Foreflight

[jesse]

The problem with mobile interfaces is that it's hard to shove a crap ton of features into them like you can on a desktop app. When there is no mouse and just touch you have to focus on what really matters and make that a good experience instead of playing the feature game.

Personally I think that on the iPad/iPhone you're better off building great targeted apps so that you can focus on that experience versus trying to make a big monster app. It's easy to switch between applications. Notice how Apple has done this with all the applications that ship with the iPhone/iPad.

 

[denverpilot]

Agreed Jesse, some of those items may not belong in the cockpit, but that's where FlightPrep created normal "do everything" mode, and "In Flight" mode.

As Kent said, what does Foreflight want to be? And EFB or a moving map. (Kent said GPS, but I'll say moving map display since the GPS can easily be external to the iPad now.)

Right now it's an outstanding EFB. Charts and weather on the ground are a top-notch experience.

It's a so-so flight planner without 3D vertical airspace and no way to handle climbs/descents, different speeds, or showing weather by altitude.

And a relatively bare-bones moving map display that can really only do charts in a single orientation, no geo-referencing of Approach charts (that was wicked cool on ChartCase Pro, seriously), and no real-time ETA/ETE calculations.

And it's on top-notch hardware, which simply doesn't exist in the PC/Windows world, which can do far more than just run Foreflight.

I do believe they'll get there, but it can't last forever at this price point.

As a side-note... I'm amazed that Apple can offer 0.99 apps, take their 30% cut, and that covers the server farm and bandwidth for these developers who release a new version every month. Even $5 Apps don't seem to make enough to cover the expense of continuous free updates/bug fixes. I wonder if we'll see limits on update frequency (or the developer has to pay Apple or charge for the updates, someday. They can't "make that one up on volume" so to speak.

More expensive Apps like Foreflight surely cover it and make up for the hole in Apple's bottom line there on the server farm overhead costs. I have a lot of Apps installed, and I get nearly daily updates on at least one App. The Free Apps are the ones that floor me in this regard. They seem to get the most updates.

Interesting times, interesting stuff. Fun to play with. I really need to get used to not going to the other screen for frequencies in flight, and just zooming the map and reading the chart. Love the scratchpad. Want a timer screen with alerts that show up if a countdown finishes no matter what screen you're in.

 

[gprellwitz]

For those around Chicago, there's an FAA Safety seminar on 1/20/11 on the use of the iPad in flight planning:

Title:
Use of iPad in Aviation

Topic:
Use of iPad in Aviation. Available apps, pre-flight planning, reducing cockpit workload and limitations.

Date and Time:
Thursday, January 20, 2011 , starting at 7:00 pm

Speaker(s):
Mike Miley

Brief Description:
Seminar focus on iPad use, available apps, pilot workload reduction as well its limitations. Also a presentation of mytransponder.com, website for pilots. Discussion led by Mike Miley, a representative from mytransponder.com and experienced pilot and user of the iPad. Come learn and connect with fellow pilots from around the Chicago land area.

Select Number:
GL0336073

Location of Seminar:
Illinois Aviation Museum

130 S. Clow International Parkway

Bolingbrook, IL 60490

Directions to Venue:
From I-55, take Weber Rd north to Clow International Parkway, go left to the end of road (airport parking lot), right to stop sign, go straight on the access road to the second parking lot at the end. Walk towards runway, Musuem hangar faces the runway, entrance on the south side of hangar 1.
View Map

Fly-in Seminar?:
Yes 1C5

Seating:
50 seats at the facility, 0 remaining for online registration.


Sponsoring Division:
Illinois FAASTeam

Contact Information:
JOSEPH A. KOTOWSKI
Phone: (630) 803-0410
joe.kotowski.7@gmail.com

Additional Seminar Information & Acknowledgement of Industry Sponsor(s):
Sponsored by A & M Aviation, Illinois Aviation Museum of Bolingbrook, and mytransponder.com.
Seminar will be held in the Illinois Aviation Museum hangar at Clow International Airport. Heated hangar with beautiful vintage aircraft and helicopters.
Coffee & Soft Drinks will be Served!!

 

[denverpilot]

I should follow up and explain that ChartCase's "In Flight" mode is all designed around using the screen as a touch screen. Big buttons, big Tabs. No "target practice" and only things you'd want to see, in flight. If you really need out to the other.interface that's the on-the-ground interface, you can get out and back in, but you're going to need your stylus or a steady hand.

Foreflight is inconsistent in this. Example, the "Aircraft Center" button and flight plan text boxes are tiny compared to the nice big whole-line touch areas of the airport information screen. Same with the button to expand the flight plan on the map screen, fairly small.

