For those who don't have ADSB......

[docmirror]

The non-electrical exemption remains but as before only applies to aircraft originally certificated with no electrical system.

Thank you, but where did you find that? I hunted, and hunted for it on the ADS-B info page from the FAA, and even tried reading through the coming mandate, but never read anything. I guess I thought it would go away.

As for applying to planes certified without elec systems, I wonder how they are going to handle EXP-no elec gen? We flew a Pietenpol through a mode-C veil without any squawk a few years back, just thinking if it will stay or not.

 

[Stewartb]

3. Requests for Deviations From ADS–B Out Requirements
This rule requires operators to broadcast ADS–B Out information when operating in specified airspace. If an aircraft is not capable of meeting the performance requirements, the operator may request a deviation from the ATC facility responsible for that airspace. However, as noted in the NPRM, ATC authorizations may contain conditions necessary to provide the appropriate level of safety for all operators in the airspace. ATC may not be able to grant authorizations in all cases for a variety of reasons, including workload, runway configurations, air traffic flows, and weather conditions.

source: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-05-28/pdf/2010-12645.pdf

 

[ejensen]

Showing the entire Class B is interesting but not very useful. How does it do with a reasonable scale. My mode S work great even at 3 mile scale. I'm just north of Denver and get traffic down to 500' in the pattern.

 

[coloradobluesky]

You can fly below 2500' AGL without it. They are sort of creating a new airspace, above 2500'AGL and below 2500'AGL. But right now, if you in the mode C veil you are supposed to be going to have it, although they are trying to get that changed. All IFR flights are more than 2500'AGL above the ground is the reasoning.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Single box solutions are appearing. To get OUT, either replace your transponder or put another box on the firewall behind. Then you will have OUT. Cheapest way to get the IN will be with an IPAD or similar. The OUT will require an additional GPS antenna because the unit needs WAAS GPS (unless you already have a WAAS GPS).

 

[jhflyboy]

Kind of shocked about some of the comments on this.

Not looking at it because you don't fly into class B or class C? That doesn't make much sense.

1 year ago - flying in southern Louisiana to a non-controlled field. Was just turning to enter the downwind to the pattern and noticed something yellow on my iPad showing traffic in close proximity off my left. Looked out the window and saw a helicopter coming up and right at me. He was cutting diagonally across the field right at traffic pattern altitude and wasn't on frequency. Have no idea where he came from.

Not sure how close it would have been if I hadn't been warned, but it was still closer than I liked. And no - even though my eyeballs were outside the cockpit right before that - I never picked him up.

Granted - I was lucky he obviously had ADSB-out - but as more and more people meet the requirement, IMO, this will become more and more of a valuable tool for all pilots regardless of where they fly.

 

[Stewartb]

Single box solutions are appearing. To get OUT, either replace your transponder or put another box on the firewall behind. Then you will have OUT. Cheapest way to get the IN will be with an IPAD or similar. The OUT will require an additional GPS antenna because the unit needs WAAS GPS (unless you already have a WAAS GPS).

What about the newest ADS-B rule that says you aren't a client unless you're transmitting ADS-B out? How does that play into the iPad "in" solution? I have a GDL39 but never use traffic so I haven't been concerned with the new rule.

 

[docmirror]

Kind of shocked about some of the comments on this.

Not looking at it because you don't fly into class B or class C? That doesn't make much sense.

1 year ago - flying in southern Louisiana to a non-controlled field. Was just turning to enter the downwind to the pattern and noticed something yellow on my iPad showing traffic in close proximity off my left. Looked out the window and saw a helicopter coming up and right at me. He was cutting diagonally across the field right at traffic pattern altitude and wasn't on frequency. Have no idea where he came from.

Not sure how close it would have been if I hadn't been warned, but it was still closer than I liked. And no - even though my eyeballs were outside the cockpit right before that - I never picked him up.

Granted - I was lucky he obviously had ADSB-out - but as more and more people meet the requirement, IMO, this will become more and more of a valuable tool for all pilots regardless of where they fly.

Maybe if you hadn't been head down looking at your iPad, and had your head outside scanning you would have seen the rotary wing, right where he belonged.

