Foreflight

I did not read every post of this thread, so if this has already been addressed, please forgive me and maybe point me toward the post:

I live in the boonies with satellite internet and NO cell phone service. Anything above about 200MB download per day and they step you down to dial up speed as the punishment. At work they run the network as if it were a nuclear bomb plant, so connecting to their network for downloading is out of the question.

SOoo.... to download several states, without adequate internet or cell phone service are there any alternatives? Is it available on DVD or something?

Thanks for your help.
Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
I did not read every post of this thread, so if this has already been addressed, please forgive me and maybe point me toward the post:

I live in the boonies with satellite internet and NO cell phone service. Anything above about 200MB download per day and they step you down to dial up speed as the punishment. At work they run the network as if it were a nuclear bomb plant, so connecting to their network for downloading is out of the question.

SOoo.... to download several states, without adequate internet or cell phone service are there any alternatives? Is it available on DVD or something?
Click to expand...

Yikes!

For the VFR sectionals and the IFR enroutes, there's nothing you can do but download from the device.

For approach plates, you could probably use a NACO (or Jepp) DVD and use the "Bring Your Own Procedures" functionality, but I think you'd probably have to write a script to name and place everything correctly, or do it manually for a few airports when you go flying.

Does your FBO have WiFi? Got a coffee shop or Panera or something around?

I would send your problem to team@foreflight.com and see if they have any suggestions, too. And you never know, there might appear at some point in the future the ability to do something different.

One other thing you might try: The data does come out a few days before it becomes effective. You might be able to get away with downloading a couple of states a day for those few days and end up with what you need. On the downloads screen, the size of each individual data set is shown and you can download them one at a time (press the blue down arrow to the right of each data set instead of the big green download button at the bottom). So, maybe you can grab things a little at a time before the old ones expire.

What states, and what types of charts are you wanting to have available?
 
MBDiagMan said:
I did not read every post of this thread, so if this has already been addressed, please forgive me and maybe point me toward the post:

I live in the boonies with satellite internet and NO cell phone service. Anything above about 200MB download per day and they step you down to dial up speed as the punishment. At work they run the network as if it were a nuclear bomb plant, so connecting to their network for downloading is out of the question.

SOoo.... to download several states, without adequate internet or cell phone service are there any alternatives? Is it available on DVD or something?
Click to expand...

Find a restaurant/store that has free WiFi. ;)

Not entirely kidding. For a few years I did quite a bit of traveling, spending 3+ weeks at a time on the road. I also needed to download large files from time to time during these trips. There were a few times when I had to leave a customer site and find a restaurant with free WiFi where I could successfully download the files I needed. They may have tightened up restrictions about file transfers since then but it may be your best option.
 
Thanks for the replies!

I figure that I could probably get by nicely with Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana and possibly Tennessee.

From reading earlier that someone started the download at the office before going home and it took four hours, I thought that going to the coffee shop would involve drinking LOTS of coffee for such a download session. If a half dozen or so states is a more reasonable download time, that might be the solution.

If these few states would be less than 200MB then I might could get by with my satellite internet.

My "FBO" consists of a very small, probably 500 square foot building with a keypad on the door and a credit card self service Avgas pump.

It sounds like a 16GB Ipad and the foreflight would nicely substitute for a handheld Garmin of roughly the same cost.

Thanks again,
Doc
 
It sounds like a 16GB Ipad and the foreflight would nicely substitute for a handheld Garmin of roughly the same cost.
Click to expand...
It would make a good "post checkride" gift-to-self.

This doesn't qualify as advice because I really haven't spent any time with them in the cockpit, but....

I have an iPad 2 and a Motorola Xoom, both wifi only models. The iPad is undeniably slicker when it comes to eye candy and media/game use. It's really fun to show off. However...well, at this point my iPad mostly sits in a cradle at home, while the Xoom goes everywhere with me. It's little things like having a GPS built in, the excellent gmail experience, widgets, and so on. After using the Xoom for a little while the iPad really seems limited. The Xoom doesn't give as good a first impression, but it gives you more power...and there are supposedly even better Android tablets coming out in the next few months.