Some of us have sausage fingers!!!

 

[EppyGA]

More expensive Apps like Foreflight surely cover it and make up for the hole in Apple's bottom line there on the server farm overhead costs. I have a lot of Apps installed, and I get nearly daily updates on at least one App. The Free Apps are the ones that floor me in this regard. They seem to get the most updates.

The Foreflight app itself is free, it's the subscription that costs money. This brings up a question that Jesse can answer. In the case of an app like ForeFlight does Apple get a cut of the subscription money?

 

[jesse]

The Foreflight app itself is free, it's the subscription that costs money. This brings up a question that Jesse can answer. In the case of an app like ForeFlight does Apple get a cut of the subscription money?

Yes - 30%. Apple isn't going broke off the App Store.

If I sell an application for 99 cents - then apple takes their 30 cents, then the government takes their cut, I'm not left with much. It amazes me sometimes how people expect you to be able to develop great aviation software and sell it for 99 cents like other apps they see. The aviation market is too small for that.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The Foreflight app itself is free, it's the subscription that costs money. This brings up a question that Jesse can answer. In the case of an app like ForeFlight does Apple get a cut of the subscription money?

Yes - 30%. Apple isn't going broke off the App Store.

What Jesse said - The ForeFlight subscriptions and anything else that uses in-app purchasing is also sold through the iTunes store (and your iTunes account). This has become quite popular, some apps will sell for free so you can try them out, but you have to "buy" the full functionality - Or on a lot of games you can buy additional levels and such through in-app purchase. Apple gets their 30% of all of it.

The good thing about this - Since it's going through your iTunes account, your credit card info never goes to the developer and it isn't spread far and wide. From a developer perspective, you don't have to maintain a merchant account or do anything at all, Apple just writes you a check.

The iAd advertising that comes through Apple to support some of the free apps has a 60% developer / 40% Apple split.

 

[ChrisRikli]

Yes - 30%. Apple isn't going broke off the App Store.

If I sell an application for 99 cents - then apple takes their 30 cents, then the government takes their cut, I'm not left with much. It amazes me sometimes how people expect you to be able to develop great aviation software and sell it for 99 cents like other apps they see. The aviation market is too small for that.

And good lord almighty, we all pay at least $100 an hour to in futile attempts to sate this addiction. We can handle a $75/year app.

 

[denverpilot]

And good lord almighty, we all pay at least $100 an hour to in futile attempts to sate this addiction. We can handle a $75/year app.

Oh absolutely. It saves me that much in paper charts alone. I'd go higher than $75/year for the additional feature-set I've talked about in this thread. Significantly higher.

Probably 50-100% higher if necessary. It's still a good deal at 100% more. It's not at good deal at 200% more, just doing a rough "back of the eyelids" calculation.

 

[david3rd]

My son gave me an iPad for Christmas and we checked out about three or four flight programs. A couple them he could not get to load correctly, so we settled on ForeFlight.
I have used it twice on two round trips in a Cessna Caravan, and all I can says is that the program is great. It is amazing that the map is dead on and the speed is correct all the time in flight at 3,500 feet, between Houston and Austin.
I downloaded only the four states around Texas, to keep my memory usage down.
I highly recommend the program. The crew that run the company really know what they are doing.

 

[fiid.]

Oh absolutely. It saves me that much in paper charts alone. I'd go higher than $75/year for the additional feature-set I've talked about in this thread. Significantly higher.

Hi, btw!

Do you not carry paper charts as a backup? Is Foreflight considered reliable enough to be the only chart source at this point?

I think it's well worth the money, and it proved it's worth to me when I got into a rental that was missing the datacard from it's Garmin 530.

 

[zaitcev]

Personally I think that on the iPad/iPhone you're better off building great targeted apps so that you can focus on that experience versus trying to make a big monster app. It's easy to switch between applications. Notice how Apple has done this with all the applications that ship with the iPhone/iPad.

Apple also had access to multitasking since day one, while denying it to everyone else.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Hi, btw!

Do you not carry paper charts as a backup? Is Foreflight considered reliable enough to be the only chart source at this point?

I think it's well worth the money, and it proved it's worth to me when I got into a rental that was missing the datacard from it's Garmin 530.

There wasn't much of an official announcement, but ForeFlight tweeted this last week:

Big news: we were informed today a client using ForeFlight HD received an Air Carrier A061 paperless cockpit OpSpec approval from the FAA!

So, that would seem to indicate that even the FAA is convinced it's reliable enough.

