've used iOS for a couple years now. I've used Android for a similar time and HC 3.1 for over a month. I'm not a fanboy for either platform. Both have pluses and minuses and depending on your use one might be better than the other. My experienced opinion is that Android is better for day to day use even though it lacks some of the visual refinement. You can point to your clean clothes and say your bathtub is just as good, that don't make it so.

 

[bluesky74656]

I just joined the ranks of the iPad / Foreflight users. Planning a trip to North Carolina tomorrow, so we'll see how it does.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I just joined the ranks of the iPad / Foreflight users. Planning a trip to North Carolina tomorrow, so we'll see how it does.

Cool! Enjoy!

 

[alaskaflyer]

Yeah, I'm having such a hard time...

... surfing the web, sending e-mail, handling documents, playing games, administering the Linux boxes with SSH, doing RDP to the Winderz boxes, running aircraft specific checklists, getting weather from seven different sources, checking investments at multiple finance companies, reading news articles from ten different sources, listening to audio media, watching videos, car navigation/GPS, updating my pilot logbook, shopping online, shooting photos and posting them, and all the other "etc." on iOS devices...

Including posting this message...

Pretty sure it "functions" just fine.

(The fact that it looks decent doing it is just a bonus.)

The "Form vs. Function" phrase doesn't hold water.

Do Android devices allow for better access to the root memory? These days that is my only remaining complaint with the iPad/iPhone. Cloud computing is not quite here, here, and may not likely be here, here, for a while, at least away from Wifi. Workarounds are clunky and I ain't jailbreaking.

 

[piper140]

I have not purchased Foreflight yet. I'm still deciding between Wingx. Does anyone know if Foreflight will display "track up"? All of the demo's I have seen always shows north up on the display.

 

[gprellwitz]

I have not purchased Foreflight yet. I'm still deciding between Wingx. Does anyone know if Foreflight will display "track up"? All of the demo's I have seen always shows north up on the display.

I'm not sure any of them will display track up; I know that Foreflight will not.

You can also check out Garmin's Pilot MyCast, which has been enhanced to be competitive with ForeFlight and WingX Pro.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

fixed

 

[gprellwitz]

My FF will only display N up and nothing else that I can see.
???

Doh! Dyslexic am I! You're riight, I typed it wrong. Correcting my reply now...

 

[alaskaflyer]

I have not purchased Foreflight yet. I'm still deciding between Wingx. Does anyone know if Foreflight will display "track up"? All of the demo's I have seen always shows north up on the display.

Neither WingX nor Foreflight does.

I like both though I let my introductory subscription to WingX lapse for now. I might revisit it when my Foreflight subscription expires in a few months. No way am I going to pay for both.

IMO (and many other people have said) it boils down to which do you consider the more important or primary use - as a EFB and planning tool, or a heads up multifunction display and moving map GPS? Foreflight is better at the former, and WingX is better at the latter (but just barely.)

I'd be happier if Foreflight would either increase their fonts or make them user adjustable. Hard to see in the enroute cockpit and I'm not that old

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd be happier if Foreflight would either increase their fonts or make them user adjustable. Hard to see in the enroute cockpit and I'm not that old

You wouldn't like Flight Guide, then. Tiny text.

Which ones would you like to see increased/adjustable in ForeFlight?

 

[alaskaflyer]

You wouldn't like Flight Guide, then. Tiny text.

Which ones would you like to see increased/adjustable in ForeFlight?

Mostly the flight log overlay on the map. Also some of the drop down menus such as the map selection menu on the map screen. Things that you are trying to read and touch while in flight.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I have the Foreflight and Sky Charts Pro on Ipad.

If you want inexpensive, super easy to use, super big zoom, and basic charts, buy Sky Charts Pro.

If you want lots of features, more complication key board entry, and better support, buy Foreflight.

I have WingX and Sky Charts Pro on an iPad 2. If WingX had track up I would not have purchased SkyCharts Pro (which does have track up,) even though the latter is quite cheap and simple.

There are just two features that have been on all my hand-held GPS units since the dawn of GPS time that iPad 2 moving-map app developers seem to have a collective blind spot for:

(1) Track up.
(2) Bread crumb recording. Specifically the ability to record X,Y,Z,T of your motion at periodic time or distance intervals. How hard is that to do anyway!? I know that isn't on WingX (or Navigon, which I use for ground based GPS mapping.)

Again, Sky Charts Pro has a kind-of bread crumb recording, but only as periodic emails(!)

The sheer novelty of having moving-map anything working must have these iPad developers in a hypnotic trance, unable to move on to GPS features that have been around for years.

Sky Pro is a nice inexpensive replacement of paper charts. You really can't map out a series of waypoints (so far as I can tell) just a simple "direct to" line to the next way point. Adequate for simple VFR flights.