As for cockpit use...I know WingX and Naviator are available for Android...not sure about Foreflight today but I'd expect it's just a matter of time. So far I haven't used any of them beyond just playing around a bit so I have nothing to add there.

Just something to consider. You won't go wrong with an iPad, it's good stuff, but you are paying for polish at the cost of some functionality. For some people that's a no brainer good deal. Others will be happier with the more sophisticated device even if it isn't quite as pretty. Your call.
 
MBDiagMan said:
I figure that I could probably get by nicely with Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana and possibly Tennessee.
Click to expand...

Here's the dataset sizes in MB (Taxi Diagrams and A/FD, VFR charts): TX (14, 135), OK (4, 51), AR (3, 40), LA (3, 42), TN(3, 43) plus the airport database is 32MB. As I understand, you're VFR only so that should be it... Right? (No IFR enroute charts or approach plates?)

So, that's a total of 370MB. You could break it down into Airport Database + taxi diagrams + TX VFR on one day (194MB) and the rest of the VFR's on another day (176MB), or if you want to leave yourself some room below your 200MB cap you could go with the TX VFR charts one day (135MB), OK/AR/LA VFR the next day (133MB), and the rest on the third day (102MB).

From reading earlier that someone started the download at the office before going home and it took four hours, I thought that going to the coffee shop would involve drinking LOTS of coffee for such a download session. If a half dozen or so states is a more reasonable download time, that might be the solution.
Click to expand...

Their office must have a slow (or heavily used) connection - I can get ALL of the information available in ForeFlight (worldwide airport database, some additional Canadian data, and the IFR high and low enroutes, IFR approach plates, VFR sectionals and TACs, A/FD and taxiway diagrams for the entire US) in about two hours on my home connection.

You probably won't need all that data, or that much coffee. ;)

FWIW, I deleted the data in question (VFR charts, A/FD and taxi diagrams for the five states you mentioned plus the airport database) and was able to re-download it at home in 7 minutes. So, if you do have a coffee shop or other local establishment with WiFi available, you could probably do it in one cup of coffee.

If these few states would be less than 200MB then I might could get by with my satellite internet.
Click to expand...

Not quite, but close enough that you should be able to download it in halves or thirds as I suggested above in between the time it becomes available and the time it becomes effective.
 
Correcting for misinformation only, we've had the discussions on the merits elsewhere...

ziege said:
It's little things like having a GPS built in
Click to expand...

All 3G iPads do have a GPS built in.

As for cockpit use...I know WingX and Naviator are available for Android...not sure about Foreflight today but I'd expect it's just a matter of time.
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Frankly, I kinda doubt it. They're currently hiring more iOS developers but not any Android developers. As with any app, bringing ForeFlight to Android would require a ground-up rewrite. In addition, it's harder for devs to support Android due to the numerous different versions, different hardware, etc.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Correcting for misinformation only...
Click to expand...

There was no misinformation in my post. There were a few (clearly labeled) opinions you might not like, but no misinformation. I own both. I also have an iPhone 4 and a Nexus One (need to update the Android phone soon). I'm not particularly loyal to either platform but I need my products to work well on both.


On the 3G GPS...
1) The comparison I made was between MY Xoom and MY iPad 2. Both are WiFi-only models. What a 3G unit may or may not have is irrelevant.

2) The person I was talking to said he lives in an area with no cell coverage. He would be an idiot to buy a 3G iPad when that functionality won't work for him.

3) Do you really want to get into the details of the 3G iPad's GPS? :wink2:

On ForeFlight eventually doing an Android version... I do expect it's just a matter of time. It's not misinformation, it's opinion and clearly labeled as such. Apple has a track record going back 35 years. They deliver cool products and start out very very strong but they have some bad habits. Ask any of the analysts (Forrester et al) what they think Apple will do with iOS long term. A whole bunch of developers have started out apple shops only to realize there was money elsewhere and make the switch. Myself included. I assume the ForeFlight people aren't idiots so they'll do the same. Maybe next year, maybe longer, but it's forward or die in this industry.

Don't be so quick to label opinions you find unpleasant as "misinformation." :nono:
 
I wrote, earlier this year, and offered to help port ForeFlight to Android / Xoom / Googley Honeycomb. Their reply, and I quote:

"Beyond ForeFlight Weather, which is available in Android Market, we have no plans to announce other Android-based products."

