foreclosure, will you come?

olasek

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olasek
A friend of mine (a single guy, btw. he is a very young police officer) bought a condo in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2005 for about $250,000, unfortunately it was almost at the peak of the market. This condo is now worth not even 1/2 of that. Recently he made a calculated decision that he was no longer willing to carry this mortgage and let go of the property. He stopped making mortgage payments at the end of 2011 (though he continues to pay association fees). He was counting on getting some nasty letters and be out of the property within a few months (he's got plans where to go) but so far not a single letter, nothing. I spoke with him only yesterday - he still lives in the condo and nobody bothers him.
 
If he wants out of it that bad, why not approach the mortgage holder about a short sale and put it on the market?
 
If he wants out of it that bad, why not approach the mortgage holder about a short sale and put it on the market?
He did research that. He was told he would not qualify for a short sale, his income is too high.
 
With the mortgage holder, he researched it?
It costs the mortgage holders so much to do a foreclosure, that many will take a short sale rather than a foreclosure.
 
Around here we have people walking away from their houses right and left. When you buy an expensive house with zero down and you have negligeable equity in the house, there is no economic incentive to do other than quit paying when it's value goes upside down. It's basically an apartment rental at that point.
 
I'm not quite following. Has some hardship befallen him that precludes him from making mortgage payments?
 
No hardship, just economic calculation (I thought it was clear from the story), he is not unique, many do exactly the same. His credit score will be messed up for a few years - again, part of this overall calculus.
 
Shadow inventory. Banks aren't foreclosing because that would drive prices even lower on the stuff they are already holding and trying to offload. His situation is common, whenever they start prattling on about housing recoveries remember there are tons of these out there, not on the market and not counted as foreclosed. He should keep doing what he is doing, with an escape plan if need be, it is working for him, his neighbors, and the bank.
 
It is some difficult times we live in.. BUT...

He put his signature on a mortgage and promised to pay it in good faith... Now he has cold feet and quits paying 10 months ago and continues to live in the property. To me that is FRAUD and as a LEO he is sworn to uphold the law... Apparently he is above the law. IMHO. YMMV.:mad:
 
It is some difficult times we live in.. BUT...

He put his signature on a mortgage and promised to pay it in good faith... Now he has cold feet and quits paying 10 months ago and continues to live in the property. To me that is FRAUD and as a LEO he is sworn to uphold the law... Apparently he is above the law. IMHO. YMMV.:mad:

Agree, some integrity issues there IMHO.
 
Agree, some integrity issues there IMHO.

Not in my opinion. Read the mortgage contract. If you don't pay, they foeclose. It's you're right to not pay (default) and they have the right to foreclose if you do. There's nothing "patriotic" about staying in an underwater house. The banks caused this mess, you don't owe them a penny. We already bailed them out once, By continuing to pay, you're bailing them out for a second time.
 
It is some difficult times we live in.. BUT...

He put his signature on a mortgage and promised to pay it in good faith... Now he has cold feet and quits paying 10 months ago and continues to live in the property. To me that is FRAUD and as a LEO he is sworn to uphold the law... Apparently he is above the law. IMHO. YMMV.:mad:


Agree. If you're gonna foreclose, fine, move out and rent something else but don't stay living in it. Complete lack of integrity and a police officer at that. It's called an investment, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet and take a loss. :nono:
 
Agree, some integrity issues there IMHO.

I used to feel that way too...ultimately, however, since we don't have a debtors prison, its a legit and legal way to deal with a potential problem, and one that many businesses and businessman do all the time.

Ultimately, if it makes sense to pay it off, pay it off. If it doesn't, don't. There's no ethics in finance.
 
Not to turn this into a political debate, but if our leaders had some integrity, he wouldn't have been in this mess in the first place.

How does him agreeing to pay a negotiated price for this property and reneging on the agreement have anything whatsoever to do with our leaders? He hasn't fallen on hard times and even if he had, the decision was his. I don't want to believe for a minute that Mitt was right, but situations like this support the stereotype.

Personal responsibility, what a concept...
 
I hope his plans for "where to go" don't involve getting another loan.
If there was any justice in the world he'd not get another for a long time.

I bought at the top of the market as well, and when I had to sell after a job location (after having rented it for a couple of years), I had to bring five figures to the closing table in order to sell.
 