If you're shocked that some people want to fly without publishing all their info to the world constantly, well - that shocks me. I guess Big Brother needs all info on all people all the time. Hence the surveillance cameras reading my car plate everywhere all the time.

 

[LuisO]

Does foreflight issue warnings when traffic gets too close ?

...no

That was a very categorical answer. Do you have ForeFlight with a Stratus?

I do, and I get both aural and visual warnings when traffic is close. Connecting the iPad to my Lightspeed's via Bluetooth gets my attention very quickly.

 

[docmirror]

That was a very categorical answer. Do you have ForeFlight with a Stratus?

I do, and I get both aural and visual warnings when traffic is close. Connecting the iPad to my Lightspeed's via Bluetooth gets my attention very quickly.

I wasn't replying to the post you have quoted, because I didn't quote that post.

My 'no' was I do not have, nor will I be getting ADS-B. At all. Ever. I don't have an IPad, Stratus, Lightspeed or Bluetooth.

Have a nice day.

 

[N5922S]

I'm not one of those anti-tech fogies that thinks anything 'new-fangled' is bad. Far from it, I would love to participate in the program. If there was any way I could turn the unit on, and squawk something like 1200 just showing where I am and still remain anon, I'd buy one up in a second.

My understanding though is that once you turn it on, you are out there, naked to the world. Not gonna do it.

I'm with you. It's not that I have any evil intentions -- just not comfortable with "Big Brother" watching me.

 

[Henning]

I wasn't replying to the post you have quoted, because I didn't quote that post.

My 'no' was I do not have, nor will I be getting ADS-B. At all. Ever. I don't have an IPad, Stratus, Lightspeed or Bluetooth.

Have a nice day.

That's cool, you'll just have to stay on your lawn all by yourself... with your pants pulled up to your nipples...

I find it funny that people would reject a source of information, but hey, it's all good; I've become accustomed to hearing the phrase, "I don't want to think about it" as well.

For less than $1500 I have weather, traffic, as well as 2D & 3D nav including AHRS to incorporate that information into my overall situational awareness picture in under a 2 second glance for everything including navigation. Compare this to traditional navigation which requires considerably more heads down time in charts and working radios, diailing in the OBS to find your crossing radial... All that stuff ate tons of window time. Traffic services required radar participation to get the same warning at a distance.

The more information I can get in a compressed but comprehendable form, the less time I have to spend getting it, and the more time I can look out the window.

 

[Stewartb]

The illusion of being a rebel. The very moment you crash and get hurt you'll want them to know where you are, right?

Do you have a cell phone? Credit cards? Heck, I now have an enhanced driver license. I was told by DMV that my face is mapped and entered into a national database for facial recognition. Traffic cams are everywhere these days. They already know where I am.

 

[James331]

What about weather? You're in OK and you have no desire for weather? It's all of a few hundred bucks to get all the IN products on a variety of devices.

The Metars and Tafs would be nice, already cheaper solutions to gettin that info in the air, but the NEXRAD isn't that useful in T-storm country, especially for tactical short range use.

What about the newest ADS-B rule that says you aren't a client unless you're transmitting ADS-B out? How does that play into the iPad "in" solution? I have a GDL39 but never use traffic so I haven't been concerned with the new rule.

Which proves to me this ain't about safety, it's about monitoring people. If this was for "saftey" or "the children" they would make in "in" available to EVERYONE.

 

[Stewartb]

It's about better managing more traffic in busy airspace. I don't get what the big deal is. I doubt anyone cares where you or I am as long as it isn't directly in the path of a 737 full of people.

Google up the FAA demo video of ABS-B in the Gulf of Mexico and see what it does for those offshore helicopter operations. It's impressive.

 

[Henning]

The illusion of being a rebel. The very moment you crash and get hurt you'll want them to know where you are, right?

Do you have a cell phone? Credit cards? Heck, I now have an enhanced driver license. I was told by DMV that my face is mapped and entered into a national database for facial recognition. Traffic cams are everywhere these days. They already know where I am.

The people who feign to privacy, yeah, that's funny. Maybe if you never travel out of the country, never get arrested, never apply for a picture ID/Driver's license, never check into a hotel or casino, have an IP address or cell phone traceable to you... you can manage to maintain a basic annonimity for a while. For the most part it's an illusion anymore. The people who think that we missed 1984 haven't been to Great Britain. Everything is on CCTV, cameras poised and pointing everywhere.