Apple also had access to multitasking since day one, while denying it to everyone else.

They didn't use it for much, though, and it's somewhat irrelevant to what Jesse is saying, IMHO. The only "multitasking" that Apple really used was that the iPod app would continue playing when you did other things, Safari would finish loading a page, and Mail would continue sending a message and would check your mail however often you set it to.

I think what Jesse is saying is that it's better to write smaller apps with a fairly distinct purpose and do them well, than have one big app that does everything, and is the jack of all trades and master of none. ForeFlight is already a pretty big app, but it's for flight planning and EFB type use - Adding something like an E6B or weight and balance is fairly pointless when you already have other apps that can do the same thing. I would also rather ForeFlight keep improving their app to do what it already does better, rather than waste their resources trying to make it the "everything aviation you'll ever need" app.

 

[denverpilot]

Hi, btw!

Do you not carry paper charts as a backup? Is Foreflight considered reliable enough to be the only chart source at this point?

Yes. I trust it. But for out-of-local-area flights, I carry paper too. Usually because I really like to spread paper out on a big table and really look over unfamiliar areas.

For local flights, the paper chart backup on board, may or may not be current. I also usually have a printed flight log with times, fuel estimates, etc. This part was easy with ChartCase, not yet easy with Foreflight. (I played with iFlightPlanner.com today for a local flight that I know really well, KAPA-KPUB-KAPA. Printed that stuff, and put it in the kneeboard, but then used Foreflight exclusively with some scribbled notes and my ASA fuel/flight timer on the yoke clip.)

Biggest caveat would be battery life right now, as I haven't yet invested in a way to charge in-flight. I make sure the battery is topped off and I have to run the brightness at max for my eyeballs in daylight, so the battery can easily make it most of a day.

I like to keep hops to 3-4 hours anyway with 4 being an uncomfortable max when lightly loaded and full of fuel... So a stop to grab a bite to eat would usually include a bit of time on the charger at a fuel-stop.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I dl'd ForeFlight to my ipod touch from AOPA, hoping it would have arinc fqys and fbo phone numbers, and that I could access them while flying.

It took a while to load an airport (sitting at the house) so I am wondering if it needs a wifi signal to retrieve the airports? And thus does not have the database loaded in the device?

Also, it did not list the two things I wanted, at least for the airport I chose - is this type of info typically not part of FF?

 

[denverpilot]

Just a note: What you downloaded from AOPA is called "AOPA Airports" by Foreflight, which is not the full Foreflight application. It's limited to A/FD information and sponsored by AOPA as a free application for AOPA Members only, and it requires that you enter your AOPA Online login information for tracking purposes.

You may want to look over the Frequently Asked Questions page at Foreflight's website for information on the differences between the two pieces of software, etc.

http://www.foreflight.com/support-faq.php?product=aopaairports

It has been a while since I launched AOPA Airports vs. the Full application, because I had uninstalled it, but I just reinstalled to answer your question, and I see that the AOPA Application only has FAA published data. ARINC frequencies I have not seen in either application, and FBO numbers and data are only available in the full subscription version.

As far as updates go, my copy has a Download button at bottom that immediately came up with a badge that showed there were downloads available and there was a warning that the airport data was out of date, immediately after installation. I do not remember if that data can be updated over a 3G connection, or if it requires WiFi. It isn't a very large data update, but would still take a bit of time over 3G.

Hope that helps.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I dl'd ForeFlight to my ipod touch from AOPA, hoping it would have arinc fqys and fbo phone numbers, and that I could access them while flying.

It took a while to load an airport (sitting at the house) so I am wondering if it needs a wifi signal to retrieve the airports? And thus does not have the database loaded in the device?

Also, it did not list the two things I wanted, at least for the airport I chose - is this type of info typically not part of FF?

Dave,

Did you download ForeFlight, or AOPA Airports? (I'm asking because you said you downloaded it "from AOPA" which is not where you get ForeFlight. To get ForeFlight, go here on your iPod Touch: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/foreflight-mobile-hd-aviation/id333252638?mt=8)

ForeFlight can store data locally so you can access it in flight with no connection, and it does have ARINC freqs and FBO phone numbers - Here's how:

On the iPhone:

From the main screen, tap in the field and type the identifier of the airport you want info for (you can also tap the target to find nearby airports, or the Airports icon to browse by state). On the resulting screen, tap the "FBOs" button at the lower right. You'll get a list of FBO's which does show the ARINC and UNICOM freqs, the phone number, and the fuel prices (3rd pic). If you tap on an FBO, it'll give you a more detailed screen of data about that FBO (4th pic).