The OP stated he COULD make the payments but chose not to. Why???
Only that person knows that.
You bought the house, you have the ability to make the payments and choose not to?
That is an integrity issue IMHO.
 
The OP stated he COULD make the payments but chose not to. Why???
Only that person knows that.
You bought the house, you have the ability to make the payments and choose not to?
That is an integrity issue IMHO.

But - along those same lines, Mark, if a business invests in something, has the ability to pay it down, but it costs more money to pay it off than its worth, it will usually walk away from the investment. I don't really see the difference.

Again - no ethics in finance. Do what makes the most sense for yourself. No one else is looking out for you.
 
Nick,
You lost me.
This person can make the payments according to the OP.
He just decided NOT TO. Being upside down has NOTHING to do with making payments on something that you agreed to.
NOW, if he wants to move somewhere else (which we don't know), that could be another story.
But NO ONE is upside down in a property till they want to sell it.
 
Tell me what ongoing concern simply walks away from a debt and gets away with it?
You've lost me on that analogy.
 
Total moral eclipse.

Strategic defaults are happening all over the country. Our culture is becoming one in which personal responsibility is old fashioned.

You made your deal. Live with it.

If the market had gone gangbusters would he have declined to take profits from the house's sale? Of course not. Buying a house is making an investment. Sometimes your investsments lose money. This baloney that the housing meltdown is somehow the bank's fault is like a crack addict blaming the dealer for his problem.
 
I hope his plans for "where to go" don't involve getting another loan.
If there was any justice in the world he'd not get another for a long time.

I bought at the top of the market as well, and when I had to sell after a job location (after having rented it for a couple of years), I had to bring five figures to the closing table in order to sell.

Just playing devil's advocate..

If the market was booming, the bank would foreclose as soon as they legally could, sell the house for a profit and pocket the money. Their excuse would be "we took the risk on this property by issuing you a loan with a tiny down payment, and you did not pay"

Now, banks DO consider your own personal financial situation and ability to pay when issuing a loan, but when doing a loan with a low down payment on something worth 250k assuming a relatively low net worth individual, they are using their assumption of the future value of the home as the primary collateral for a loan. In other words, they don't care about your 'word' or ability to earn income.

I probably could not get an unsecured personal loan for 15k but I bet a bank would be happy to loan me 200k for a house.
 
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Total moral eclipse.

Strategic defaults are happening all over the country. Our culture is becoming one in which personal responsibility is old fashioned.

You made your deal. Live with it.

If the market had gone gangbusters would he have declined to take profits from the house's sale? Of course not. Buying a house is making an investment. Sometimes your investsments lose money. This baloney that the housing meltdown is somehow the bank's fault is like a crack addict blaming the dealer for his problem.

See above post
 
Agree. If you're gonna foreclose, fine, move out and rent something else but don't stay living in it. Complete lack of integrity and a police officer at that. It's called an investment, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Sometimes you gotta bite the bullet and take a loss. :nono:

The banks don't want the deadbeats to move out because the property falls into worse disrepair than if someone is living in it.

Welcome to Moral Hazard. If someone doesn't pay their side of a contract and the leinholder has a significant reason not to make them pay, the system is completely unable to deal with it.

The bank doesn't want to move the distressed property to the negative side of their balance sheet. They also don't want it losing more value by being vacant and vandalized.

The fix, is of course, to tighten up requirements for payments as the same as foreclosure on the bank's books. They shouldn't be allowed to carry it with no payments made for multiple years on the (maybe someday we hope) positive side of their balance sheet.

The government will not force that upon their favorite banks who not only were required to take some of these deadbeat mortgages from failed institutions, but also get special favors at the Fed to remain solvent.

If they had to mark these properties to their market value on their balance sheets, a large number of U.S. banks would be insolvent and required to be taken over by FDIC and parted out. Government would end up with the bad debt and the banks would effectively go through the cream of the crop and cherry pick the profitable mortgages to buy for pennies on the dollar.

The banks will whine and scream in the current situation that they're not required to foreclose.

It's a ****-sandwich for those of us who've never over-bought on housing nor missed a payment on our mortgages (even with a year out of work in my case), because we played by the so-called rules (which turned out to be imaginary) and folks like this Class-A jerk don't and guess who gets government special treatment for refinancing, backing to force his lender to negotiate, etc... while the rest of us who are paying our bills get the socialized higher taxes and Fed games to drive up inflation to "fix" the problem.