Just because you don't have an ES transponder doesn't mean they won't know who you are if they want to. There will be someone to meet you where you land who will find out. Having an ES transponder will eventually allow ATC a DSC type discreet calling. Even if you are 1200, a 121.5 call can be placed to you directly if they need your eyes on something.

Aviation is a cooperative endevour to keep safe. Information is a good thing, ADSB is a lot of good information for relatively cheap. The level of safety benefit realized is dependent on everyone cooperating. It's not a big ask for a lot of benefit to everyone's safety, not just yours. Just because you don't care to receive the traffic around you,mthat does not apply to the majority of people. A prudent pilot wants all the information available to him that concerns the safety of their flight.

To play crotchety old man and limit where you can go because you refuse to play, hey, that's your choice to make. The units to make one out compliant are now less than $2000 including internal WAAS GPS source. It also gets you all the IN products if you have a way to display them, but it's cheaper to buy a GDL-39 3D or Stratus equivalent if you don't.

 

[James331]

It's about better managing more traffic in busy airspace. I don't get what the big deal is. I doubt anyone cares where you or I am as long as it isn't directly in the path of a 737 full of people.

Google up the FAA demo video of ABS-B in the Gulf of Mexico and see what it does for those offshore helicopter operations. It's impressive.

Seems to me the current traffic management was working just fine, and if anything GA is declining and airlines are starting to hurt for pilots.

 

[Stewartb]

Y'all should be pleased to have something else to dwell on and complain about. Meanwhile, here in God's country, I won't be adding ADS-B Out even though I use ADS-B In. For the first time I have in-flight weather and TFR info. I'm smiling and from my perspective I haven't given up any freedoms at all. I like it.

 

[jhflyboy]

Maybe if you hadn't been head down looking at your iPad, and had your head outside scanning you would have seen the rotary wing, right where he belonged.

As stated - I had my head outside right up to that point. Never saw a small helicopter that was pretty much headed right for me - pretty small cross section. How many times flying cross country with flight following or on an IFR plan do you hear a traffic call from ATC and never see the traffic? Happens all the time.

Just did a flight last week - VFR from Oklahoma back to Houston which put me pretty close to to DFW Class B. Amazing how many planes I "saw" on my ADS-B that were in visual range that I never would have seen by normal scanning. I used the ADSB to help me practice visually looking for other planes. A very good tool.

Not even going to touch the big brother thing.

 

[James331]

As stated - I had my head outside right up to that point. Never saw a small helicopter that was pretty much headed right for me - pretty small cross section. How many times flying cross country with flight following or on an IFR plan do you hear a traffic call from ATC and never see the traffic? Happens all the time.

Just did a flight last week - VFR from Oklahoma back to Houston which put me pretty close to to DFW Class B. Amazing how many planes I "saw" on my ADS-B that were in visual range that I never would have seen by normal scanning. I used the ADSB to help me practice visually looking for other planes. A very good tool.

Not even going to touch the big brother thing.

But when you're looking for that target on your box 7 miles out, two o'clock will you see the neg xpdr J3 1 mile converting at 11 o'clock


As for the big bother thing, you're right, our government would never spy on its citizens and misuse that information

 

[Silvaire]

Thank you, but where did you find that?...

14 CFR 91.225 (5)(e)

 

[Henning]

But when you're looking for that target on your box 7 miles out, two o'clock will you see the neg xpdr J3 1 mile converting at 11 o'clock


As for the big bother thing, you're right, our government would never spy on its citizens and misuse that information

Government is a distraction, Big Brother is Google and Amazon, Big Brother is about targeted marketing. People have paranoid delusions about people coming for their guns and lives, but no such thing, they just want your money, and fear is the fastest easiest way to get you to give it to them. It's the speculators in all the financial and commodities markets. They are the sponges, the vampires, of society. They produce nothing, they just drain value from everything. That's why ANY usury has ALWAYS been forbidden, we just chose not to follow that rule. Everything that government does is to protect that industry.

 

[Silvaire]

You can fly below 2500' AGL without it....

Not really. The 2500 AGL exemption is there for Class E above 10,000 feet because there is terrain that wouldn't be safe to cross at 10k so you are allowed to be 2500 AGL regardless of whatever MSL that ends up being.