If Foreflight (or any other moving-map iPad app) could address the two issues I would buy it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

There are just two features that have been on all my hand-held GPS units since the dawn of GPS time that iPad 2 moving-map app developers seem to have a collective blind spot for:

(1) Track up.

Show me a GPS unit that uses actual charts and does track up.

I still think that track up on a chart on an electronic device would be really weird. But I guess if enough people ask for it...

(2) Bread crumb recording. Specifically the ability to record X,Y,Z,T of your motion at periodic time or distance intervals. How hard is that to do anyway!? I know that isn't on WingX (or Navigon, which I use for ground based GPS mapping.)

That would be cool. I like the data logging features on the G1000, maybe there's more than just XYZT that could be logged too.

The sheer novelty of having moving-map anything working must have these iPad developers in a hypnotic trance, unable to move on to GPS features that have been around for years.

I don't think that's it. To me, the iPad is an EFB, not a GPS. Heck, there's probably a fair number of people with the WiFi-only iPads and no GPS. The GPS features are nice, but certainly not essential. The killer app here is getting rid of paper.

Then again, it's "confused" a sufficient number of people, and works seemingly well enough, that replacing some of the features of aviation GPS units could be a good thing. In my mind, the three features found on something like a 496 that I'd most like to see would be in-flight weather (coming soon on ForeFlight), terrain, and the panel page. Then again, I'm not sure I trust the iPad's GPS quite enough for those last two.

 

[Jim Logajan]

I still think that track up on a chart on an electronic device would be really weird.

I invested $20 in SkyCharts Pro which does track-up on scanned sectionals. It isn't that weird. At least not to me. A simple press of a pseudo button toggles to north-up for reading map labels.

 

[gprellwitz]

Show me a GPS unit that uses actual charts and does track up.

I still think that track up on a chart on an electronic device would be really weird. But I guess if enough people ask for it...



That would be cool. I like the data logging features on the G1000, maybe there's more than just XYZT that could be logged too.



I don't think that's it. To me, the iPad is an EFB, not a GPS. Heck, there's probably a fair number of people with the WiFi-only iPads and no GPS. The GPS features are nice, but certainly not essential. The killer app here is getting rid of paper.

Then again, it's "confused" a sufficient number of people, and works seemingly well enough, that replacing some of the features of aviation GPS units could be a good thing. In my mind, the three features found on something like a 496 that I'd most like to see would be in-flight weather (coming soon on ForeFlight), terrain, and the panel page. Then again, I'm not sure I trust the iPad's GPS quite enough for those last two.

WingX Pro now has synthetic vision, which I think meets the Terrain feature you are looking for. http://mygoflight.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/WingXPro7-Version6-Press-Release.pdf. "Terrain and obstacles that are above or slightly below the airplane’s altitude are shaded red and yellow respectively. Also displayed are speed and altitude tapes and a Zero Pitch Line that shows the aircraft’s altitude in relation to nearby terrain." It takes advantage of a $750 external wireless AHRS. "If you do not have an AHRS device, your Synthetic Vision view will not show pitch or bank, but otherwise you will have full functionality including runways, obstacle and terrain shading etc." They also have an ADS-B in-flight weather with NEXRAD. Don't know if that includes other weather products or not.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

WingX Pro now has synthetic vision, which I think meets the Terrain feature you are looking for. http://mygoflight.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/WingXPro7-Version6-Press-Release.pdf. "Terrain and obstacles that are above or slightly below the airplane’s altitude are shaded red and yellow respectively. Also displayed are speed and altitude tapes and a Zero Pitch Line that shows the aircraft’s altitude in relation to nearby terrain."

Cool... But if I'm remembering correctly from my booth perusals at OSH, their red and yellow shading was completely different from the seemingly industry-standard values (red for anything within 100 feet vertically and yellow for within 1,000 feet) and instead had something like yellow within 2,000 feet and red within 1,000 feet which is not nearly as useful (I'm thinking doomsday IMC scenarios like all engines failing or on-board fire - One will potentially get you to ~100 feet AGL, the other only to ~1,000 AGL). I wish they'd either do it the way everyone else seems to, or allow the user to specify when they want things to be red vs. yellow vs. uncolored.

It takes advantage of a $750 external wireless AHRS.

Sheesh, between the $750 AHRS, the $950 ADS-B receiver, the iPad from $499-$829 and the subscription, they're starting to make Garmin look cheap...

Once it all starts to play together a bit more nicely, though, it'll be really cool. That's an awful lot of extra boxes lying around the cockpit, though.

Grant, do you have a link to more info about the AHRS box?