They're not even close to fixing it. Anyone who believes the press that the mortgage crisis is over, isn't paying any attention at all. If there are normal folk, police officers even, who are still 50% upside down in mortgages, there isn't a fix for that until the bank forces the issue or renegotiates, neither of which is to their benefit.

There is roughly zero chance that:

A) He'll take three jobs to service his debts he signed up for. Not in small part because jobs are hard to find.

B) He'll magically increase his income by a large enough margin to start paying again any time soon.

Everyone says "the banks created this!" and they did, but there is plenty of leadership and government blame to go around. The majority of bad loans weren't loaned "naked" by the banks. They were both backed by government (Fannie and Freddie) and the insurance companies (AIG). Government was highly involved.
 
But - along those same lines, Mark, if a business invests in something, has the ability to pay it down, but it costs more money to pay it off than its worth, it will usually walk away from the investment. I don't really see the difference.

Again - no ethics in finance. Do what makes the most sense for yourself. No one else is looking out for you.

It wouldn't be so bad if he had walked away. Instead, he's squatting. Blatantly irresponsible.
 
It wouldn't be so bad if he had walked away. Instead, he's squatting. Blatantly irresponsible.


Actually, that's a fair point. Forget anything I said, that only applies if he picks up and leaves. But living in the house without paying for it? That's bad stuff right there.
 
Actually, that's a fair point. Forget anything I said, that only applies if he picks up and leaves. But living in the house without paying for it? That's bad stuff right there.

I tend to agree with that. But remember, they could have him evicted for a song. It's their property, i'm sure they've checked on it and know he's living there.
 
Buying a house is making an investment.

Big fallacy used to sell mortgages. Most people don't buy houses, they buy mortgages. The bank built the house. And owns it. Right up until your last payment.

And, worse... Try not paying the taxes on the land under the house, even if you own it free and clear otherwise and see if government auctions it out from under you. You won't get the option to pick it up and move it. It'll just magically be someone else's who's willing to pay the back taxes.

Buying something on 15-30 years of leverage that you call an "investment" is a damn risky investment strategy. Nobody looks at it that way properly, though.

No shoebox was ever worth 1/4 million to 1/2 million dollars at current salary levels. Prices could have never soared if it weren't for government backing bad loans and handing out free money via their banking buddies who buy them nice Washington dinners.

The cultural "everyone deserves a house" is also a logical fallacy used to manipulate folks into lifelong enslaving debt.

As long as median salaries don't keep up with inflation, the problem won't be able to correct itself any faster.
 
Big fallacy used to sell mortgages. Most people don't buy houses, they buy mortgages. The bank built the house. And owns it. Right up until your last payment.

And, worse... Try not paying the taxes on the land under the house, even if you own it free and clear otherwise and see if government auctions it out from under you. You won't get the option to pick it up and move it. It'll just magically be someone else's who's willing to pay the back taxes.

Buying something on 15-30 years of leverage that you call an "investment" is a damn risky investment strategy. Nobody looks at it that way properly, though.

No shoebox was ever worth 1/4 million to 1/2 million dollars at current salary levels. Prices could have never soared if it weren't for government backing bad loans and handing out free money via their banking buddies who buy them nice Washington dinners.

The cultural "everyone deserves a house" is also a logical fallacy used to manipulate folks into lifelong enslaving debt.

As long as median salaries don't keep up with inflation, the problem won't be able to correct itself any faster.

As I said before NO ONE is upside down in a house till they try to sell it. Period!
Not many salary's have been cut and they bought the place making xxx, so either they couldn't make the payments from the beginning or have decided not to.
 
Big fallacy used to sell mortgages. Most people don't buy houses, they buy mortgages. The bank built the house. And owns it. Right up until your last payment.

I know some people who are my age that just got married, have a kid on the way, are uneducated but the father is hard working... they 'bought' a house but you are completely right. It was a starter home newly built and they didn't pay a dollar down on the place. The guy works but drifts from job to job

For those wealthier individuals who put a big chunk of cash down and get a low interest rate based on their ability to pay, it's an investment. Otherwise, you are right sir..
 