On the iPad, it's much the same: Airports tab, type in the identifier (or hit the target for nearest), tap the FBO's button, and optionally tap the FBO name:

(Whoops - I didn't even wait the couple of seconds to let it load the METARs...)

BTW, you'll find the settings for storing data locally in the Downloads tab. The airport database (incl. all the FBO info) is downloaded by default.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

ARINC frequencies I have not seen in either application

I think that's just because there aren't a whole lot of them. I knew Signature at KMKE had ARINC, so I tried it and there it is (see the screen shots I posted).

As far as updates go, my copy has a Download button at bottom that immediately came up with a badge that showed there were downloads available and there was a warning that the airport data was out of date, immediately after installation. I do not remember if that data can be updated over a 3G connection, or if it requires WiFi. It isn't a very large data update, but would still take a bit of time over 3G.

The airport database is 30MB, and can be downloaded over 3G on an iPhone or iPad - But not Dave's iPod Touch. It'll download on WiFi for everyone tho.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Did you download ForeFlight, or AOPA Airports? (I'm asking because you said you downloaded it "from AOPA" which is not where you get ForeFlight.

Thanks Kent.
I did get FF (that's the name on the app symbol on my device) and I did get it from AOPA - their staff directed me to the aopa site to acquire it.
I also have AOPA Airports (a separate icon on my device).

Thanks for pointing out the FBO button bottom right, that is the key - I see the arinc and asri frequencies there.

I turned off the house wifi and clicked on an airport, there was no fbo....or most other info there. So I would have to download the airports I want before I leave? Is there a way to dl the entire US or are you saying the ipod touch is unable to do that?



abbreviation disclaimer:
FF Foreflight
app software application
AOPA Aircraft owner & pilots association
FBO fixed bas e operator
arinc http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARINC
asri http://www.asri.aero/about_agsa.html

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Thanks Kent.
I did get FF (that's the name on the app symbol on my device) and I did get it from AOPA - their staff directed me to the aopa site to acquire it.
I also have AOPA Airports (a separate icon on my device).

Thanks for pointing out the FBO button bottom right, that is the key - I see the arinc and asri frequencies there.

I turned off the house wifi and clicked on an airport, there was no fbo....or most other info there. So I would have to download the airports I want before I leave? Is there a way to dl the entire US or are you saying the ipod touch is unable to do that?

Dave,

Go to the main ForeFlight screen and tap "Download" (lower left corner, unless you moved it). If there's a green check mark next to "Airport Database" then you should already have all the data stored on your iPod, and it should work even with your WiFi turned off. You can use the various settings available on that screen to download charts, plates, etc. for use in flight as well.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Thanks yet again Kent, I am downloading the apt database now.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Thanks yet again Kent, I am downloading the apt database now.

Excellent! Let me know how it works.

You'll be buying an iPad before you know it.

 

[chilei]

Does Foreflight allow for upside down positioning of the IPAD? I am looking at using it as a kneeboard type configuration and the use of bad elf gps would possibly stress the connection but if it can be viewed with the connection port at the top there is less risk and better access to signals.

 

[jason]

Does Foreflight allow for upside down positioning of the IPAD? I am looking at using it as a kneeboard type configuration and the use of bad elf gps would possibly stress the connection but if it can be viewed with the connection port at the top there is less risk and better access to signals.

Yes, it does.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

How to get the last route off the screen?
I have erased all flight plans and favorite routes.
Still shows the course lines and lists the wps of the last route at the top.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

also I searched but could not find where someone told me about a streetmap app that can be purchased for those that do not have a data plan - you can dl maps before departing. Preferably georefed of course.

 

[jason]

How to get the last route off the screen?
I have erased all flight plans and favorite routes.
Still shows the course lines and lists the wps of the last route at the top.

The right side of the route entry box has a little "x". Click that to clear the route from the search box and your route will be cleared from the map.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

ha, I thought that only erased the entry not the actual route and courseline. Aren't you glad someone asks simple questions?

 

[alaskaflyer]

also I searched but could not find where someone told me about a streetmap app that can be purchased for those that do not have a data plan - you can dl maps before departing. Preferably georefed of course.

Well there are several depending on your needs. First in line is a TomTom app though it costs nearly as much as buying a TomTom unit which is about 50 bucks for the USA and $60 for USA and Canada - other countries are much more expensive almost as much as an actual TomTom unit. I used the New Zealand version on my iPhone during our trip there with my data turned off to avoid int'l roaming fees and was very happy.