 

[gprellwitz]

Cool... But if I'm remembering correctly from my booth perusals at OSH, their red and yellow shading was completely different from the seemingly industry-standard values (red for anything within 100 feet vertically and yellow for within 1,000 feet) and instead had something like yellow within 2,000 feet and red within 1,000 feet which is not nearly as useful (I'm thinking doomsday IMC scenarios like all engines failing or on-board fire - One will potentially get you to ~100 feet AGL, the other only to ~1,000 AGL). I wish they'd either do it the way everyone else seems to, or allow the user to specify when they want things to be red vs. yellow vs. uncolored.





Sheesh, between the $750 AHRS, the $950 ADS-B receiver, the iPad from $499-$829 and the subscription, they're starting to make Garmin look cheap...

Once it all starts to play together a bit more nicely, though, it'll be really cool. That's an awful lot of extra boxes lying around the cockpit, though.

Grant, do you have a link to more info about the AHRS box?

Yeah, it's potentially a LOT of boxes scattered around the cockpit, but I think that'll be true no matter what software you're using. It looks like a) the AHRS isn't shipping (quite) yet (9/15) and b) it'll be a bit more than predicted ($795/$995, and I don't know the difference).
Link: http://www.aviation.levil.com/AHRS_mini.htm

But I think that the functionality still blows Garmin out of the water if it's reliable. To get all this in a single device would cost beaucoup bucks because of the very limited market. I expect that both FF and Garmin will start supporting this hardware in the relatively near future (i.e., before OSH12).

 

[alaskaflyer]

Actually, WingX Pro has color-coded terrain included in the base subscription, as one of the overlays available on the base map. It is only available for the United States below the 60 parallel. They bill this as one of the main selling points over Foreflight.

It may be nonstandard resolution for aviation uses due to the data product it is based on, a shuttle S.A.R. mapping mission a few years ago. Not sure.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Actually, WingX Pro has color-coded terrain included in the base subscription, as one of the overlays available on the base map. It is only available for the United States below the 60 parallel. They bill this as one of the main selling points over Foreflight.

I know... Else I couldn't complain about it.

It may be nonstandard resolution for aviation uses due to the data product it is based on, a shuttle S.A.R. mapping mission a few years ago. Not sure.

That's what pretty much everyone's terrain data is based on, I believe.

 

[alaskaflyer]

That's what pretty much everyone's terrain data is based on, I believe.

Well, Garmin has all of Alaska and Canada too, where WingX for some reason can only offer USA below the 60th Parallel. So they may all be generated from Synthetic Aperture Radar missions (maybe) but not the same product.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well, Garmin has all of Alaska and Canada too, where WingX for some reason can only offer USA below the 60th Parallel. So they may all be generated from Synthetic Aperture Radar missions (maybe) but not the same product.

Or is WingX being more honest in their marketing? Are you above the 60th parallel? There's some GPS weirdness at the poles, isn't there? The G1000 is not certified to operate (at all, not just terrain) in the northern extremes either.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Or is WingX being more honest in their marketing? Are you above the 60th parallel? There's some GPS weirdness at the poles, isn't there? The G1000 is not certified to operate (at all, not just terrain) in the northern extremes either.

Well the terrain shading overlay stops abruptly at the 60th. When I queried Hilton Software they said that was because the data they had stopped there.

I get full terrain on my 296.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well the terrain shading overlay stops abruptly at the 60th. When I queried Hilton Software they said that was because the data they had stopped there.

I get full terrain on my 296.

Huh... Interesting.

Still, if they can do the shading based on HAT at all, they've got to be able to change the thresholds.

 

[gismo]

Well, Garmin has all of Alaska and Canada too, where WingX for some reason can only offer USA below the 60th Parallel. So they may all be generated from Synthetic Aperture Radar missions (maybe) but not the same product.

The 60th parallel is the northern border of the Canadian provinces.

 

[gismo]

Or is WingX being more honest in their marketing? Are you above the 60th parallel? There's some GPS weirdness at the poles, isn't there? The G1000 is not certified to operate (at all, not just terrain) in the northern extremes either.

GPS works fine at any lattitude AFaIK but the G1000 likely has trouble (as do many solid state AHRSs) up there because it relies on magnetic heading for stabilization.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Bill's post in the DME Arc thread about the Provo, UT ILS to runway 13 sent me to FF to look up the plate. A search on the Airports tab for Provo just takes me back to the maps page, centered on the PROVO intersection north of Texarkana. The Airports search box says I can enter a city name, yet it doesn't seem to provide a disambiguation list to select from. If you know the airport code, obviously you can enter that, but beware looking up five-letter city names that also happen to be intersection names. Another example... Enter "Aspen" for your Airport search and it will take you to Maps north of Boston Logan, not Colorado, due to an intersection named ASPEN on the high-IFR chart.

