James331
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James331
I'm more concerned with a LR60 at 16nm at my altitude and converging then a C152 at 8nm and attempting to converge.
For those who don't have ADSB......
- Thread starter Unit74
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I'm more concerned with a LR60 at 16nm at my altitude and converging then a C152 at 8nm and attempting to converge.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
So if you're at 3,000 you don't want to see the guy at FL320 above you. Likewise, if you're at 9000AGL you probably don't care about the 152 in the pattern below you. Not every plane like you first stated. You do have some sort of parameters besides "every."
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
ADS-B is great and it makes me appreciate the work of skilled controllers. I am now able to see what they see (to a degree).
I flew out of Addison on the Kingdom 9 departure, Wichita Falls transition (KING9.SPS) and it takes you directly over KDFW at 4000. Very amazing to watch the display literally clogged with traffic (brown on the ground and blue in the sky). I was told to expedite climb to 4k. I complied and while I was hauling ass up there I could see the reason for it. There was traffic. Once I got up there the traffic was no factor and I was turned on course nbd. I wasn't able to climb to my filed 12k due to various aircraft overtaking me above. I watched a King Air ~2,000 feet above me overtake and then pass ahead. As soon as he was no factor they began stepping me up. Cool to be able to get an idea of why a controller tells us to do something (or doesn't).
On the en route portion of the trip, I was rerouted direct Lamar VOR (LAA) in SE Colorado due to active MOA. Nearing the VOR, I noticed traffic same altitude apparently tracking to the VOR as well. He was WAY out there 15 miles initially but as he closed to 8 and then 5 miles, constant bearing closing range, I could see that I was ahead of him and he'd likely be no factor. ATC never called him out (they didn't need to) and he passed well behind me but I still couldn't find him until just as he passed my 8 to 7 to 6 oclock positions I finally spotted him way out there probably 5 miles.
So thanks to ADS-B I had my head on a swivel in the right direction without ATC's saying a word.
Another thing that is nice about ADS-B overlaid on the map is that you can compare a target's position to ground landmarks and that makes it a LOT easier to find them. In my example, the traffic was between my position and the lake west of Lamar. That was handy to help find him. I figured there had to be some small delay in the position info but still it told me a very precise area to scan.
That's just the traffic portion, which was nigh on useless until I became out-compliant. It is now quite useful... and pretty cool.
The weather part is extremely useful whether one has ADS-B out or not. With the cost of certified aviation stuff through the roof, this is a relatively very cheap way to get WX in flight without a lot of expense.
For most airplanes flying cross-countries and using controlled airspace, I see little reason not to at least equip for ADS-B in.
I flew out of Addison on the Kingdom 9 departure, Wichita Falls transition (KING9.SPS) and it takes you directly over KDFW at 4000. Very amazing to watch the display literally clogged with traffic (brown on the ground and blue in the sky). I was told to expedite climb to 4k. I complied and while I was hauling ass up there I could see the reason for it. There was traffic. Once I got up there the traffic was no factor and I was turned on course nbd. I wasn't able to climb to my filed 12k due to various aircraft overtaking me above. I watched a King Air ~2,000 feet above me overtake and then pass ahead. As soon as he was no factor they began stepping me up. Cool to be able to get an idea of why a controller tells us to do something (or doesn't).
On the en route portion of the trip, I was rerouted direct Lamar VOR (LAA) in SE Colorado due to active MOA. Nearing the VOR, I noticed traffic same altitude apparently tracking to the VOR as well. He was WAY out there 15 miles initially but as he closed to 8 and then 5 miles, constant bearing closing range, I could see that I was ahead of him and he'd likely be no factor. ATC never called him out (they didn't need to) and he passed well behind me but I still couldn't find him until just as he passed my 8 to 7 to 6 oclock positions I finally spotted him way out there probably 5 miles.
So thanks to ADS-B I had my head on a swivel in the right direction without ATC's saying a word.
Another thing that is nice about ADS-B overlaid on the map is that you can compare a target's position to ground landmarks and that makes it a LOT easier to find them. In my example, the traffic was between my position and the lake west of Lamar. That was handy to help find him. I figured there had to be some small delay in the position info but still it told me a very precise area to scan.
That's just the traffic portion, which was nigh on useless until I became out-compliant. It is now quite useful... and pretty cool.
The weather part is extremely useful whether one has ADS-B out or not. With the cost of certified aviation stuff through the roof, this is a relatively very cheap way to get WX in flight without a lot of expense.