So I'd say Kent's take on their market focus / direction is accurate.
 
One thing I've learned from 20+ years of being pegged with job titles like "software engineer" ... plans don't mean squat when you're over here and the money is over there...that's where terms like "midnight oil" come from.

But... yeah, you'll be stuck with WingX, Naviator, Navzilla, etc, otherwise/until that happens. I have no idea whether those are viable/in the same class as ForeFlight...I'd actually like to know that myself.
 
ziege said:
3) Do you really want to get into the details of the 3G iPad's GPS? :wink2:
Click to expand...

I'll get into it, since I own one and you don't :rofl: I have yet to find a situation where I wished I had an external GPS for mine, either flying, walking, or driving. I even borrowed an external GPS and used it for a weekend and could see no improvement in service, even in accuracy.

I've no idea if the GPS in the 3G IPad2 is better than the original 3G iPad, but despite people writing their complaints I've yet to be disappointed. And I tend to be fairly picky.

But... yeah, you'll be stuck with WingX, Naviator, Navzilla, etc, otherwise/until that happens. I have no idea whether those are viable/in the same class as ForeFlight...I'd actually like to know that myself.
Click to expand...

Well in my opinion WingX 7 Pro for the Ipad is definitely in the same class as Foreflight HD, though each have their advantages and disadvantages and after evaluating WingX for a while I believe Foreflight has a slight edge in stability and features.

The question is whether WingX for Android compares favorably with WingX Pro for the iPhone/iPad, and thus is comparable to Foreflight in quality. That is unknown to me.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Here's the dataset sizes in MB (Taxi Diagrams and A/FD, VFR charts): TX (14, 135), OK (4, 51), AR (3, 40), LA (3, 42), TN(3, 43) plus the airport database is 32MB. As I understand, you're VFR only so that should be it... Right? (No IFR enroute charts or approach plates?)

So, that's a total of 370MB. You could break it down into Airport Database + taxi diagrams + TX VFR on one day (194MB) and the rest of the VFR's on another day (176MB), or if you want to leave yourself some room below your 200MB cap you could go with the TX VFR charts one day (135MB), OK/AR/LA VFR the next day (133MB), and the rest on the third day (102MB).



Their office must have a slow (or heavily used) connection - I can get ALL of the information available in ForeFlight (worldwide airport database, some additional Canadian data, and the IFR high and low enroutes, IFR approach plates, VFR sectionals and TACs, A/FD and taxiway diagrams for the entire US) in about two hours on my home connection.

You probably won't need all that data, or that much coffee. ;)

FWIW, I deleted the data in question (VFR charts, A/FD and taxi diagrams for the five states you mentioned plus the airport database) and was able to re-download it at home in 7 minutes. So, if you do have a coffee shop or other local establishment with WiFi available, you could probably do it in one cup of coffee.



Not quite, but close enough that you should be able to download it in halves or thirds as I suggested above in between the time it becomes available and the time it becomes effective.
Click to expand...


Yes, I am VFR only at this point, but will moving toward my instrument rating as soon as possible after my checkride, so I want to plan for all the IFR plates and other goodies when I'm purchasing gear.

Yes, I plan on purchasing a GPS or the IPad/Foreflight upon completing my checkride.

Thanks to everyone in this thread for all the great information and dialogue.

Doc
 
alaskaflyer said:
I have yet to find a situation where I wished I had an external GPS for mine, either flying, walking, or driving.
...
I've no idea if the GPS in the 3G IPad2 is better than the original 3G iPad, but despite people writing their complaints I've yet to be disappointed. And I tend to be fairly picky.
Click to expand...

I've had the same experience with my iPhone4.
 
alaskaflyer said:
I'll get into it, since I own one and you don't :rofl: I have yet to find a situation where I wished I had an external GPS for mine, either flying, walking, or driving. I even borrowed an external GPS and used it for a weekend and could see no improvement in service, even in accuracy.

I've no idea if the GPS in the 3G IPad2 is better than the original 3G iPad, but despite people writing their complaints I've yet to be disappointed. And I tend to be fairly picky.
Click to expand...