 

[Silvaire]

...For less than $1500 I have weather, traffic, as well as 2D & 3D nav including AHRS...

Maybe but please show us how you can comply with the ADS-B out mandate for $1500

 

[Henning]

Maybe but please show us how you can comply with the ADS-B out mandate for $1500

That is a separate $1800 box to comply with OUT. It will also get you IN if you have a display unit, but if not it's cheaper to go with a different IN device than to get an in panel display.

 

[S Joslin]

For less than $1500 I have weather, traffic, as well as 2D & 3D nav including AHRS to incorporate that information into my overall situational awareness picture in under a 2 second glance for everything including navigation. Compare this to traditional navigation which requires considerably more heads down time in charts and working radios, diailing in the OBS to find your crossing radial... All that stuff ate tons of window time. Traffic services required radar participation to get the same warning at a distance.

The more information I can get in a compressed but comprehendable form, the less time I have to spend getting it, and the more time I can look out the window.

Quick poll: For all the naysayers...How many of you haven't flown in a plane with ADSB in? For those that haven't, I'm positive you'll change your mind once you've seen it in action.

I fly in DFW and very much appreciate having it. Lots and lots of "targets" show up on the ADSB-In that I don't see and ATC doesn't call out to me. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have trouble spotting planes below me that get mixed up in the ground clutter.

 

[James331]

Quick poll: For all the naysayers...How many of you haven't flown in a plane with ADSB in? For those that haven't, I'm positive you'll change your mind once you've seen it in action.

I fly in DFW and very much appreciate having it. Lots and lots of "targets" show up on the ADSB-In that I don't see and ATC doesn't call out to me. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have trouble spotting planes below me that get mixed up in the ground clutter.

Work plane has full ADSB, my plane has TIS, it's cool but it's also a bit of a gimmick, I'll glance down at it but I'm not getting sucked into it, there's much it doesn't show, it's a OK tool but still crap compared to a good scan, many pilots would be better served working on their scan compared to buying gadgets for their plane.

Wait till 2022 or something, I'll wager the mid air collision numbers don't get better, heck wouldn't surprise me if they go the other way with folks looking at the magic screen for more answers.

 

[Morgan3820]

I'm not one of those anti-tech fogies that thinks anything 'new-fangled' is bad. Far from it, I would love to participate in the program. If there was any way I could turn the unit on, and squawk something like 1200 just showing where I am and still remain anon, I'd buy one up in a second.

My understanding though is that once you turn it on, you are out there, naked to the world. Not gonna do it.

The Navworkx box turns off the N number when sqwaking 1200

 

[champ driver]

That's cool, you'll just have to stay on your lawn all by yourself... with your pants pulled up to your nipples...

I find it funny that people would reject a source of information, but hey, it's all good; I've become accustomed to hearing the phrase, "I don't want to think about it" as well.

For less than $1500 I have weather, traffic, as well as 2D & 3D nav including AHRS to incorporate that information into my overall situational awareness picture in under a 2 second glance for everything including navigation. Compare this to traditional navigation which requires considerably more heads down time in charts and working radios, diailing in the OBS to find your crossing radial... All that stuff ate tons of window time. Traffic services required radar participation to get the same warning at a distance.

The more information I can get in a compressed but comprehendable form, the less time I have to spend getting it, and the more time I can look out the window.

It's information I don't need in my kind of flying.
Remember, I'm not flying a normal plane like a Warrior or Bonanza, travelling across the country and I'm not on the eastern seaboard or in Socal with their congested airspace.
I fly from under a Class B and going out from there in the open country. I choose to fly on only good weather days, and I can see pretty much as far as I'm going. For you other guys that travel with your planes, that's fine, more power to you and you can have all the latest goodies you want.
Me, I have to operate on battery power alone, a finite resource that must be saved to complete my flight.
I'm not against high tech, it's fine for you guys, it's just that some of us don't need it.

 

[Silvaire]

... Lots and lots of "targets" show up on the ADSB-In that I don't see and ATC doesn't call out to me...

Well yeah but those are the "lots and lots" of targets that are of no factor or threat to you. To be honest the screen shot in the originating post looks horribly cluttered. Think of an EICAS screen in an airliner, the idea is for it to mostly be blank unless something is wrong.