For most airplanes flying cross-countries and using controlled airspace, I see little reason not to at least equip for ADS-B in.
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docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
Is there ANYONE here, or anywhere else that hasn't extolled or at least acknowledged the benes of ADS-B IN? I don't think I've ever heard a bad word about it. Good stuff, well presented, aids in traffic control. Great, wonderful, hooray. But - you gotta go give everyone all your info to play.
Have a nice day, not gonna do it.
Have a nice day, not gonna do it.
petrolero
Pattern Altitude
So you never use flight following then?
You're giving them no more info with ADS-B out than that. Everything else they already have.
Whatever you're imagining that could happen with ADS-B could already happen without it if you identify yourself to ATC.
Stewartb
Final Approach
I use ADS-B in via a garmin GDL39-3D. Who is it I'm supposed to be paranoid of? I didn't provide any broadcast info to anyone related to ADS-B but I receive the benefits I want. On the other hand I use an active tracker on the iridium network because having somebody know where I am is the best safety tool (and marriage communication tool) that I've ever found.
I don't fly in the congested environment that some of you do. Thanks for the ADS-B pireps and descriptions, guys. I find it interesting reading.
I don't fly in the congested environment that some of you do. Thanks for the ADS-B pireps and descriptions, guys. I find it interesting reading.
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Bob Noel
Given that I have more than passing knowledge of ADS-B and its faults and its possibilities, I'll be the exception to your belief that flying with ADS-B in will change my mind.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
From many of his previous posts, he rarely uses flight following. So for him he would be giving a lot more info.
I re-read the ADSB requirements and it says
Under the rule, ADS-B Out performance will be required to operate in:
required to operate in:
2. Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL
So we don't need ADS B if we stay below 10,000 feet MSL!!!
There is an additional exception allow non-ADSB aircraft to fly above 10,000MSL if they are within 2500'AGL
So, its no big deal. If you don't have it, just stay below 10,000MSL and you can cross mountains higher so long as you stay below 2500'AGL.
Shoot, I wont need it. This is the way I usually fly anyway. At any rate, most can get by without it, if you want. Not a big deal.
That's the way Im reading it, anyway. Basically, don't need it if I stay below 10kMSL.
IS MY REASONING CORRECT OR NOT???? With all the articles saying we have to have it, now I read we don't really have to have it.?????
Under the rule, ADS-B Out performance will be required to operate in:
- Class A, B, and C.
- Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface.
- Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
- Around those airports identified in 14 CFR part 91, Appendix D.
required to operate in:
2. Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL
So we don't need ADS B if we stay below 10,000 feet MSL!!!
There is an additional exception allow non-ADSB aircraft to fly above 10,000MSL if they are within 2500'AGL
So, its no big deal. If you don't have it, just stay below 10,000MSL and you can cross mountains higher so long as you stay below 2500'AGL.
Shoot, I wont need it. This is the way I usually fly anyway. At any rate, most can get by without it, if you want. Not a big deal.
That's the way Im reading it, anyway. Basically, don't need it if I stay below 10kMSL.
IS MY REASONING CORRECT OR NOT???? With all the articles saying we have to have it, now I read we don't really have to have it.?????
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EdFred
Taxi to Parking
'til ya go VFR over the top, and the clouds keep pushing you higher and higher. I've started at 8500 and had to go to above 10000 many times.
Well I am one of those that hangar my airplane under the mode C veil, so I will be needing it. But really, it will just be a new transponder and GPS antennae, maybe do it for $3000 or so. Sure, if you fly a lot and cruise high, you will want it. But if you don't have it by 2015, its not like you are grounded....
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
Then you call and ask for a clearance. 'Kansas center, Spamcan 12345, 8500 feet NE bound, request 12500 feet for cloud clearance'.
I suppose they could say no.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Then you call and ask for a clearance. 'Kansas center, Spamcan 12345, 8500 feet NE bound, request 12500 feet for cloud clearance'.
I suppose they could say no.
And you would need ADS-B to get it - being over 10k and all.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
Well, you don't NEED it, ATC can grant waivers on the fly as I read the reg. I'm sure they'll ask if you are mode-whatever, and you reply no you are mode-C, and then they give you a squawk or tell you to get bent. Then you declare, tell them you are VFR on top, unable climb due to equip, unable maintain current due to clouds, and tell them you are going to descend straight ahead through the deck to VMC lower.
Easy-peasy.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
But then how do they know for sure where to send the bill for services rendered?
"N12345, you said you were a 152?"