Cool - good info. As you say, there are a lot of complaints about it, and some theory behind the complaints. My understanding was that the A-GPS implementation in the iPad could rely too heavily on the A... glad to know not everyone sees the problem.

I like technology, and I want it to work. I'm definitely not choosing sides (after all, I own both... I've had two generations of iPhones and Android phones over the years too), but as someone with experience with both I'll try to honestly give what I consider to be the pros and cons of each.

Comparing wifi-only to wifi-only, I own 'em both, use 'em both, think they are both amazing...but once the newness wore off I found the HC 3.1 experience more usable. Not slicker, not prettier, but I get more done with less fuss. It's the same thing a lot of people find when they switch from iPhones to Androids. It's not the same sort of pretty but it is empowering.

YMMV of course but try them each for two solid weeks before you say you think I'm wrong.
 
ziege said:
There was no misinformation in my post.
Click to expand...

You strongly implied that iPads (all of them) don't have a GPS... I was simply correcting that.

You also said that ForeFlight would come to Android eventually. Never say never, but that is a REALLY long shot - If you buy an android device hoping that ForeFlight will be there in a year or two, you'll be disappointed.

So yes, there was misinformation in your post.

On the 3G GPS...
1) The comparison I made was between MY Xoom and MY iPad 2. Both are WiFi-only models. What a 3G unit may or may not have is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Fair enough... But you never specified that.

2) The person I was talking to said he lives in an area with no cell coverage. He would be an idiot to buy a 3G iPad when that functionality won't work for him.
Click to expand...

If he wants a GPS, why wouldn't he buy a 3G iPad? You don't have to have a service plan for it to work.

3) Do you really want to get into the details of the 3G iPad's GPS? :wink2:
Click to expand...

I'd love to.

On ForeFlight eventually doing an Android version... I do expect it's just a matter of time.
Click to expand...

Highly doubtful. Look at what I posted, look at what Troy posted, and look at the fact that many airlines and charter operators are using iPads. Also, many GA folks bought iPads because they work great and they were out long ago. We're finally getting to the point where there are some reasonably good aviation apps available for Android tablets, or so I've heard - But switching from one to the other means buying all your apps over again, and that's where they exist on Android at all.

So, in terms of the aviation world, the iPad is going to be the leader for quite some time, and it's not going to go away for a VERY VERY long time - So, ForeFlight doesn't really have the motivation to go to Android. Others will play in that space, but ForeFlight is doing quite well sticking with iOS.

They deliver cool products and start out very very strong but they have some bad habits.
Click to expand...

No doubt - But the products generally start out strong and only get stronger. It took the Mac a long time to get through its growing pains, and it took Apple a long time to get good at marketing - But the Mac is much stronger now than when it started, iPods are still king of the mountain when it comes to MP3 players, they're now the world's 3rd-largest smartphone manufacturer when that's a space they didn't even play in five years ago, and they have the leading tablet on the market. So I wouldn't say the products "start out strong." Apple's products set the bar, and for the most part other vendors have to work like mad just to keep up.

Apple's business practices... Uh, yeah. Apple has a long history of just absolutely f***ing enterprise, for example. And they haven't quit that yet. They tend to be heavy-handed in some of their dealings, and Steve Jobs holds a grudge better than anyone. (Ask anyone from the Newton team, or IBM/Motorola, or Toshiba, or...)

Ask any of the analysts (Forrester et al) what they think Apple will do with iOS long term.
Click to expand...

Why? The analysts generally tend to be wrong when it comes to Apple.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You strongly implied that iPads (all of them) don't have a GPS... I was simply correcting that.
Click to expand...

Let's just say you were correcting what you thought was misinformation and leave it at that. I thought what I said, and the context, was pretty clear but if it confused you I guess I shoulda been more careful. And I'll leave off the question of iPad 3G GPS reception 'cause it sounds like you are a happy user. Ain't none of it worth a micturition rencounter.

Not compared to this:

So, in terms of the aviation world, the iPad is going to be the leader for quite some time, and it's not going to go away for a VERY VERY long time -
Click to expand...
:)

Not sure I buy that theory.