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Here's how I look at home ownership/mortgage:
1) I bought a house for $x
2) The bank loaned me $y to be able to do that.
3) Each month I make payments to the bank to repay that loan (and the sooner I pay it off, the better. I really dislike borrowing)
4) In the meantime, I have this nifty roof over my head. The "value" of this house to me is unchanged -- it met my needs when I purchased and continues to do so. (Actually, when the value goes down, I pay less in property taxes. So, I've got that going for me.)

As a result of the above, I plan on continuing to keep up my end of the bargain with the bank (as much as I dislike them!)
 
As I said before NO ONE is upside down in a house till they try to sell it. Period!
Not many salary's have been cut and they bought the place making xxx, so either they couldn't make the payments from the beginning or have decided not to.

About 4 years ago, it was almost a daily occurrence to read somewhere or hear about someone who bought a house they couldn't afford because they expected it to rise in value. I never could quite understand the logic there.
 
Here's how I look at home ownership/mortgage:
1) I bought a house for $x
2) The bank loaned me $y to be able to do that.
3) Each month I make payments to the bank to repay that loan (and the sooner I pay it off, the better. I really dislike borrowing)
4) In the meantime, I have this nifty roof over my head. The "value" of this house to me is unchanged -- it met my needs when I purchased and continues to do so. (Actually, when the value goes down, I pay less in property taxes. So, I've got that going for me.)

As a result of the above, I plan on continuing to keep up my end of the bargain with the bank (as much as I dislike them!)

That's how I look at it but with the exception that lower income folks aren't loaned money based on their ability to pay, but on the bank's interpretation of the value of the home. They also get a higher interest rate.
 
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That's how I look at it but with the exception that lower income folks aren't loaned money based on their ability to pay, but on the bank's interpretation of the value of the home.

True, but I would argue that is the individual's own responsibility to determine whether or not they can afford the loan. Not "well, I must be able to afford it because the bank approved me"
 
Big fallacy used to sell mortgages. Most people don't buy houses, they buy mortgages. The bank built the house. And owns it. Right up until your last payment.

Dunno 'bout your house but not mine. The bank owns a share and I own a share. They can force a sale if I stop paying interest and purchasing their share but they cannot simply take my share. Proceeds from the sale go first towards their share and any interest and sellers expense. After that the money would come to me. Of course before foreclosing the bank would attempt to loan me enough to continue payments so they could take the entire property at foreclosure and then sue me (and attempt to collect) for any remaining debt.

It's an ugly business but I'd rather do this than rent.
 
It is just like a casino.
interest rate=house take
Just numbers on a paper, has nothing to do with fraud or americanism
sometimes you win/lose
 
How does him agreeing to pay a negotiated price for this property and reneging on the agreement have anything whatsoever to do with our leaders? He hasn't fallen on hard times and even if he had, the decision was his. I don't want to believe for a minute that Mitt was right, but situations like this support the stereotype.

Personal responsibility, what a concept...

Again, I did not want to make this political.

I agree if he is living there, there is a integrity issue. However anyone who borrows or loans money, is doing so with an expected risk. The reason interest rate are what they are, is you expect a percentage of people to default.

I know nothing about this man, but let's say he has a sick grandmother who's medical bills he is paying, and has the option to either pay for his home, or pay for her to not die.

What's more ethical, or moral?
 
It wouldn't be so bad if he had walked away. Instead, he's squatting. Blatantly irresponsible.

While I agree, I sure hope you don't use now, or ever plan to use, an ad blocker, because at an ethical level you're doing the same thing.

(I don't use one)
 
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What does the young officer do when his new car has depreciated 50% is his answer to quit making payments because it lost some value?

Common trend among the young, they take no responsibility for their actions and it's always someone else's fault.

It's simple, he signed the contract therefore he has an obligation to pay the payment. To me his actions demonstrate a total lack of integrity even if he's a police officer. Who is he going to ***** about when his credit sucks due to his irresponsible actions? I'm sure it will be the banks fault or anyone else's but his.

These kinda people make me sick, most of us bust our asses or have busted them in the past to earn what they have. Now it's common practice to walk away from ones obligations without any perceived repercussions. Maybe I should buy into some apartment complexes to house folks like this, with this trend it could be darn good investment!
 
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