Gaia GPS will cache topos and street maps for offline use though I have to say that the download process is less-than-elegant, at least compared to Foreflight. Online it is a great general use GPS app for hiking etc. There are others, MotionX, etc. None of which have a particularly useful way to cache or download map data for offline use except in a very localized area.

Edit: I forgot about Offmaps. Perhaps that is what they were thinking about. Reviews in the iTunes store were less than complementary and it appears that only metropolitan areas are available?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Well there are several depending on your needs

Mainly for driving in and around larger cities in Texas and I'd want to include any rural area of the state.
Periodically I will go out of state and need one for another state so I'd need the option to dl the maps for any other state.

And often I am in a no-wifi, no-cell signal area (that's why I didn't bother with the plan) so I would like to gps-ref the maps just like FF.

I will search the options you posted.

 

[Artiom]

I'm using TomTom on iPhone and quite happy with it. It missing dedicated exit button which makes closing the app PITA, you have double click on home button, tap on TomTom icon for couple seconds and then tap on x to kill it. Live traffic is extra $20 or so per year. App itself is $49.
I have no personal experience but would recommend to check out Garmin StreetPilot. They have free live traffic.
One more thing - if you buy any app you can install it on all iDevices that are on the same iTunes account. Means if you buy TomTom you can install it on your iPhone and your wife's iPhone. You're getting two GPS navigators

 

[jesse]

I'm using TomTom on iPhone and quite happy with it. It missing dedicated exit button which makes closing the app PITA, you have double click on home button, tap on TomTom icon for couple seconds and then tap on x to kill it.

That doesn't sound right. Why can't you just hit the home screen button and let it background? It really shouldn't be able to do too much while backgrounded (as there isnt true backgrounding in ios) and will be terminated by iOS if the device needs more memory.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Multitasking and battery life
If you have a route planned and have not reached your destination, the TomTom App may keep calculating a route while running in the background. It will keep finding a GPS signal and giving turn-by-turn instructions and this can drain the battery when your iPhone is not charged.

Note:

The TomTom App is not active in the background when no route is planned.
The TomTom App is not active in the background when a route is planned and you have reached your destination.

To clear a route in the TomTom App do the following:

In the Main menu, tap Route Options.
This button is only available if a route is planned.
Tap Clear Route.
Tap Yes to confirm.

.....

 

[jesse]

.....

Thanks for the clarification. I haven't looked at the background APIs that closely (as I've had no need to use them). It looks like they were able to accomplish quite a bit with them.

 

[denverpilot]

One more thing - if you buy any app you can install it on all iDevices that are on the same iTunes account. Means if you buy TomTom you can install it on your iPhone and your wife's iPhone. You're getting two GPS navigators

You can also copy the App from one Mac to another, install on the other person's device, and authorize the App to run just like music between two AppleID accounts.

It is a PITA to update them though. They'll fail until you retype the Apple account that bought them. I found it annoying enough I just bought a few Apps both my wife and I had on our phones, twice.

Something as expensive as TomTom might be worth the hassle though. That is *if* they don't do their own device authentication and userIDs of their own for updates, which I assume they're smart enough to do... Just like Foreflight.

Getting the App itself on multiple iOS devices with different default AppleIDs is easy, though.

 

[Artiom]

You can also copy the App from one Mac to another, install on the other person's device, and authorize the App to run just like music between two AppleID accounts.

It is a PITA to update them though. They'll fail until you retype the Apple account that bought them. I found it annoying enough I just bought a few Apps both my wife and I had on our phones, twice.

Something as expensive as TomTom might be worth the hassle though. That is *if* they don't do their own device authentication and userIDs of their own for updates, which I assume they're smart enough to do... Just like Foreflight.

Getting the App itself on multiple iOS devices with different default AppleIDs is easy, though.

I've done it on iOS devices only that are sitting on the same account. Not sure what is the problem with updating you mention. I have TomTom on my iPhone and my wife's iPhone. When it is time to update I open AppStore , go to Updates, press Update All, enter my account password and that's it. Not sure why do you say it is PITA
I can confirm TomTom works on multiple devices.

 

[denverpilot]

I've done it on iOS devices only that are sitting on the same account. Not sure what is the problem with updating you mention. I have TomTom on my iPhone and my wife's iPhone. When it is time to update I open AppStore , go to Updates, press Update All, enter my account password and that's it. Not sure why do you say it is PITA
I can confirm TomTom works on multiple devices.

You missed that I was explaining you can also do it between iOS devices on different accounts. (AppleIDs)

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

easy one: track up (vs N up)
tks

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

oo-kaay. No track up. I thought I had it previously. No matter.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

How big is FFPro? How can you find the size of any app?