I've reported this to FF support.

OK, the latest versions still have this "issue", so I sent them a message to "bump to the top" (remind them of the request). I also asked for any workaround they might know of.

Turns out, you can put the request in QUOTES, and it will act as expected.

That is, searching for "ASPEN" or "PROVO" instead of just ASPEN or PROVO will get you the city / airport list instead of taking you back to the map page centered on a matching intersection name.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Friend has Ipad "1", will FF work?

 

[wabower]

If my CPA and best friend from childhood participated in this forum (which is unlikely since he's not a pilot and doesn't know squat about airplanes) he would look you squarely in the eye and slowly say "Troy . . . you are a genius."

OK, the latest versions still have this "issue", so I sent them a message to "bump to the top" (remind them of the request). I also asked for any workaround they might know of.

Turns out, you can put the request in QUOTES, and it will act as expected.

That is, searching for "ASPEN" or "PROVO" instead of just ASPEN or PROVO will get you the city / airport list instead of taking you back to the map page centered on a matching intersection name.

 

[denverpilot]

Friend has Ipad "1", will FF work?

Works on mine.

Troy, nice find on the quotation marks. I hadn't thought of that and it's annoying when you can't find a city name.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Friend has Ipad "1", will FF work?

Yes, works fine on mine.

 

[p51tony2]

Will it work with the Apple iPad Touch 32GB MP3 Player??

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Will it work with the Apple iPad Touch 32GB MP3 Player??

I think you mean "iPod Touch".

From their website:

You need one of the following to run ForeFlight Mobile 4:
Apple iPhone, Firmware Version 4.0 or later - iPhone 3GS or newer
Apple iPod touch, Firmware version 4.0 or later - iPod touch 3G or newer
Apple iPad, Firmware version 4.0 or later (any iPad) - iPad 2 3G recommended

If your iPod Touch is on firmware 4.0 or later, you should be good. I can't tell if 3G is required, or is a second option?

 

[alaskaflyer]

Will it work with the Apple iPad Touch 32GB MP3 Player??

If you mean the iPod Touch, yes, so long as it is third generation or newer, running iOS 4.0 or higher. You'll need to buy an external GPS unit for in-cockpit functionality, see other threads here on which GPS device people prefer ( there are only two or three models realistically, either connecting via Bluetooth or by your Apple device's 30 pin dock port.)

 

[alaskaflyer]

I think you mean "iPod Touch".

I can't tell if 3G is required, or is a second option?

By 3G they mean third generation. You can't get cell data on an iPod touch.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

By 3G they mean third generation. You can't get cell data on an iPod touch.

Yeah, I know, that's why it confused me.

 

[huckv]

Looking at the feature list for WingX on the app store, I can tell you what it does that ForeFlight doesn't currently do:

* Terrain
* CDI
* E6B (but you should get Jesse's E6B Pro app anyway. )
* FARs
* The split-screen view

----------------------------------------------------------

Is it hard for foreflight to include terrain? I find it really important. I use foreflight presently and, true, its great. I am in the process of making the iPad my "yoke-mount", replacing my iQue3600A, which I bought a few years back, because it was the cheapest with terrain.

 

[huckv]

Looking at the feature list for WingX on the app store, I can tell you what it does that ForeFlight doesn't currently do:

* Terrain
* CDI
* E6B (but you should get Jesse's E6B Pro app anyway. )
* FARs
* The split-screen view

------------------------------------------------------

I find terrain really important. Why is it so hard to implement?

 

[Mike5250]

Does anyone know of a way to get any of these apps to display the map like any of the Garmin units? It seems like they all use the sectional map instead of an option for a basemap/ airports/airspace, etc (similar to when you use the clear button on a garmin 430/530 to go through how detailed you want it to display)

Its nice to "de-clutter" and show just the basics.

I have use skychartspro and have tried out garmin app and fore flight. Garmin customer support said they will only be offering the sectional map view.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Does anyone know of a way to get any of these apps to display the map like any of the Garmin units? It seems like they all use the sectional map instead of an option for a basemap/ airports/airspace, etc (similar to when you use the clear button on a garmin 430/530 to go through how detailed you want it to display)

Its nice to "de-clutter" and show just the basics.

I have use skychartspro and have tried out garmin app and fore flight. Garmin customer support said they will only be offering the sectional map view.

I guess it's all in what you get used to. I used an old Garmin LCD before FF. I prefer FF about 10 to 1 over the old Garmin.

With FF, you can select the World Map instead of the sectional, but then you don't see much of anything except bodies of water, your route, your location, major highways and weather or imagery overlay.