Tablets are like cell phones... they go out in the real world and take a beating and won't last more than a couple years. They are worse than laptops, and laptops are worse than desktops. If you are an active user you are going to dustbin (sorry...recycle) your tablet in a year or two anyway. Figure owning a tablet will cost you $300 a year (plus any data services) and you'll be OK with that...honestly it's cheap for what you get. But each time that tablet is up for replacement most folks are going to be looking at all their options.

One theory is that apps will hold people to a platform. The types of apps people are buying defeats that IMO. Most of what the app store sells is short-lived fluff. If you enjoy a song you'll probably want to hear it from time to time for years. If you buy a iOS game, on the other hand, chances are you'll find it painfully boring after a few weeks. That's OK because you only paid a few bucks and there's a new one for you to try. There is no way I'm going to go back and play Angry Birds again, so I don't care if I'm "abandoning" a license to it when I switch platforms.

Oh, there are some "serious" apps, but many of those use subscription licensing. E.g. the nav apps I've looked at are essentially free compared to the map/data subscriptions. Maybe there is a one time $15 charge, but that's nothing compared to a $600 device and $100/yr in subscriptions. I think $5/gal 100ll gives pilots a warped perception anyway.

I just don't see what forces are going to hold people in a particular orbit over the long haul. I'm sure there will be some iPads (1st generation even) in cockpits in 5 years, but will there be enough to keep developers in green if they freeze their offerings? Doubtful. It's forward or die, and right now forward means forkward ... Android and iOS. It's no different than the rest of the computer market in that respect.

Nokia, RIM, etc all had unassailable leads and locks on the market for the foreseeable future, in their day, and those days have passed. Don't see what's different about Android..err..iOS. ;)

But that's just my opinion.
 
ziege said:
... my iPad mostly sits in a cradle at home, while the Xoom goes everywhere with me. It's little things like having a GPS built in, ...
Click to expand...

Uhh, my iPad has a GPS built in. You bought the wrong model.

(3G iPad has a GPS chipset and you do not have to activate 3G service with AT&T to utilize it. I don't. Turning on Cellular Data once in a while will update the clock accurately though, still without paying for any service.)
 
Oops. Was reading old posts. I see Kent covered that and you danced like the chick in Flashdance when he called you on it. Ha. ;)

Fun stuff. :popcorn:
 
denverpilot said:
You bought the wrong model.
Click to expand...

Nope. I bought the right one.

They are development tools. I use them as well (to see how others are doing things if nothing else) but if I didn't have a job to do with them I wouldn't have them. I wouldn't have the older iPhones and Android devices that are sitting in drawers either.

The stuff I develop doesn't need location info, and I'm not going to add another data plan when all of my phones can tether via wifi, so why would I waste money on a 3G model?

Still, when you figure that the Wifi iPad and Wifi Xoom cost about the same amount, the fact that the Xoom has GPS and the iPad doesn't should shame Apple deeply. Why does Apple keep fragmenting their product lines like that? Why, to get more money of course.

denverpilot said:
Oops. Was reading old posts. I see Kent covered that and you danced like the chick in Flashdance when he called you on it. Ha. ;)

Fun stuff. :popcorn:
Click to expand...
Shrug.

Call it a dance, but there are differences in what people value. To me it's kinda a Toyota vs. Subaru thing. That's not a perfect simile but close. Lotsa happy Toyota owners. It isn't a mistake to buy a Toyota...but at the same time you don't get some of the capabilities either. Subarus are uglier and are a bit rougher around some edges but they can do things that the equivalent Toyotas can't.

In this case the difference is both more subtle (both are pretty slick, though the edge clearly goes to the iPad) and more overt (Android devices are, dollar for dollar, more capable/the Android OS itself is more empowering) but the fact remains that if you want slick and polished, the iPad is the winner. Just like Toyota.
 
ziege said:
Nope. I bought the right one.

They are development tools. I use them as well (to see how others are doing things if nothing else) but if I didn't have a job to do with them I wouldn't have them. I wouldn't have the older iPhones and Android devices that are sitting in drawers either.