"Affirmative Cessna12345"
"Cessna 345 I show you making 215kts across the ground."
""Must be a hell of a tailwind I'm getting, 345."
Then you call and ask for a clearance. 'Kansas center, Spamcan 12345, 8500 feet NE bound, request 12500 feet for cloud clearance'.
I suppose they could say no.
I'll bet you are one of those guys that think the Army is coming to Texas to take your guns.
nddons
Touchdown! Greaser!
Sidebar: in all my Flightline Ops work at OSH, I've never marshaled or even seen a Sky Arrow. I'd like to see one some time.
Datadriver
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Datadriver
Thanks, now contribute to my ADS-B fund.
B17Rex
Pre-takeoff checklist
Why is it that a topic like this is so divisive? If someone likes having the additional info of ADSB traffic alerts, why would you give them **** and try to persuade them to your point of view? If you don't like it, cool. If someone else does, cool. If someone elses opinion doesn't have an impact on you, why take the time to talk **** to them? Childish if you ask me. Do whatever it is you want, and leave others to do as they please as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.
Me, I fly in San Diego, having something like ADSB give me additional information as to the traffic around me, makes me feel better from a situational awareness position. Of course I know I need to have eyes out the windshield, but having that added piece of information is great. If you don't like it, that is your opinion. Leave the people who do like it to theirs. Freaking kindergartners here I swear. Either your viewpoint or no ones.
-Brian
Me, I fly in San Diego, having something like ADSB give me additional information as to the traffic around me, makes me feel better from a situational awareness position. Of course I know I need to have eyes out the windshield, but having that added piece of information is great. If you don't like it, that is your opinion. Leave the people who do like it to theirs. Freaking kindergartners here I swear. Either your viewpoint or no ones.
-Brian
ollopa
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ollopa
I can't wait to trade in my ADHD for ADSB. Of course all everyone is going to have is ADSB-OUT when what we all want is ADSB-IN. One thing I don't intend to do is sit there staring at my iPad the whole flight.
ollopa
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ollopa
Call it "pilot personality." A lot of pilots are Type A personalities who are used to winning every argument and always being right.
Kindergarteners. Amen
James331
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....It's not having ADSB that is the issue.
It's flying around in CAVU weather in SoCal with a bunch of cirrus drivers who aren't looking out the dang window because they are in a permanent stooper staring lost into their computer screens.
This isn't a problem with all, but it's become more and more of a issue.
B17Rex
Pre-takeoff checklist
Isn't it still incumbent on you to look out for them as well? You can't blame other pilots for not looking out the window when it is still a responsibility on you as a VFR pilot. What about NORDO pilots? They have no idea where you are other than visual separation, and I have had my share of them in busy SoCal airspace. Finding another aircraft among a convoluted visual viewpoint among ground clutter is a challenge no matter what. New technology always presents antagonists who oppose it based on older viewpoints.
My opinion, more information for situational awareness is a good thing. Of course there is still the responsibility to see and avoid no matter what if you are in VMC conditions. Denouncing a new technology across the board is silly in my opinion if it gives more information to all pilots.
Technology or not, there is always going to be an idiot pilot in the air. Blaming that idiocy on new technology is being narrow sighted.
-Brian
James331
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James331
You bet your arse I can blame pilots for not looking out the window in VMC!
No one, especially me, has sad anything bad about the tech, just about how SOME use it.
As I said, both my work plane and my personal plane have traffic, thing is for my VMC traffic scan my eyes are 5% inside on my display, 95% outside looking for the friggin airplane
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B17Rex
Pre-takeoff checklist
You bet you're arse I can blame pilots for not looking out the window in VMC!
No one, especially me, has sad anything bad about the tech, just about how SOME use it.
As I said, both my work plane and my personal plane have traffic, thing is for my VMC traffic scan my eyes are 5% inside on my display, 95% outside looking for the friggin airplane
Touche on that point. But regardless of the latest tech, there are those that will always rely on in cockpit tech instead of eyes out the window. LORAN, VOR, ADBS, whatever the latest is. There have been some harsh slams in this thread about people advocating ADSB saying screw that crap, eyes out the window. I fully support that in VMC that the primary focus should be out the window, but having that additional information is a great tool. I can't even count the times on FF that they have called a traffic alert, even within 2 miles, that I could distinguish given a background of land with sparse housing. Even had a call where they said "recommend IMMEDIATE turn of x degress" and I didn't see the traffic at first.
Just so many people on here lately that if you don't agree with their viewpoint, they slam you. Sad really.