 

[Clark1961]

Well yeah but those are the "lots and lots" of targets that are of no factor or threat to you. To be honest the screen shot in the originating post looks horribly cluttered. Think of an EICAS screen in an airliner, the idea is for it to mostly be blank unless something is wrong.

If that's what you want it's easy enough to set up in FF. Dunno about the others. Right now I like seeing all the targets which allows me to verify the ADS-B performance.

For the nay-sayers, fly around a busy Bravo a couple times with full ADS-B capability with a display on a well positioned screen. Report back. (no, I'm not talking about zooming up to the flight levels or down from the flight levels in positive control airspace. I'm talking about flying around below the Bravo shelves where all the spam cans are)

 

[docmirror]

The Navworkx box turns off the N number when sqwaking 1200

Well, that's a nice feature. Appreciate the info.

Which I'm sure the FAA will prohibit on or before Jan 1 2020.

<edit: Appears that this is only qual for the LSA/EXP aircraft? >

 

[wsuffa]

If you wanted to track someone with a ADSB out plane, it sure would be the easiest way.

If the idiots ever go full euro with their user fee scheme I'm sure there would be some traffic camera type program that monitored and mailed out bills when ever it saw a plane on ADSB.


Frankly I'm in the same boat, it's really just not info I need to be sending out for no reason, nor is it anyone's business, same reason my tail number is blocked.

I can already track adsb planes on my home computer...

 

[S Joslin]

Well yeah but those are the "lots and lots" of targets that are of no factor or threat to you.

I beg to differ, I'd prefer to know where every plane is around me is. Then I'll decide what is a threat.

To play devil's advocate: Would you prefer to not know about all the traffic around you...and hope that you can pick it out against the ground clutter or on a hazy day?

Nothing should replace "see and avoid" but I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want the additional "situation awareness"...

 

[EdFred]

I beg to differ, I'd prefer to know where every plane is around me is. Then I'll decide what is a threat.

Define "around." Every target within 10nm? 50nm? 100nm? And why the cutoff where you have it? Why not 25% or 50% further? I mean, why not every plane in the US all at once?

I don't give a crap about planes that won't be within 2000' of me vertically.

 

[S Joslin]

Around...you know...like those that could potentially "share" the same block of airspace.

Okay, I'll take the bait. 10nm...yes - 50nm...no - 100nm...no

What cutoff?

 

[James331]

Around...you know...like those that could potentially "share" the same block of airspace.

Okay, I'll take the bait. 10nm...yes - 50nm...no - 100nm...no

What cutoff?

Too many factors, speed, type, altitude etc.

 

[oilburner]

I trust my scan fairly well, but still not as good as vintage Chuck Yeager for the more high performance type of traffic I share airspace with out here.
The TIS is nice in my plane and I'm looking forward to an upgrade to ADSB for whenever.

 

[Silvaire]

I beg to differ, I'd prefer to know where every plane is around me is. Then I'll decide what is a threat.

To play devil's advocate: Would you prefer to not know about all the traffic around you...and hope that you can pick it out against the ground clutter or on a hazy day?

Nothing should replace "see and avoid" but I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want the additional "situation awareness"...

I understand your point but I also want a pilot who is watching what he's doing and doesn't have his head down on a screen trying to determine which of the three dozen targets he sees has any bearing on him. Why have a screen cluttered with targets that are 500 feet below and moving away?

The problem is trying to paint a 3D picture on a 2D canvass and I imagine that can be addressed with software by simply interpreting which targets have meaning but there is always going to be the guy who has his range set to 40 miles and max clutter and never has time to look outside the window because of all of the inside "data" he needs to process.

As I said the design philosophy of an airliner cockpit is to be clutter free. When things are normal all annunciators on the panel are off and the screens are clear.

 

[NoHeat]

Where do you look when the screen looks like the one in the original post? Perhaps eventually the software will get to the point that it filters out all the blips that are "not a factor". At the moment, screens like that provide information overload.

The software is there already. You just have to know its features.

Excerpt from Foreflight Mobile Pilot Guide:

Use the “Filter Traffic Settings” (later in this section) to hide traffic beyond 15nm or +/- 3,500’ from your location.