The stuff I develop doesn't need location info, and I'm not going to add another data plan when all of my phones can tether via wifi, so why would I waste money on a 3G model?
Still, when you figure that the Wifi iPad and Wifi Xoom cost about the same amount, the fact that the Xoom has GPS and the iPad doesn't should shame Apple deeply. Why does Apple keep fragmenting their product lines like that? Why, to get more money of course.


Shrug.

Call it a dance, but there are differences in what people value. To me it's kinda a Toyota vs. Subaru thing. That's not a perfect simile but close. Lotsa happy Toyota owners. It isn't a mistake to buy a Toyota...but at the same time you don't get some of the capabilities either. Subarus are uglier and are a bit rougher around some edges but they can do things that the equivalent Toyotas can't.

In this case the difference is both more subtle (both are pretty slick, though the edge clearly goes to the iPad) and more overt (Android devices are, dollar for dollar, more capable/the Android OS itself is more empowering) but the fact remains that if you want slick and polished, the iPad is the winner. Just like Toyota.
Click to expand...

The 16GB 3G iPad costs $30 more than the 32GB wifi only Xoom.

Also, you're not required to sign up for the data plan.

I'm sure that you knew both of these facts, but I'm just clarifying for anybody that might be reading this thread...as it seems like you're walking the fine line between fact and FUD.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
If he wants a GPS, why wouldn't he buy a 3G iPad? You don't have to have a service plan for it to work.
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Why pay double the price for a feature he won't use? GPS comes stock in every Android tablet I've seen so far, and the price point is generally about 1/2 that of the iPad2 3G....but the iPad has less features, slower hardware, worse camera and the annoyance of iTunes.

At least Apple is ripping off Android's cloud features and calling it their own. That will help remove the need for iTunes.

Pretty sure iCloud will cost money though. Score yet another one for the free service that Android provides that does the exact same thing.

But switching from one to the other means buying all your apps over again, and that's where they exist on Android at all.
Click to expand...

But....when Foreflight costs like $150 a year, and Naviator costs $49/year, how long does it take to make up that cost? Not very long...like...less than one year.

So, in terms of the aviation world, the iPad is going to be the leader for quite some time, and it's not going to go away for a VERY VERY long time - So, ForeFlight doesn't really have the motivation to go to Android. Others will play in that space, but ForeFlight is doing quite well sticking with iOS.
Click to expand...

The exact same thing was said about the iPhone - Android can't take off, it is spread across too many versions and too many platforms! iPhone will be king for a year. Fast forward 6 months - suddenly iPhone is playing second fiddle behind Android.

For your reference, there are only a few versions of Android out there that are still on current devices (not the ones that are years old):

2.2.x
2.3.x
3.x (for tablets only)

All current tablets run 3.x, all phones run either 2.2.x or 2.3.x. And the hardware between devices is amazingly similar....not that an app programmer cares about the hardware. For aviation apps, they really need to have 3 features, and don't need to worry about the brand name of the feature, since Android handles the hooks for them:

1. GPS (AFAIK, every android device period has this)
2. Accellerometer (Only needed for certain uses, and pretty much every device has this)
3. Data connection (Wifi or 3G, matters not)

So the "multiple platform" argument doesn't work. You've got 3 platforms, and aside from some VERY remote instances, 3.x will run 2.x apps without issues. I've seen 2 issues so far.
 
FlyNE said:
The 16GB 3G iPad costs $30 more than the 32GB wifi only Xoom.

Also, you're not required to sign up for the data plan.

I'm sure that you knew both of these facts, but I'm just clarifying for anybody that might be reading this thread...as it seems like you're walking the fine line between fact and FUD.
Click to expand...


iPad 3G 16GB version: $629 (minimum required to use an aviation app like ForeFlight)
Asus Eee Pad 16GB, WiFi Only: $399 (minimum required to use an aviation app like Naviator)

They're not comparable. They won't be comparable until an iPad comes out with a GPS that doesn't require 3g.
 
SkyHog said:
Why pay double the price for a feature he won't use? GPS comes stock in every Android tablet I've seen so far, and the price point is generally about 1/2 that of the iPad2 3G....
Click to expand...

Half? I want some of what you're smoking. Half would be $314.50.

but the iPad has less features, slower hardware, worse camera and the annoyance of iTunes.
Click to expand...