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Bob Noel
Since I'm generally flying a slooooow aircraft, I need the guy behind me to be looking out the window...
James331
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James331
Just fly low.
The magenta kids think anything below 2k AGL they will be killed by the "base to final spin" boogie monster
In the float plane I stay below 2k AGL, outside from around airports I've yet to encounter traffic near my altitude.
docmirror
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Cowboy - yeehah!
Blasphemy sir! That kind of individualism will - not - be - tolerated!
All FF all the time!
Everyone on ADS-B!
Anyone who deviates from the above is a criminal, or at the very least a redneck tin-foil hat govt hating free-thinker. We can't have that now,,, no, no, no. Individualism and personal responsibility are the enemy. Kill it with fire!
Kiddo's Driver
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Jim
Like these guys didn't do when a Lancair hit a 172 from the back quarter:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-ohnd-5_07-cv-03401/pdf/USCOURTS-ohnd-5_07-cv-03401-0.pdf
Which could have been avoided if the Lancair had ADS-B in...
AND if the 172 had ADS-B out...
or if the Lancair pilot had been looking out his windows...
I like what ADS-B can offer. Decouple it from broadcasting my name, rank and serial number, and you still get all of the safety features without all of the big brother features. I'll give it a few more years. Probably 2017 or 2018. Who knows if I will even still be flying by then? Who knows if I will even still own my current plane by then? Who knows if an anonymous solution will be widely available by then? Who knows if the powers that be won't allow a portable solution to do the job by then? I'm not in that big of a rush.
JimNtexas
Pattern Altitude
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Jim - In Texas!
Before the invention of ADS-B there were many pilots who didn't look at the window very much. In fact I'm sure when the four course range system was deployed in 1930 that if you check back in the POA archives you'll find a pilot saying
Here's the deal with ADS-B traffic. It's another tool that lets sharp pilots like you and me get a heads up that there is one of those idiot pilots in their Ryans and Cirri who won't look out the window.
It's a good tool in the sharp pilot toolbox.
Here's the deal with ADS-B traffic. It's another tool that lets sharp pilots like you and me get a heads up that there is one of those idiot pilots in their Ryans and Cirri who won't look out the window.
It's a good tool in the sharp pilot toolbox.
UngaWunga
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UngaWunga
How else do you plan on watching the in-flight movie?
Silvaire
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Silvaire
Man did you read some of that stuff:
What kind of "experts" are we talking about here?
Stingray Don
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Stingray Don
I have had ADS-B Out/In for about 6 months now and I find it very helpful. Obviously, you still need to have eyes outside but the traffic displays more traffic than I ever see with my eyes. With the audio alerts, there is no reason to fixate on the traffic display. I have had several traffic alerts and not all of them have I spotted before the alert. It is definitely a safety improvement.
What is the overwhelming risk you are avoiding at all cost by being immediately identified? You can always pull the breaker if you're on the lamb. If they want to identify you, they will; there will be someone to meet you when you land. They're actually really good at that already and can work you as a primary target for that. If someone really wants to make sure, you'll have an F-16 form up on you and get a visual ID on you.
BTW, you don't need to give any out to receive in.
JimNtexas
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Jim - In Texas!
Freeflight lets you dial in whatever N-number (or other string) you want to advertise.
Datadriver
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Datadriver
A compliant ADS-B out system is still going to be sending out your Mode-S code which is assigned with your N-number on your registration.
TEFLONSEAN
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Teflonsean
Cirrus drivers??
Lots of those on IFR plans....just like me....not a Cirrus driver
Good IFR platform....
Nobody is lost in their screens....
Please refrain from the ignorance of POA that glass will kill you.
How many air to air have you seen because of glass??? Please enlighten me
![brian]](/community/data/avatars/m/21/21096.jpg?1456258959){kind=avatar}
brian]
Cleared for Takeoff
My only concern about ADSB is the reliance on GPS. Funding levels on those satellites will likely be adequate now due to the huge small user base. But one solar event could cause big issues while you are airborne. Although theoretical, it would make for a bad day....
Lindberg
Final Approach
What about those of us who won't show up on there? Your course in the screen shot would take you directly through an area worth "intensive glider activity." None of them will show up on your screen. We'd prefer that you be looking outside. I don't know where each pilot is looking when they buzz through, but I do know that it frequently isn't outside.
Unit74
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Unit74
I take it you are completely unaware that GBR feeds into the system? And I highly doubt you are soaring in Class B airspace.
You are changing the facts, in turn, changing the out come.