Less features? Meh... If you're checking boxes in a grid on a pamphlet or web site, maybe. But the difference in the checked boxes is very small, and the usability pushes the equation the other way. To each his own.

Slower hardware? I don't think so.

Worse camera(s)? Yeah. I won't defend that at all, the iPad 2's cameras suck. Front-facing camera, I expect to suck because it's gonna be used for Skype or FaceTime. The camera on the other side has no excuse for sucking as much as it does.

iTunes, due to the way it has evolved, could be considered a tad on the kludgy side, but it works pretty well for the most part.

Pretty sure iCloud will cost money though. Score yet another one for the free service that Android provides that does the exact same thing.
Click to expand...

No, iCloud will be free. Nice try though.

But....when Foreflight costs like $150 a year, and Naviator costs $49/year, how long does it take to make up that cost? Not very long...like...less than one year.
Click to expand...

ForeFlight is only $75 unless you need georeferenced approach plates. I would love to see Naviator in action, but I'm pretty sure it falls well short of ForeFlight's functionality - ForeFlight has been around for 4+ years now to get to where they are. Nobody's going to just duplicate that overnight.

The exact same thing was said about the iPhone - Android can't take off, it is spread across too many versions and too many platforms! iPhone will be king for a year. Fast forward 6 months - suddenly iPhone is playing second fiddle behind Android.
Click to expand...

I don't remember anybody every saying Android couldn't take off. Apple's biggest problem there was the stupid AT&T exclusivity agreement. There are a LOT of people who absolutely hated AT&T and refused to go there, even for the iPhone - Then when the Android devices came out first on Verizon and the others, their subscribers got into Android instead.
 
TripleZ said:
$200 for XM WX adapter, wonder what the service would cost. (Free would be great....... ie, included in Foreflight)
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Same as it costs on any other device for XM WX - $30, $50, or $100 per month depending on what products you want. For me, the $50 is the minimum acceptable due to the lack of lightning info on the $30 plan.

That's why I'm waiting for ADS-B. No service plan required...
 
TripleZ said:
$200 for XM WX adapter, wonder what the service would cost. (Free would be great....... ie, included in Foreflight)

Late second quarter.... hmmmmmmm I might need to get me one of these. Maybe I should wait till after EAA to pick up a Garmin.
Click to expand...

A little more study showed that the $199 is for THEIR weather adapter; you still need the $599 WxWorx receiver, plus the subscription.

I'm starting to think a Aera or used 496 might be the most affordable and compact option. I don't want to create (or carry and manage) a rat's nest.
 
bluesky74656 said:
Nick, have you used Naviator? Does it hold up against ForeFlight?
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I have not used ForeFlight yet, but I can say this: Naviator does everything a pilot could possibly want except provide geo-referenced plates. It is still a young program, so new features are added on a near weekly basis at the moment.

I have, in fact, used Naviator, and I am planning on taking a video soon showing it in use as an informational piece.
 
SkyHog said:
At least Apple is ripping off Android's cloud features and calling it their own. That will help remove the need for iTunes.
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Yup, breaking ground on one of the world's largest datacenters a couple of YEARS ago is turned into "ripping off Android" in you head, now that it's almost completed.

Giving all users the iCloud stuff for free isn't exactly a small back-end engineering job to do it right, ya know? Haha. Golden FUD man, truly golden.

You're an entertaining case study in anti-Apple sentiment overshadowing all possible facts. I have another friend like you. He's fun to poke at with a stick too.

:popcorn:

If you wanted to pick on Apple you should have started with "What kind of servers will they be running in that datacenter?" Xserve and moreso, Xraid aren't production quality boxes at that scale. And they don't make any SAN devices.

Most of us want them to release OSX to certified server hardware that they didn't build. They're an awful server company. Workgroup servers maybe, but their price-point on those things suck.

That said, at mid-scale, they're good. I know a guy who handles all IT, telephony, and networking at a 170 person company with Apple boxes by himself. He's like the Maytag repairman. Surprised when any of it breaks. I'd kill for that IT job. His budget is 20% higher than equivalent Windows boxen, but he has zero staff and no salaries or benefits to pay to a fleet of Windows admins, so he's making money on the decision. It's a company full of graphic artists so they're all quite happy on their Macs.
 
denverpilot said:
If you wanted to pick on Apple you should have started with "What kind of servers will they be running in that datacenter?" Xserve and moreso, Xraid aren't production quality boxes at that scale. And they don't make any SAN devices.
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XServe is dead anyway. They killed 'em off probably a year ago.
 
FlyNE said:
The 16GB 3G iPad costs $30 more than the 32GB wifi only Xoom.
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Yeah, but I needed an iPad and an Android tablet. So the real comparison is:

$682 - approximate price of a 16GB 3G iPad, with taxes
$535 - what I paid for my iPad, with a slight discount and sales tax included.
-----------
$147 - extra charge for an iPad with GPS, a feature I didn't need to do my job.

I'd rather spend that money flying, thanks.

Even accepting the comparison you made, your price difference is wrong. I paid $579 for my wifi Xoom. Got some free swag with it too. IIRC the 3G iPad is hard to find for less than $629 (I think I found about $5 off...absurd...so we'll go with standard pricing) and of course you get nothin' free with an Apple. Add tax (8.25% here) for $626.77 Xoom, and basicaly $681.96 for the 16GB iPad 3G...that's over a $55.

So, no... the irrelevant comparison yields a $55 difference, and the relevant comparison shows a $147 difference. Not a huge amount of money, but not an amount I want to throw away just for giggles either.
 
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Spent some time over the weekend playing with Naviator and Navzilla on the Xoom and Foreflight on iPad. I didn't fly with any of them but I did some planning and had one or the other on the pax seat of my car as I drove out to the airport, made my "no go" decision, and drove back.

Xoom w/ HC 3.1 kicks the iPad's ass. It's a better user experience, more powerful, more capable. Sorry, that's how I see it. :)

Foreflight kicks Naviator's ass just as hard. Navzilla is still beta so I'll it's not a fair comparison, yet.

There may be realities I didn't get to see since I didn't fly, but from my perspective Foreflight wins the software comparison from a usability/features/coolness perspective. The gap isn't insurmountable but it's real and should be considered if you are making a buying decision.

If someone was buying a tablet primarily for flying, I'd say Foreflight is a very good choice and if that means iPad then get an iPad. If someone was buying primarily for normal use (web, email, documents, games, etc.) it would come down to whether they were a form or function person. If they were primarily interested in a powerful experience that enables the user, the Android 3.1 wins by a mile. If they are primarily interested in something that shows off well, the iOS tablet wins by a mile. In either case they can use it in the cockpit too. They ALL go a long way towards "good enough" and if I hadn't done a side-by-side comparison I would've been really impressed with whichever one I looked at.

Incidentals....

Naviator is a bit nicer to trial users. You can download everything just as you would with a paid subscription (none of this "bulk downloads unavailable") and have load airport info/charts en mass.

Naviator subscriptions are cheaper ($49.99/yr vs $74.99/yr), and looking over their forum it looks like they are actively improving so maybe it'll be an "ask me again in six months" question (though what isn't when it comes to this stuff?) with rapid changes in Naviator vs. a relatively mature interface in Foreflight.

I get the feeling that Naviator and Foreflight are aiming for different destinations. Foreflight wants to be on the knee, Naviator wants to be on the panel. Not sure if that's just an impression but there are differences in how you lay out an app depending on where you expect a person's hand and eye to be, and Foreflight is more "eyes start at the top" while Naviator is more "eyes start in the middle" if that makes more sense. Middle is where your eyes go when you look at a display on a panel. Top is where they go when you look at a page or clipboard. Maybe I'm giving them credit for too much nuance but I think about those things so I figure the developers of these apps do too.

That's my take as of 6/26/11.
 
SkyHog said:
I have not used ForeFlight yet, but I can say this: Naviator does everything a pilot could possibly want except provide geo-referenced plates. It is still a young program, so new features are added on a near weekly basis at the moment.

I have, in fact, used Naviator, and I am planning on taking a video soon showing it in use as an informational piece.
Click to expand...

No it doesn't. I have it. It's ok, but its not even close yet.
 
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